"In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it.[6] These beliefs can cause a person to experience an irrational fear of performing certain acts or having certain thoughts because of an assumed correlation between doing so and threatening calamities.[1]"

Is this the right place to talk about magical thinking? I asked the IC about the principle behind magical thinking. The answer was 60.1.2.3 to 39.

60 limitations
60.1 keeping within what is familiar
60.2 not acting when action is necessary
60.3 lamenting (the past)
39 hardship or limping

Looks like a pretty straight forward answer. First, the origin. 60, limitations. We encounter restrictions. These limits are there for us so we can thrive and progress. In a way, harsh reality has spoken and we need to change or at least find a way of dealing with reality.

What now? 60.1, we don't understand reality, so we try to solve this problem thru magical thinking. Instead of tackling reality and its horns directly (as adults or mature people tend to do), we fall into a fallacious way of thinking which will lead us to hex 29. We need to move!

60.2 (29.2) timing is important, action is required. Are we taking action in timely manner? Nope. We do not go out of the gate (opportune action) and fall into the ravine. Emotions and doubts are running the show, leading to inefficacious behaviour. Divination is here to help us, but if we don't move, we get into danger.

60.3 (8.3) the past becomes a burden and instead of solving our problems thru correct actions, we associate with the wrong kind of people, ideas or situations. We blame others (external locus, psychotic) instead of owning up to our mistakes (internal locus, neurotic). This brings sorrow and laments.

The related hex 39 shows where this faulty cognitive fallacy leads us or from where we are coming from. Obstacles and more obstacles, reality becomes a drag. The hidden line 39.4 indicates what will happen if we continue on this path. Overthinking cannot help us. We need to come back to earth, to face reality.

What do you see here?

*Quotes above are from Wikipedia, see "magical thinking", sources below
(1) Bennett, Bo. "Magical Thinking". Logically Fallacious.
(6) Colman, Andrew M. (2012). A Dictionary of Psychology (3rd ed.). Oxford University Press

Dracon said:

Is this the right place to talk about magical thinking?

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It seems you mostly want to discuss the reading, so I wonder if Shared Readings would be a better place? I could move it there.

Interesting topic. What was the focus of your question? Did you mostly mean what is the principle, how would Yi define it? How/whether people could make use of it, benefit from it or approach it properly? Yi's opinion?

Dracon said:

its horns

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Where do you get horns? There are horns in several places in the I Ching but not in this reading that I know of.

As for this...

Dracon said:

60.1...which will lead us to hex 29

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Dracon said:

60.2 (29.2)

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Dracon said:

60.3 (8.3)

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For anyone who doesn't recognize that procedure (it took me a minute), it seems Dracon's using what's called the transitional hexagram method. Please see Prismatic's lovely explanation in our explanations thread.

Dracon, please see your private conversations.
https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/index.php?conversations/

Hi Dracon
Interesting post for exploration.

Just to check we are on the same page are you relating magical thinking just to the intrusive thinking that can become prevalent in conditions such as OCD?

For me magical thinking can have many other connotations relating to ritual activity linking in with cause and effect. Examples of this can be considered as blowing out candles on birthday cakes and making a wish, or wishing upon a shooting star or even crossing your fingers to beckon in good luck.

Your interpretation seems to be based solely in proving the effect of the first 'intrusive thinking' perspective and makes no attempt to integrate the second perspective which can provide comfort and reassurance for many who engage with it.

If that was your intention, to only focus on the one side of the coin, then it'll be good to have that cleared up.

My first observation though is that your interpretation seems to me to be set in explaining the manifestation of intrusive magical thinking in a person rather than answering your specific question which is based in exploring the principle behind magical thinking. Two different things from where I'm sitting. Happy to be corrected though.

Best wishes.

I have been asked to explain my method. I can't. Methods want a concrete outcome, its a way of trying to solve problems but not a path to comprehending problems. You can solve a problem temporarily but if you do not comprehend the problem it will not go away, it will repeat, over and over. I am after the insight coming from a conceptual framework. Methods are mixed and secundary to critical thinking, intuition and perception in my approach.

my_key said:

Hi Dracon
Interesting post for exploration.

Just to check we are on the same page are you relating magical thinking just to the intrusive thinking that can become prevalent in conditions such as OCD?

For me magical thinking can have many other connotations relating to ritual activity linking in with cause and effect. Examples of this can be considered as blowing out candles on birthday cakes and making a wish, or wishing upon a shooting star or even crossing your fingers to beckon in good luck.

Your interpretation seems to be based solely in proving the effect of the first 'intrusive thinking' perspective and makes no attempt to integrate the second perspective which can provide comfort and reassurance for many who engage with it.

If that was your intention, to only focus on the one side of the coin, then it'll be good to have that cleared up.

My first observation though is that your interpretation seems to me to be set in explaining the manifestation of intrusive magical thinking in a person rather than answering your specific question which is based in exploring the principle behind magical thinking. Two different things from where I'm sitting. Happy to be corrected though.

Best wishes.

Click to expand...

Interesting point. Whats the difference between magical thinking per se and "intrusive" magical thinking in your opinion?

Dracon said:

Interesting point. Whats the difference between magical thinking per se and "intrusive" magical thinking in your opinion?

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One is helpful the other is unhelpful.

I’m not clear what “Magical Thinking” means to you here but I’m thinking you are referencing the idea that “thoughts become things” and therefore one ought to be conscious of what they give their attention to because “where attention goes - energy flows” and the very act of giving thought to a possibility increases the likelihood of it’s manifestation.
Anyway, I see 39 as encouraging trying new methods to solve problems, so getting it here says to me that if Magical Thinking helps you turn yourself around and see things from a different perspective then the IC is all for it.

"I asked the IC about the principle behind magical thinking. The answer was 60.1.2.3 to 39... What do you see here?"

* You obviously had a view of the value of magical thinking when you consulted the oracle, because your interpretations of the changing lines are all according to the 'magical thinking is bad' evaluation. It's like you weren't asking the Yi for input about magical thinking so much as asking the Yi for a hexagram and lines which you could associate your negative valuation to.

* It could just as easily be read along these lines...

60.1 Initially, staying inside the parameters of magical thinking is without blame.

60.2 Not emerging from the confines of magical thinking brings misfortune.

60.3 Not limiting dependence on magical thinking means a negative outcome, but still no blame.

Overall, it limits you in a way that means impediments and difficulty. No disaster, in other words, but no benefit either.

* There's another take on all this as well - the oracle is talking directly to you about asking questions about which you've already made your mind up.

Reality is a Shared Fantasy.

I’m still not satisfied we have a clear definition of what “Magical Thinking” means to Dracon, but anyway, some further thoughts:

60.1 could be describing how when we are first starting out in life we have no experience or knowledge of the world outside. A baby makes up all sorts of erroneous ideas about how the world works so maybe 60.1 is the IC definition of “magical thinking” - the sort of ideas we have about how the world works that come from our own limited experience.

To assume the world revolves around us and is a reflection of our own thinking is natural for a beginner and gives one the necessary courage to step outside the familiar and into 60.2 with all its unknowns.

Then comes 60.3 and the sorting out of which dreams are doable and which must be abandoned.

This honest evaluation of fantasy vs. reality leading to 39. Oppression could be the I Ching advising that while one’s own “magical thinking” is invaluable for giving one the necessary courage to go out into the wider world but perhaps equally important is 39 saying you don’t have to then continue to go it alone.

Magical thinking is a fairly known quantity, and has a negative valuation - it's similar to superstition. What we don't know here is exactly what question Dracon asked. The question is really important.

rosada said:

I’m still not satisfied we have a clear definition of what “Magical Thinking” means to Dracon, but anyway, some further thoughts:

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I agree.The clear definition from the horses mouth is still conspicuous by its absence. However, the one-sidedness of his interpretation goes a long way to pointing in a certain direction.

For me all thoughts are magical. Who knows where a thought comes from or to where does it go?
However, I do like the idea of using the cast to explore the principle behind 'Magical Thinking'.

When I am looking for magic I invariably reach for Karcher. His renditions meander freely in and around the ethereal realms of magic. He names 60 as 'Articulating the Crossing' and assigns it a meaning of 'stilling it' and describes the situation conveyed by the hexagram in terms of the relations between things. There is a sense of limit and measure as well as expressing, distinguishing and joining things.

Taking this piece of the jigsaw, one could say the principle behind 'Magical Thinking' emanates from an act of stilling. This provides a foundation upon which a method for expression (articulating) and connection (crossing) can be made.

The best way of exploring the principle further and how best to apply it is found in the Image as

'This is a time when Noble One uses measures, number, and rules, deliberating power and virtue to move'.

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Here Karcher explains:

The ideal Realising Person reflects this by creating measure and models of action that engender the ability to realise the Way. Work through joyous words to bring the spirit to expression. Eliminate oppressive structures.

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Perhaps, this is saying the principle involves focusing on a measured place of stillness, and from that created place the joy of spirit can express itself in ways that both promote alignment with the Way and equally eliminate obstacles. To realise the way 'Magical Thinking' needs to be utilised within strict boundaries. By extension, here, it's important to recognise that usage of 'Magical Thinking' beyond the rules will not 'engender the ability to realise the Way'. Signposting you off in another direction.

Important details to appreciate about the principle of 'Magical Thinking'

60.1 - This means knowing when to interpenetrate and when it is blocked.
The arrival of 'Magical Thinking' only comes out of the darkness when the conditions for it are right. There are no faults in the darkness

60.2 - This is letting go of the right time's ending.
When the conditions are right you have to be right too. The conditions for the beginning of 'Magical Thinking' invite limitations to be placed on your habitual ways in order that an inner reorganisation can promote a new time of harmony.

60.3 - Lamenting. Whose fault is this?

At the threshold, this is the time to set the limits and measures required to create the new inner order. This is your last chance saloon to articulate the crossing of things in a harmonious way. The right balance of conditions needs to be just so and when 'Magical Thinking' is created then it is un-mistakenly created.
Here at the threshold, if the limits are not held in proper measure then too much infusion or flow of 'Magical Thinking' into the outer world happens. If this excess flow is allowed to prevail then there will be sadness and sorrow. This too is not a mistake as perhaps there is a purpose behind this reality and a need for it to be created.

... or perhaps it's nothing like this at all.

dobro p said:

Magical thinking is a fairly known quantity, and has a negative valuation - it's similar to superstition. What we don't know here is exactly what question Dracon asked. The question is really important.

Click to expand...

Dracon gives only this insight

I asked the IC about the principle behind magical thinking. The answer was 60.1.2.3 to 39.

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I don't think we need Dracon's view of magical thinking - it's a known quantity - there are entries in Wikipedia, Psychology Today, and Google comes up with lots of stuff. If Google recognizes it, if Wikipedia and Psychology Today have entries for it, and if I think I know what it means, then it's a thing. But the fuzziness of his question - 'I asked the IC about' - leaves something to be desired. I wish he/she would come back - I'd like to know whether they think the I Ching falls into that category...

I just asked. “What about the principal behind the I Ching?” I got 49.2 - 43. So it’s to help one make their own decisions?
(Apologies to Dracon. In my universe you don’t mind me hijacking your thread.) (If he doesn’t come back to complain I think this post should stand as proof Magical Thinking works.)

I think so, even if that is an example of magic thinking lol.

I think - therefore I am!

49 <> 43
'Abolishing the Old' through 'Eliminating'

Sounds like a very appropriate principle. The thing about it though is that for full impact the insights need to be followed through on (49.2).

darn.

Line 2 can be seen as the place that centres on inner rebalancing of thoughts, behaviours, reactions, and connection. So a good conduit for 'Magical Thinking' to work through.

Dracon said:

"In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it.[6] These beliefs can cause a person to experience an irrational fear of performing certain acts or having certain thoughts because of an assumed correlation between doing so and threatening calamities.[1]"

Is this the right place to talk about magical thinking? I asked the IC about the principle behind magical thinking. The answer was 60.1.2.3 to 39.

60 limitations
60.1 keeping within what is familiar
60.2 not acting when action is necessary
60.3 lamenting (the past)
39 hardship or limping

Looks like a pretty straight forward answer. First, the origin. 60, limitations. We encounter restrictions. These limits are there for us so we can thrive and progress. In a way, harsh reality has spoken and we need to change or at least find a way of dealing with reality.

What now? 60.1, we don't understand reality, so we try to solve this problem thru magical thinking. Instead of tackling reality and its horns directly (as adults or mature people tend to do), we fall into a fallacious way of thinking which will lead us to hex 29. We need to move!

60.2 (29.2) timing is important, action is required. Are we taking action in timely manner? Nope. We do not go out of the gate (opportune action) and fall into the ravine. Emotions and doubts are running the show, leading to inefficacious behaviour. Divination is here to help us, but if we don't move, we get into danger.

60.3 (8.3) the past becomes a burden and instead of solving our problems thru correct actions, we associate with the wrong kind of people, ideas or situations. We blame others (external locus, psychotic) instead of owning up to our mistakes (internal locus, neurotic). This brings sorrow and laments.

The related hex 39 shows where this faulty cognitive fallacy leads us or from where we are coming from. Obstacles and more obstacles, reality becomes a drag. The hidden line 39.4 indicates what will happen if we continue on this path. Overthinking cannot help us. We need to come back to earth, to face reality.

What do you see here?

*Quotes above are from Wikipedia, see "magical thinking", sources below
(1) Bennett, Bo. "Magical Thinking". Logically Fallacious.
(6) Colman, Andrew M. (2012). A Dictionary of Psychology (3rd ed.). Oxford University Press

Click to expand...

"Very superstitious,
Writing's on the wall,
Very superstitious,
Ladders bout' to fall,
Thirteen month old baby,
Broke the lookin' glass
Seven years of bad luck,
The good things in your past

When you believe in things
That you don't understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition aint the way

Hey

Very superstitious,
Wash your face and hands,
Rid me of the problem,
Do all that you can,
Keep me in a daydream,
Keep me goin' strong,
You don't wanna save me,
Sad is the soul

When you believe in things
That you don't understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition ain't the way,

Yeh, yeh

Very superstitious,
Nothin' more to say,
Very superstitious,
The devil's on his way,
Thirteen month old baby,
Broke the lookin' glass,
Seven years of bad luck,
Good things in your past

When you believe in things
That you don't understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition ain't the way,
No, no, no"

Stevie Wonder "Superstition"

Note; Ironically, this song was written by a blind artist, the archetypal "Seer".

Once you understand the difference between "Seer", "Cleric" and "Shaman", you will be able to see how the Shaman's erratic power (ritualistic magic) was replaced by the Seer's dramatic insight (i.e. necromancy) only to be warped again into a costly relationship with official God(s) through the clericus, the palace secretary, the priesthood (cleromancy) who demanded faith in their theistic structures derived from archaic symbolisms, faith that had to be expressed in tangible tributes (see Numbers, The Bible).

From active to ultra passive. In other words, the bureaucracy of the cleric replaced the nature-based rituals of the shaman and also the sordid necromancy that brings on the seer's mental disease. What do they have in common? Magical thinking, disguised as compulsive repetitive behavior (shaman, trance, ~30000 BC), then prophecy (seer, moral interpretation of the behaviors and thoughts of others, ~8000 BC), and finally theisms (priest, obedience to religious context based on imperial policies, ~3000 BC).

About Dracon´s cast: It's ludicrous to ask a magical thinking device about magical thinking. Analyzing it through modern psychology was interesting though.

The Hermit said:

About Dracon´s cast: It's ludicrous to ask a magical thinking device about magical thinking. Analyzing it through modern psychology was interesting though.

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Hi The Hermit

I liked the song lyrics, enjoyed reading your insights on Shaman, Seer and Cleric and then lost the connection when you finished with "It's ludicrous to ask a magical thinking device about magical thinking."
For me, there is nothing ludicrous about asking the I Ching about anything. By extension of your thinking, surely, asking the I Ching about anything is ludicrous. And that is clearly not the case to Dracon or many others who visit this site. The question has indeed been asked and there have been generated 4 responses to the question (absurd or otherwise).

I would offer an alternative perspective here that it is not the I Ching that is the 'magical thinking device'.

my_key said:

Hi The Hermit

I liked the song lyrics, enjoyed reading your insights on Shaman, Seer and Cleric and then lost the connection when you finished with "It's ludicrous to ask a magical thinking device about magical thinking."
For me, there is nothing ludicrous about asking the I Ching about anything. By extension of your thinking, surely, asking the I Ching about anything is ludicrous. And that is clearly not the case to Dracon or many others who visit this site. The question has indeed been asked and there have been generated 4 responses to the question (absurd or otherwise).

I would offer an alternative perspective here that it is not the I Ching that is the 'magical thinking device'.

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Please, go ahead, @my_key, I am very interested in your alternative perspective on this subject.

The thought I offer is that the 'magical thinking device' is associated with the channel provided by humankind.

Alternatively a thought offered by Terry Pratchett in A Hat Full of Sky

First Thoughts are the everyday thoughts. Everyone has those. Second Thoughts are the thoughts you think about the way you think. People who enjoy thinking have those. Third Thoughts are thoughts that watch the world and think all by themselves. They're rare, and often troublesome. Listening to them is part of witchcraft.

Click to expand...

The Hermit said:

Once you understand the difference between "Seer", "Cleric" and "Shaman", you will be able to see how the Shaman's erratic power (ritualistic magic) was replaced by the Seer's dramatic insight (i.e. necromancy) only to be warped again into a costly relationship with official God(s) through the clericus, the palace secretary, the priesthood (cleromancy) who demanded faith in their theistic structures derived from archaic symbolisms, faith that had to be expressed in tangible tributes (see Numbers, The Bible).

From active to ultra passive. In other words, the bureaucracy of the cleric replaced the nature-based rituals of the shaman and also the sordid necromancy that brings on the seer's mental disease. What do they have in common? Magical thinking, disguised as compulsive repetitive behavior (shaman, trance, ~30000 BC), then prophecy (seer, moral interpretation of the behaviors and thoughts of others, ~8000 BC), and finally theisms (priest, obedience to religious context based on imperial policies, ~3000 BC).

Click to expand...

Bit of a ramble here. ^^

The Hermit said:

About Dracon´s cast: It's ludicrous to ask a magical thinking device about magical thinking.

Click to expand...

That depends on how you define magical thinking, and if you think using the I Ching is an example of that.

How do *you* define magical thinking?

Do you think using the I Ching is an example of magical thinking (according to your definition of it)?

dobro p said:

Bit of a ramble here. ^^



That depends on how you define magical thinking, and if you think using the I Ching is an example of that.

How do *you* define magical thinking?

Do you think using the I Ching is an example of magical thinking (according to your definition of it)?

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What made you think of my historical, literary and anthropological evidence based comment as a ramble? If its inconsequential or non significant to you, why did you feel the need to assert yourself in such passive aggressive way? What importance does my "own" definition of magical thinking has to you, if there are so many scholars specialized on this subject who already have defined it accurately? Lets start there, shall we?

* https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Magical-Thinking

No, since this is the first time you and I have talked about this topic, let's start with you answering the two questions which I asked you. Or don't, and then we can end this exchange.

dobro p said:

No, since this is the first time you and I have talked about this topic, let's start with you answering the two questions which I asked you. Or don't, and then we can end this exchange.

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Fair enough @dobro p

"How do *you* define magical thinking?"

I would define MT as an important and necessary developmental stage of intellectual-emotional maturation in children. In adults I see it as a regression, a defense mechanism that fulfills an anxiolytic function, in which a person deals with the stress caused by cognitive dissonance, through immature or age-inappropriate actions (believing in witchcraft, for example).

Do you think using the I Ching is an example of magical thinking (according to your definition of it)?

Absolutely. But there is more. I also see it as a trauma bonding. People who use tarot, runes, IC, and other cleromancy devices, can and will become codependent and prone to being abused by unscrupulous or unethical people, who take their money, time, and energy. Psychic parasites, probably with Cluster B personality disorders like NPD or BPD, overt and covert, but not necessarily. They may just be abusive people who love attention and excel at exploiting others.

Your turn.

The Hermit said:

I would define MT as an important and necessary developmental stage of intellectual-emotional maturation in children. In adults I see it as a regression, a defense mechanism that fulfills an anxiolytic function, in which a person deals with the stress caused by cognitive dissonance, through immature or age-inappropriate actions (believing in witchcraft, for example).

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Yeah, that's a good take on it, I think. But I think it's regression only in some cases, not all. In other cases, people never grew up, never grew out of magical thinking - people who are 40 and still believe in their lucky number, for instance.

The Hermit said:

Paul: "Do you think using the I Ching is an example of magical thinking (according to your definition of it)?"

Absolutely. But there is more. I also see it as a trauma bonding. People who use tarot, runes, IC, and other cleromancy devices, can and will become codependent and prone to being abused by unscrupulous or unethical people, who take their money, time, and energy. Psychic parasites, probably with Cluster B personality disorders like NPD or BPD, overt and covert, but not necessarily. They may just be abusive people who love attention and excel at exploiting others.

Your turn.

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Two things. I think you've described a subset of I Ching users, but not all by any means. When people ask the Yi things like 'Should I take this job?', 'Should I dump my girlfriend?' (notice the 'should' word? - big flag!) or 'Who's gonna win the next presidential election in the US?' they're indulging in magical thinking. As for the whole trauma bonding thing you described, that's interesting and worth considering, but I'm unsure. I doubt that you can generalize though and say I Ching users are more susceptible to Dark Tetrad personalities than non-users. I think that a lot of people are really ordinary and averagely developed and balanced and use the Yi instead of self-help books or conversations with their buddies.

So, who uses the Yi and *doesn't* engage in magical thinking? Well, I can't speak for anyone other than myself really, but when I use it, it's not magical thinking. I address the depth of my own mind, the place where dreams come from. I ask something like: "What do you want to show me right now?" I'm not anthropomorphizing, because my view of the depth of the human mind is that it's alive and organized and autonomous in very important ways and sort of proto-human. Okay, with my question in mind, I do the toss and draw a hexagram and maybe a relating hexagram. Now the interesting bit starts. I take my time with it, looking at what it says at face value. But the reason I take my time with it is because I'm watching for what comes up in my own mind as I consider and relate to the text. What images, what feelings, what ideas come up as I mull the text. So, you might say at this point, well you could achieve the same effect by working with a poem or a verse from the Vedas or a post from an online I Ching site... and I'd say 'No, the I Ching's better, for two reasons. One, the I Ching is full of situations that are important to the meaning and skillful navigation of life, it's got real wisdom. Two, (and here's where you might be tempted to point and say 'magical thinking!), my experience is that the hexagram I draw actually matches/resonates with/appropriately addresses either the situation I'm in right now or the situation I'm asking about. This isn't faith or belief, it's my experience time and again that there's a resonance. It happened this week, for instance - the hexagram I drew fit the situation I was enquiring about hand/glove style. Okay, now here's an interesting variation. It doesn't always work so obviously and appropriately; sometimes it gives me something that doesn't fit my question. Just as if I was working with a person, I don't always get satisfaction. (This situation is worth exploring with an I Ching user, but not with somebody who thinks the whole thing is corn flakes, because the conversation works at completely cross purposes.) Anyway, if I was a skeptic, I'd be asking this right now: "Well, why use the oracle at all? Why not just ask yourself the question and then free associate and watch what comes up?" Answer: the oracle helps me get beyond my conscious attitude and associations, the hamster wheel I'm on. It works, in other words. It triggers new thinking.

I apologize for the long response. I'd have made it shorter if I could have.

@dobro p, you don´t need to apologize, it's a very interesting and candid answer, I appreciate it. I will try to elaborate as soon as I can on its content. I think it is also very appropriate for this section of the website.

I feel like adding that formulaic rules about divining probably isn't the best approach, for instance that the word "should" in a question is a red flag.

Seems like it might depend on a person's mindset. If someone's thought about her problem, come up with ideas, tried to find out what the real world has to say and so on - whatever you'd do if you didn't know an oracle - and you still don't know what to do - asking Yi "What should I do?" might be the best question. It's open-ended, direct, and uncomplicated, as Hilary sometimes talks about, for instance here and here (follow-up post here) recently in Reading Circle. Preparation will help you recognize things in the reading which is really important.

But there are also times - maybe fewer than we think if we're honest with ourselves, but they do exist - where the real world or our own minds can't help very much. "What should I do?" might still be the best question for the same reasons.

I think Yi knows when we've done what we can. If we haven't, it still might choose to help. Or it might not. A lot like a good parent, as Hilary points out the Dazhuan says...