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Reading the Hexagram on its own, without the text

mryou1

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Does anyone else do this? I find that everybody on here seems to go almost solely by text (which don't get me wrong, is a wonderful book of Taoist wisdom that I wholeheartedly respect), when a lot can be interpreted straight from the pure source. The lines.

Usually my process goes something like this:

1. Read the general shape of the hexagram. Basically like working with a Rorschach test.

2. Read the doubling of the lines. My process is:

THE ACTIONS
2 yang means "making change"
2 yin means "accepting change"

THE STATES
1 yang then 1 yin means "peace" or "good fortune"
1 yin then 1 yang means "stagnation" or "misfortune"

The first two places stand for THE PAST or THE FOUNDATION
The middle two stand for THE PRESENT or THE CURRENT ACTION OR STATE
The top two stand for THE FUTURE or THE OUTER
below and above these places are ethereal, mysterious areas. I've often toyed with the idea that below the foundation is the mystery of the spirit and above the outer is the mystery of the meaning of existence (be it God, the Tao, or the cosmos). But it mainly simply represents the unknown below THE PAST and the unknown above THE FUTURE.

2 yin carries what's above to what's below
2 yang carries what's below to what's above

Now if you begin to use this process, you might find that it tends to match up very well with the typical meanings of certain hexagrams. Just something to try.

3. Read the trigrams.

My interpretation of this is sometimes (but not always, it depends on the hexagram) that it's like "zooming in" on the THE PRESENT. You see how you you are relating to THE FOUNDATION through the lower trigram, and THE OUTER through the upper trigram.

4. Read the text itself.

And I do all 4 of these steps with the idea that the 1st hexagram changes to the 2nd through its "old lines", so they're both equally important.

Does anyone else here read the hexagrams on their own? I feel kind of alone here reading through the (nonetheless insightful) comments... :(

edit: also, if you do, I'm very interested in hearing your process as well
 
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pocossin

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Does anyone else here read the hexagrams on their own? I feel kind of alone here reading through the (nonetheless insightful) comments...

You aren't alone, but even if you were, that's not such a bad thing because you will go places where others have never been. Really, difference is welcomed at Clarity. If you read by an unconventional method, Hilary requests that you put a link to an explanation in your signature, as I have done. No point in mystifying people. I do not ignore the text but often get a reading without considering it based solely on the connotation (aura) of the querent's presentation and the meanings of the hexagrams in the King Wen Sequence.
 
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Thanks for sharing your process. I am not sure what I do yet exactly :).

I like to read the words that are from the original ideagram (Oracle Bone Inscriptions).

I sometimes go straight to LiSe's website ( http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html )and she has them explained and with pictures of each one and the dissection of the characters.

Or I will go to Karcher's Plain and Simple book ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/000716565X/qid%3D1148761162 ) where he doesn't have the picture of the ideagram, but the explaination/definition of the ideagram and all of the words associated. Karcher also has the bigger book with extensive meanings, but I am sticking to the simpler one for now and trying to get my own feel.

I would like to be at a point where I can see the ideagrams in my mind without the help of an outside source and get an impression of the advice for the situation within my mind first and then of course refer to wonderful resources.

After the ideagrams, I grab a couple different favorites for commentary etc.

Oh, I have also been reading the Relating hexagram first. It seems to be working for me personally. I will read the relating hexagram first and consider what it means in relation to my present situation. It usually tells me an emotion I am feeling or where I am at in the situation. Then I proceed with the primary hexagram and the lines.

1. Relating hexagram's Ideagram.
2. Primary hexagram's Ideagram.
3. Relating hexagram's Image and Commentary etc.
4. Primary hexagram's Image and Commentary etc.
5. Primary hexagram's Line's and Commentary.
(some of the etc is the Sequence and Nuclear hexagram)

An instance where the Ideagram really was all I needed, was in 59 and the character which LiSe describes as a man using a stick to poke around at an entrance of a cave. LiSe and Karcher both say the Ideagram includes the sign for water and the sign for expand (amongst other things). Together that seemed to set my answer free, with the line advice added into the mix. A big picture of understanding for me. It was like I knew the answer before reading onward and it was triggered by the Ideagram... or at least flowed off of it. Does that make sense?



Every once in a while I will find myself in a hurry and skip to the Line Translation first and go backwards. It's me wanting to get the juice first. :blush: It's an anxiety fear based approach..

Take care,
AQ
 

heylise

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I begin my reading first without any text. When I am casting the lines, I move from one to the next, during their appearance. Line 1, which is pure earth, the 'matter' of what I can do or need to know. Yang means I will have to be active, yin - receptive. Second line, relations, but close by, simple - same. Line 3, emotions. Line 4 decisions, the mind. Line 5 again relations but more in a kind of overview, the ruler who - well - rules. Line 6, the spirit. Yang: think actively about this, explore it and so on. Or yin: stand back, find out, let things/ideas come to you instead of going towards them.

If lines are old, they get more emphasis, they are points of focus. Like AQ, I read the relating hex as the background or situation I am in. The lines of the first hex as guidelines for what I can do or should not do. My attitude (first hex) in this situation (second hex), how to make it as good as it can be. This means reading the text, but the yin or yang quality of the lines comes before any text.

I look at the trigrams and how they change. The inner as what changes in me, the outer outside, in my actions, or in what can change. Not especially as now and future, I don't enter any time-line into my reading. My cast is 'now'. The advice is only for now, and only my actions can change the future, the Yi tells me nothing about it. Tells me only about what is the best course of action. The change is also 'now', as if I carry both with me and give them both and in combination the space to develop.
 
C

cjgait

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That text-free method is interesting and I feel the echoes of the old ways in it. By that I mean the methods used to up interpret the oracle bone readings before there was a written text (if there was a text, it's not extant now, anyway only the individual readings in the Yin/Shang archives). I spend a lot of time studying the figures by meditating on them, a system called Yi Dao meditation.
 

notatirem

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I contemplate different things depending on my intuition in the moment, I guess my usual approach is...

Identify the trigrams and visualize the images. Is the upper or the lower changing? or both?

I spend a lot of time meditating of the name of the hexagram, the character. I try to recall as much as I can about the hexagram before I go to the text. But I always do go to the text. I like Wengu a lot and usually end up on Zhendic sifting through the breakdown of the characters. I doodle them in my sketch book until they turn into something else.

Usually I consider the first hexagram a reiteration of the question as the yi understood it "Is this the thing you are asking?" The individual lines are the considerations. The resulting hexagram is the reality I am missing.

I find it much easier to read for someone other than myself. The answer is always very clear, hahaha. I have a tendency to delude myself. Sometimes the answer is just a number or a picture. But when I am attached to a different outcome I will search and search for other possible meanings.
 

meng

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I have no method. To me a reading is like the wind, sun and rain. There's no particular method of determining its meanings, other than to let the elements fall over me and observe my response to it, my identity with it: sometimes to go inside and seek shelter, sometimes to let it soak in, sometimes to move on in the midst of it. I am an extension of the elements in that given moment in time and space. Sometimes they tell me go, sometimes stay, sometimes work, sometimes play. They rarely tell me what I don't already know. More like the echo which comes from yelling into a cave or canyon. Usually if I listen carefully, the answer is in the question; that is, in myself. The echo is a confirmation, a crane calling from the shade. We share the cup of wine together.
 

charly

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Maybe the reading of Jou Tsung Hwa should be profitable:

jou-tsung-hwa.jpg

JOU TSUNG-HWA

Source: the official site.
http://www.taichipark-masterjoutsunghwa.org/

Yours,


Charly

PD:
From Steve Marshall's page on the Way to Divination:
The introduction includes a version of the yarrow stalk ritual I have seen nowhere else, and a description of the Plum Blossom method. Also a treatment of the phases of the moon in terms of yin and yang.

Source:
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/survey.htm

In the web there are pdf, some with scanning errors.
http://es.scribd.com/doc/19231287/Tao-of-I-ChingTaoismJou-Tsung-Hwa

Ch.
 
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meng

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I guess Charly didn't like that I liked his loafers in the earlier pictures. Sorry for being so superficial, Charly, but they were nice looking loafers. In my old business, it was always said you tell a man's character by the shoes he wears.
 

charly

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I guess Charly didn't like that I liked his loafers in the earlier pictures. Sorry for being so superficial, Charly, but they were nice looking loafers. In my old business, it was always said you tell a man's character by the shoes he wears.
Hi, Bruce:

I only changed my mind before seeing your comment. Here is the YOUNG JOU wearing loafers:


Noting superficial in your assert:

Men who like to wear loafers ...

He is a man who works related to finance, banking, or insurance. If your boyfriend often wear shoes of this type, it means that he hoped the serious with your relationship.

Source: Know the personality of a man through his favorite shoes
http://www.atengstyle.com/tips/know-the-personality-of-a-man-through-his-favorite-shoes

I don´t understand people that say FINANCE is something SERIOUS, in what world do they live?

All the best,

Charly
 

charly

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Hi, Bruce:

Huang Di loafers:

Huang Ti was able to lead an amazing life. His reign as emperor lasted a hundred years. He had a hundred wives. Eventually he became an immortal and rode off to heaven on the back of a dragon.

When the people saw him riding away, they called out for him to stay. And so, as a final gift to them, Huag Ti dropped down his shoes. A tomb said to contain the shoes still exists ...

Da Liu: T'Ai Chi Ch'Uan and Meditation

I always wondered what were the things fallen fron the sky. I didn´t think on shoes. Sometimes I thinked women.

Da Liu says HIS SHOES, maybe the Yellow Emperor had THOUSAND WIVES but only a PAIR OF LOAFERS.

Two loafers in the feet, thousand wifes in the mind.



All the best.

Charly
 

dharmamom

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I begin my reading first without any text. When I am casting the lines, I move from one to the next, during their appearance. Line 1, which is pure earth, the 'matter' of what I can do or need to know. Yang means I will have to be active, yin - receptive. Second line, relations, but close by, simple - same. Line 3, emotions. Line 4 decisions, the mind. Line 5 again relations but more in a kind of overview, the ruler who - well - rules. Line 6, the spirit. Yang: think actively about this, explore it and so on. Or yin: stand back, find out, let things/ideas come to you instead of going towards them.

If lines are old, they get more emphasis, they are points of focus. Like AQ, I read the relating hex as the background or situation I am in. The lines of the first hex as guidelines for what I can do or should not do. My attitude (first hex) in this situation (second hex), how to make it as good as it can be. This means reading the text, but the yin or yang quality of the lines comes before any text.

I look at the trigrams and how they change. The inner as what changes in me, the outer outside, in my actions, or in what can change. Not especially as now and future, I don't enter any time-line into my reading. My cast is 'now'. The advice is only for now, and only my actions can change the future, the Yi tells me nothing about it. Tells me only about what is the best course of action. The change is also 'now', as if I carry both with me and give them both and in combination the space to develop.

Lise, I find your method very interesting but do you think you could explain it with more details? What exactly do the original, the mutual and the resulting hexagram mean to you in this reading? And what if the texts do not quite much the information you get from the lines? And why specifically in that order, I mean, why relations in the second place or emotions in the third? What's exactly "relations - an overview- in the fifth?If I want to consult about something in the future, how do I deal with this idea of no time-line? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to apply your method in my readings.:bows:
 

heylise

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HERE you can find an overview of how I see line-places. Bottom line, second, third and so on. It is possible to see them as a sequence in time, but I think time is very limited. Of course we need it all the time, but intuition, feelings, guts, insight, all these things have little to do with it, usually. And they are most of all what we search for in the Yi.

What is the mutual hexagram? :confused:

The first hexagram I look at, is the resulting hex. For me that is the situation. I can change that to its best way - or to the worst - or anything in between. It is what it is all about. It can be an eye-opener, or comfort (Yi sees the trouble you're in, so calm down, we'll try to do something about it together), or insight into my question (is it really the one I need to know about?).

After that comes the first hexagram. It shows me what I can do, should do, or shouldn't do. The possibilities I have, the tools. The text of the lines is important, but also the hexagram this line would change into. Hex.5 line 5 changes to 11, that is a very different way of waiting than 5.4 changing to 43. Very different advice.

The trigrams tell about deeper layers. In hex.5 trigram water changes to earth when line 5 moves. Makes sense with 5.5 to 11. Line 4 makes trigram water change to lake and this line's resulting hex. is 43, the way you speak out to others.

I never ask about a future time, in that respect I cannot make sense of any answer. I only ask about how I can make the futre as positive as I can. There are people who can use the Yi to predict, but for me that is kind of counter-intuitive. I don't want to have a predicted future, I want to follow my dao, and not to be carried on any course. Dao is about every step you take every moment, not about where the road happens to go. Each step opens a diferent future.

This is only my own view. For everyone the Yi has its own use, and since we are all different, they are all different as well.
 

dharmamom

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Thank you, Lise. I always consult your text for my readings but forgot to read your explanation of the structure of the hexagrams. The mutual hexagram is the nuclear hexagram, the one which is made up of lines 2, 3 and 4, and then 3, 4 and five for the lower and upper trigrams respectively. I don't see you alluding to the nuclear hexagram in your site, by the way. Is it not important to you?
 

heylise

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I can see where the nuclear hexagram makes sense, but in my own life I never use it. In a hexagram the lines are related to earth-earth-man-man-heaven-heaven. The trigrams to earth-man-heaven.
That makes them in a hexagram:

heaven-heaven
heaven-man
man-earth
man-heaven
earth-man
earth-earth

So there are two lines which don't deal with "human" affairs, and they are omitted in the nuclear hexagram. For me, these two lines are indispensable in everything I do. But for many people they are less important. If you want to know about the kids, or a salary-raise, or a disagreement, or does-he-love-me, or how can I be useful to the world-now, then the lines which contain "man" may very well be enough. I cannot say anything about that, because I only ask for answers which also deal with pure heaven and pure earth.

Why that is so for me - that is not really easy to explain. It has to do with the life I lived for the past 40 years, and which is also the source of my Yi-website. I myself could never have made that.
 

hilary

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Last week I spoke to someone who'd just joined a heart-centred business forum I belong to. She described her only encounter with Yi like this:

Someone told her that the I Ching was made of sixty-something ways of looking at your soul. That intrigued her, so she searched online, and found a chart (of the hexagrams - not that she knew the word). She looked at them, saw the one that felt right for her, read its text and found it described her experience and feelings of the moment.

Nothing to add!
 

peter_liu

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To answeredquestions,

In April 12th, 2012, 01:30 PM , You wrote about 59 Scattering as follow:
An instance where the Ideagram really was all I needed, was in 59 and the character which LiSe describes as a man using a stick to poke around at an entrance of a cave.
Here is Original Text on website (http://yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html):
HUÀN: At the left side of the character water or a river, at the right side a character meaning lively, excellent, gay, beautiful. It is a drawing of a man (1), at the entrance of a cave (2), looking sharp
around (3: a big eye) with a stick in his hand. The old form is the smaller character above (1). The way this right side was written later, like in the character at the top, means looking sharp at something while passing it from hand to hand (like in a market).
HUÀN: disperse, expand, scatter, ample.
There are two translations about Gua Poem of Hexagram 59.
①Gua Poem:
Dispersion, expansion
The king serves the temple
Harvest: wading the great river
Harvest: determination
②59.0,Scattering
Fulfillment
The sovereign approches his temple
Worthwhile to cross the great stream
Worthwhile to be dedicated
In my opinion, the primary hexagram not only tells us about scattering, but also tells us about accumulation or to united. why does the sovereign approch his temple? First of all, temple is holy place which citizen worship. They are god-fearing men and come to here for one aim and one faith. So did the King Wen.The King Wen held ceremonies to worship heaven on Mount Qi every year and called together other kingdoms to worship heaven. The purpose of it is to unite them for one faith, avoiding situation of scattering. There are six lines in Hexagram 59. Every line tells us different situation of disunity and also gives us solution on how to reunite.
 
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In my opinion, the primary hexagram not only tells us about scattering, but also tells us about accumulation or to united. why does the sovereign approch his temple? First of all, temple is holy place which citizen worship. They are god-fearing men and come to here for one aim and one faith. So did the King Wen.The King Wen held ceremonies to worship heaven on Mount Qi every year and called together other kingdoms to worship heaven. The purpose of it is to unite them for one faith, avoiding situation of scattering. There are six lines in Hexagram 59. Every line tells us different situation of disunity and also gives us solution on how to reunite.

Hi, do you think this because 'the king approaches his temple' ('王假有廟') is also in Gua 45? Sounds like what you describe above is more geared towards the situation of 45, where 59 would be purposefully scattering to avoid getting stuck into one mode of closed-minded thinking and instead to broaden the aim. Why does the king approach the temple? :blush: I am not sure, but can take a stab. He decides to scatter as an example, and also to be in line with all of the rest of his people, for a purpose bigger than one god.
 

peter_liu

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File:Mist2007.jpg


I just share you something different. Every coin has two sides.

Hexagram 59 tells us different situations of disunity and also gives us solution on how to reunite.

45.1, 1st 6,
Being true is not the end of it
If confused, then pull together
As a cry for help
And one helping hand restore good humor
Do not worry
Progress is not an error
45.1x If confused, then pull together:
One's directions are confused (by Bradford Hatcher)

Being true not to the end. Then chaos, then gathering. Like when crying, one handful restores laughing. Do not worry. To proceed is without fault. (by LiSe Heyboer)

Hex.45 tells us different situations of gathering and there are some scattering in gathering. What will happen when people is gathering? There are two probabilities in it. One is to separate and the other is to reunite.

Being true is not the end of it (by Bradford Hatcher)
Being true not to the end.(by LiSe Heyboer)
'有孚不終'

45.1, 1st 6 means the begaining of gathering. The lower trigram of hex.45 is Kun and Kun is accepting and not decision-maker. Dispite Kun has a good faith, it is waiting so long and there is no sign of stoping waiting in the outside.Yin Yao must across two another Yin Yao before it meets Yang Yao (the decision-maker). 1st 6 is tired of it and gives up and good faith will decay .

If confused, then pull together (by Bradford Hatcher)
Like when crying, one handful restores laughing. (by LiSe Heyboer)
'乃亂乃萃'

The lower trigram tells us situations of inside and the upper trigram tells us situations of outside. It is not good that 1st 6 is Yin Yao at position of Yang. The Yang situation urgently needs Yao person (the decision-maker), not accepter. In other word, the outside is very urgent, maybe a war or disaster, but people inside are all accepter and can do nothing about it and the only thing they can do is waiting for the great man never come and quarreling with each other .Chaos is accumulating, for there is no leader in there. Worse, more accepter is coming and it is getting more crowded inside. There is no bad situation than that.

And one helping hand restore good humor
Do not worry
Progress is not an error (by Bradford Hatcher)
Like when crying, one handful restores laughing. Do not worry. To proceed is without fault. (by LiSe Heyboer)
'若號,一握為笑,勿恤,往有咎'

They cry out for help in an emergency. Who will help them? The answer is 45.4, 9 4th. 45.1, 1st 6 is the first line of the lower trigram and 45.4, 9 4th is the first line of the upper trigram. If they are different, they can help each other. Otherwise, they can't. why? it's long story, just as like charges repel each other, unlike charges attract. So does magnet. Yang Yao of 45.4, 9 4th is the decision-maker and comes down to help Yin Yao of 45.1, 1st 6 when he heard of her crying. It's amazing. In the end, Yang Yao and Yin Yao shake hand each other and rejoice to the acceptable result. This
is reason why result is "Do not worry. To proceed is without fault." Does it make sense?

One's directions are confused
‘其志亂也’

If they have direction, everything is OK. At the begaining, they can't wait anymore and lose the faith and got confuesd, for no one ponit them in the right direction. At last, they find their leader and everything is clear. What a vividly picture of gathering is !There is crying, laughing,worry,sincerity in it.In my opinion, the situation of 45.1, 1st 6 is like the scene describled by the film named 《The Mist》which is directed by Frank Darabont and also known as Stephen King's The Mist.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mist) If the human being don't know what thing behind the mist for long time, they will lose their faith sooner or later, just as Jesus said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"(Mark 4:40)
 
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I've noticed one way to obtain balance in the pieces and parts of my life is to explore the entire spectrum of an aspect. Assessing and realizing where I had begun naturally at one end of a spectrum, and then searching for balance, I first found that I explored the opposite end of that spectrum. Then naturally I fell back, but not the entire way, instead into the middle. Knowing the entire spectrum of an aspect of life is a good way to understanding where you truly and personally fit in. For instance, how can someone feel freedom without once having felt oppressed? I think this goes along with what you are saying, we find unity through scattering and the flip (which seems very 13 to me at this specific time).
 

meng

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how can someone feel freedom without once having felt oppressed?

I once sat at the feet of Sri Swami Satchidananda while he argued his case that sadness is not necessary in order to experience bliss. I don't think he could have made such an argument for happiness. The difference is unity vs duality.
 

blackred

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the essence...

I suppose that by studying and meditating on the 8 original archetypes of the trigrams would give good, though basic, insight into the hexagram meanings WITHOUT text readings, and, would give a "ground up" perspective. The 8 archetypes defined by the symbols of Heaven, Earth, Wind, Thunder, Fire, Water, Lake and Mountain correspond to the 8 phases of the moon, and the poetic language of the symbols reveal the precise meaning attributed to these individual markings of time. These markings of nature reflect our own inner rhthym. To understand how our inner "Soul Being" connects to this planet according to its own cycles, and, coming to know that we are mediators between Heaven and Earth, destined. for the purpose of transmitting the Divine; the Above to the material earth; Below is the higher purpose for all forms of divination. The archetypes are universal, substantiated by the markings of time which reveals them to our inner being. "Thunder" actually has a numerical value, and means something deep in the psyche of Man. its line formation explains this meaning, and its position in THE CIRCLE difines its relation to the whole. Of course, a thorough understanding of the individual archetypes is just the beginning. It is wonderful to learn more about the "system" of the individual lines, both analyzed individually, AND syntesized. It makes some sense that the first two lines refer to the past; the middle two, to the present; and the top two to the future, or, how the first line relates to "me", the second line to a simple relationship, the third to emotions, the forth to a decision- mind, the fifth to the ruling psition of a relationship, and so on. But is there a concensus on these meanings?
 

forty two

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Intresting talk here :)

I do it very similar to heylise, but that is the way I do my reading now and in a couple of years it will be different again, I guess.

The more one knows about I Ching details (meaning of positions, relations, symbols, historical background etc.) the more his/her reading will change.

When I was young I only read the words and tried to understand with intuition and with my mind as well as possible. Later I have read the Material (2nd Book) and could get a much deeper understanding and after that I discovered the third book (the commentaries) which is especially intresting for people who ask a question concerning their relation ship ;)

So the 3rd Book brought additional insights, and now I deal with interpretation of others and the knowledge of other ones who also work with the I Ching. That`s why I am here :) For to get inspired by others and their experiances and insights. I`m also interested into historical details, because I`m pretty sure that would also help to uptake the whole (more ;)) meaning.

@pocossin: Really loved what you said to mryu1 :) I think same way. Everybody should find his own way to talk with (you call it) Yi. The I Ching has it`s own intelligence, if there is some changing needed, there will be. It is such a personally issue that there can`t be a "wrong" way of reading.

@mryu1:Like pocossin already said: "Don`t worry" :cool::) And thanks a lot for telling us your way of getting in contact. I find it very intresting and I will go on consider about it.

@meng: Also liked what you said. I`m feeling same way about the echo. The End of the whole story should be to be flawless without needing to ask the I Ching. To be in tune with Dao all the time without any effort and/or intention.

That`s probably why the Taoists are a bit amused about the I Ching "Freaks" lol. But even the Taiosts mentioned the I Ching as something which is needed on the way for a certain time at least. I like to call it the hitchhikers guide on the spiritual way. It corrects me, helps me to change a destructive direction when I tend to lose myself. At least as long as I think of a self ;) Or do have got the illusion of a self like the bhuddist would say.

Once (a couple of years ago) I tried a while to be flawless without consulting the I Ching...... :rofl: OH MY!!!! Wasn`t my best idea. So, for the moment I need to look at the mirror (I Ching) for to STAY on the right track.

@charly: I`m not sure what you mean with blossom method, just have a clue. Do you mean something like this:

14. >>>>>>>>50.>>>>>>>>>56.>>>>>>>>52.>>>>>>>>>15.
-----x----->>>------x----->>>------x---->>>-----x------>>>----- -----
---- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- -----
-----x----->>>-----x------>>>-----x----->>>----- ----->>>----- -----
----------->>>------------>>>------------>>>------------>>>------------
-----x----->>>------x----->>>----- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- -----
-----x----->>>------ ----->>>----- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- -----

If "yes": I supposed this would be the normal way (??). I already wondered about some of you write 14. 1.2.4.6 > 15. Well, that is right, but the changes (between) are missing (???). Sorry for this horrible trial to SHOW what I mean :blush:

@blackred: That`s exactly what I meant with: The more one knows about the details and meanings...the understanding will grow by time.

To all others who I don`t mention personally here: That has been all very intresting for me. I guess I really was isolated much too long and I see that you all are very open, peaceful and seriously. I`m glad to be here :)

Cheers Yvonne
 

charly

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Intresting talk here :)
...
@charly: I`m not sure what you mean with blossom method, just have a clue. Do you mean something like this:

14. >>>>>>>>50.>>>>>>>>>56.>>>>>>>>52.>>>>>>>>>15.
-----x----->>>------x----->>>------x---->>>-----x------>>>----- -----
---- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- -----
-----x----->>>-----x------>>>-----x----->>>----- ----->>>----- -----
----------->>>------------>>>------------>>>------------>>>------------
-----x----->>>------x----->>>----- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- -----
-----x----->>>------ ----->>>----- ----->>>----- ----->>>----- -----

If "yes": I supposed this would be the normal way (??). I already wondered about some of you write 14. 1.2.4.6 > 15. Well, that is right, but the changes (between) are missing (???). Sorry for this horrible trial to SHOW what I mean :blush:
...
Hi, Ivonne:

It looks pretty well but I don´t know.

I only advice to read Sherrill, Da Liu and Jou Tsung Hwa for people interested in Plum Blossom Method, even I advice to read Harmen Mesker.

But I believe that if there is a normal way nowadays is CASTING COINS.

About H.14 going to H.15, I hardly read the second hexagram, I could do all sort of mistakes, but I don´t remember.

About H.14 GREAT POSSESSION, let me say that FIRE atop of the SKY has something to do with the SUN, solar worship, even, maybe, hidden allusion to phallic worship, solar clocks and the like.


大有
GREAT POSSESSION
t also means mighty / powerful and, maybe, big endowment (1).

元亨
MAIN FEAST.
Principal celebration.​

It could mean that solar worship has high hyerarchy among all the rites.

The commentary says that the FLEXIBLE / SOFT gets honor place and great CENTRALITY, it is in the focus.

And that UP & DOWN responds to it. It RULES the HIGH and the LOW. It is at least curious that be called WEAK.

And about H.15, MODESTY, MOUNT below the EARTH, keeping still even inside the EARTH below the supreme yin force means a STUBORN DEFENSE OF FREEDOM.

MODEST RODENT, Rutt´s «RAT»


謙亨
MODESTY FEASTS
Celebration of modesty.
When Mice enjoy ...


君子有終
GENTLEMEN HAVE END.
Young nobles are finite, they wil not last forever.
... CATS shall move away..

The comentary begins so:

謙亨,
MODESTY FEAST
Little pride but big enjoy.

天道下濟而光明,
HEAVENLY WAY (IS) UNDER HELP BUT PROMISING.
Yang force needs help but promises.

地道卑而上行。
EARTHLY WAY (IS) HUMBLE BUT HIGHLY CAPABLE.
Yin force is modest but fulfills.

Things are not what they seem and words say more that they want.:eek:


All the best,


Charly
__________________________
(1) The characters 大有 depict a BIG MAN and a HAND wIth a PIECE OF MEAT, but that´s another story.
Ch.
 
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forty two

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Hi Charly,
I tried to figure out what you mean with plum blossom method. Wow that`s entirely new for me!!! Sounds intresting, but honestly I`m already happy, when I get the meaning by asking the I Ching on the normal way *lol*. But I`m sure I will deal with it in the future. Thanks for the hint :)

Thanks also for your...interpretation (or what is it?) on my "sketches", it is not an oracle, it was just for to show you what I mean.

About 14: The 5th line is weak, but it became strong through/by (?) the TRUST (and support) of all other Yang ;)The 5 Yang only trust it, because it`s "weak", not dangerous for the 5 Yang. AND it is honoured so it must be a STRONG Personality. So we can start again a nice discussion about: What is weak and what is strong? *lol*.

I would see it as a strong Character which turns out soft. Strong principles, soft acting.

To all: I would like to say that I don`t see the flexible, the weak as the weak we use it in western language. If we use the word weak in western language we always mean something not good. I eastern language it is just the opposite of Yang. One of the two basic forces and there is never meant "something not good". Aaarrgh can`t put my thoughts in english language... I hope you know what I mean.

A question: I asked myself if there is a english translation of the I Ching and I don`t mean a english translation of the Richard Wilhelm translation but one direct translation from the original I Ching, do you have a clue?? Could be very intresting and helpful for my plans to talk with you all ;) As far as I know Richard Wilhelm was the only german Author who translated the I Ching into german (if someone knows it better, please tell me), but I guess he was not the only one in the world, at least I hope *lol*.

You must see: I was all alone with my I Ching 22 years. An Isle. Now I came here and read and see things I never have seen and read before. On one hand I`m very experianced, because I Ching and me is one, day by day, since 22 years, but on the other hand I almost have non knowledge about all the things AROUND the I Ching like books, movies, persons, methods and so on. I hope to fill this gab with the help of the community. So don`t wonder about "strange" questions from my side, keep in mind that I`m at leat a I Ching community beginner.

Cheers Yvonne
 

jilt

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dear,

I think the lines present a basic language. Language cannot go without any interpretation, lest it isn't a language. Language is never without meaning, it carries meaning. We think in language, it goes with association and metaphors, every statement in language (also a line is a statement) goes with context, else a statement cannot be made at all, it would be in vain.
So, before you know a chicken-egg (61-2) exchange comes into existence: did Fu Hsi see the trigrams on the back of turtles and then made interpretations, or did he have a broad interpreting ground and in that fertile ground those new line-things could blossom?
The lines in itself are already judgements, they are yin or yang (broad terms with a rich and wide field of interpretations, as can be seen above) etc. Words add another layer of judgement. Judgements give direction, they say what it is and what it is not. Judgement is given by language. Perhaps judgement and definition are synonymous in this case.
Languge can be defined by two poles:
1 a system of arbitrary conventions. this is more about formal language as we know it, a real hex 6-5 definition.
2 language is behavour-tuning. this is more about body-language, the tone of voices, patterns in (our) nature that make the music of the spheres: resonation
 
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C

cjgait

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Words and Figures

Kongzi (Confucius) said: "The Master said, "I have been the whole day without eating, and the whole night without sleeping; occupied with thinking. It was of no use. The better plan is to learn." (Analects 15:31). In many places in the Analects he rejects excess and falling short. So what he is saying here as related to meditating on the figures of the Yi is, IMO, don't get carried away with extreme forms of asceticism, meditate in due measure and learn/read the words of the ancient sages in due measure. In Yi Dao (易道), as I call my personal path, there are daily readings that, along with meditating on the figures of the Yi, form the core of the practice. I cast a lesson text of the day from the Yi in the morning and in the evening read a portion of text from the Analects, one from the 'Wings' of the Yi as well as another of the classics or teachers (I just finished Xunzi and am now working thorugh the Classic of Rites (Li Ji).

As to interpreting the figures for divination I am not a specialist there. At this point in my life I am more interested in the philosophy of the Yi than in its use in divination. I do divine at times, though. I obtain an answer using a certain method to reduce the texts read to one or two and decide based on those. I examine the figures, of course, because they form a picture of the situation that goes beyond words. As the Great Treatise says:

The Master said:
'Writing does not fully convey speech.
Speech does not fully convey meaning.'
Can we then not fully know the sages' meaning?
The Master said:
'The sages arranged figures to convey all meanings;
invented hexagrams to convey truth and deviance;
and added oracles to convey all in words.
(XiCi 1:12:2)
 

charly

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dear,

I think the lines present a basic language. Language cannot go without any interpretation, lest it isn't a language. Language is never without meaning, it carries meaning. We think in language, it goes with association and metaphors, every statement in language (also a line is a statement) goes with context, else a statement cannot be made at all, it would be in vain...
Hi, Bert:
Of course, reading without a text is not reading without language.

Even meanings attached to iconic signs have some sort of linguistic base. There is oral tradition which must heve beenn decisive in divination before developed script.

All the best,

Charly
 

meng

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Language cannot go without any interpretation, lest it isn't a language. Language is never without meaning, it carries meaning. We think in language, it goes with association and metaphors, every statement in language (also a line is a statement) goes with context, else a statement cannot be made at all, it would be in vain.

mmm, I'm not so sure of this, and as an artist yourself, I'm a little surprised at your use of the words language and meaning. Can you say about each of your art pieces, this is a language which has meaning? I sure can't, which is why I define what I play as "no music". You, as a listener may interpret what it says to you, but that's your interpretation, the meaning you have given to what I have played. Music, dance, art of all kinds stirs the hearts and minds of mankind, usually as locally interpreted. But when I play, and it is a language, I'm with you there, but the language says, in what we typically call language, what it says to the listener, and listeners hear things differently.

So, it may be a statement, or it may have no intended language or meaning at all to the one who creates it, it may just be no-music to them.

Also, I usually think in dream-like moving pictures, conversations and scenarios, not so much in words, other than a script for the actors to follow.

But I like your entire post, even if it doesn't match my way of thinking.
 

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