Should we Consult the Book of Changes without Sharing its Values?

marybluesky · Sep 1, 2023

The I Ching is an ancient divination method with its own social, relational and hierarchical patterns.

That said I wonder if its good fortune and pitfall are based on what this philosophy considers to be right and wrong rather than what's best for the querent or makes her happy (yes, happiness is important to me).

For instance consider the line 2.3. It indicates following a king's work and not demanding much for yourself is the right thing to do, because the I Ching considers the king to be superior. Well, such a position might not be satisfactory in real life.

I can also think about the lines that talk about meeting a mature human being (1.2, 1.5, 17.3). Well, what to do if you receive these lines about forming a good relationship and you know that you are not attracted to mature men? I guess the I Ching considers it normal and good as in 28.2 so it doesn't matter if you want it or not, as a woman it invites you to date mature men because your role is to reproduce and be in service of others.

(I'm not ashamed of talking like that because younger people are more attractive in general. It's entirely acceptable for men to lust after young women and to despise women out of shape. So why shouldn't I be honest about what I am and am not attracted to?)

I'm afraid that by following this advice I lose the opportunity to enjoy my life as a young energetic person as it pushes me to settle with a mature man I am not attracted to in order to be in his service.

Hans_K · Sep 1, 2023

Hi Marybluesky
I think it is important to remember that the Yi speaks in images and it is up to the person consulting the Yi to translate those images to the situation and the question. Although the texts and "philosophy" are old, the images can still be translated to contemporary situations.In general, therefore, I would not take the oracle text too literally.
The oracle text must also be reinterpreted every time, it is not a one size fits all. Just because you have received a particular hexagram with moving line before does not mean that the meaning of that consultation applies now.
Translate the elements of the oracle text to your specific situation.
In the example you give of H2.3, the question is what does the image of the king mean in this case? E.g. a king provides leadership, it is a central figure, etc. So this could very well be yourself. Depending on the question, the meaning of this text could be that you shouldn't be too prominent when working with others, but it could also be that you shouldn't let certain thoughts take over too much, but keep to your central idea. So the meaning always depends on the question and the context.

In your example of the mature person (which translation is this from, as most translations I know use the term "great man"), the point is not to take this too literally. That mature man or great person could also very well refer to yourself. That you yourself are the mature woman or great person.
Again, what is the context and how do you translate the images of the Yi's answer to the situation. Depending on the question, the great person can also be e.g. your own conscience. But if it is a medical question e.g. a doctor, etc.

marybluesky said:
That said I wonder if its good fortune and pitfall are based on what this philosophy considers to be right and wrong rather than what's best for the querent or makes her happy (yes, happiness is important to me).

There is no right or wrong in the philosophy of the Yi (we already have Christianity for that

), it's all about balance. The whole (ancient) Chinese philosophy is based on finding and maintaining the balance between Yin and Yang.

If you want to date younger men, that's fine, the Yi has no judgement on that. However, it may be that when you have a choice between man A and man B that you are advised to ignore man A and choose man B. In that case, it is not about age, but rather because man B is a better match.

These are my thoughts on it, hopefully it will be of use to you. As always, take what resonates and leave the rest.

hilary · Sep 1, 2023

Those are very, very good points.

As a minor extra: I'd add, do not take any translation too literally. As Hans implied in passing, those lines (1.2.5 etc) do not say 'meet a mature human being'. They say 見大人 - 'see' not 'meet', which is sometimes important, and 'great' not just 'mature': the word can mean adult, and also powerful/ resourceful or morally better, and even just 'big'. 'Mature' is only a small part of the meaning, and maturity is not something everyone gains with age anyway.

my_key · Sep 1, 2023

Hi Mary
I agree that the I Ching carries many social, relational and hierarchical patterns that do not bear the same ethical values in the current day and age. This can be particular irksome for female querents as many of the translations carry the male led hierarchical structure, which does need to be progressed beyond. This is where your own interpretation of the image can take you beyond the historical inferences.

2.3 carries a sense of being humble in all you do and following the 'King' that you believe to be the true sovereign. This allows for an easy dethronement of any King that does not fit the bill for you. 2.3 changes to 15 Authenticity and I believe the line is a call to be true to yourself and start to shine in your own right, without getting too attached to any outcomes or being brash in manner.

28.2 certainly is explicit in it's wording 'an older husband acquires a younger consort' however the images that come to me from this are wisdom in the older person and a relationship based in mentoring or coaching to allow new shoots to grow and with them a sense that all things are beneficial. Again in this line the wisdom could come from within yourself as you discover more beneficial ways to walk in the world. What they are, only you will be able to discover.

So I think it is appropriate to consult the book even if you do not share the values of the antiquated social, relational and hierarchical patterns that run through the book. If these are not your values then it is possible to look more diligently into the lines to bring forward advice or wisdom that resonates with you more clearly. If you can, move away from the words and use your own interpretations of the images that are expressed. Trying to have your conversation with Yi through what is to all intents and purposes a foreign language will not serve you.

The I Ching helps you towards personal growth and guides you in directions of good fortune, while avoiding actions that will be inauspicious or detrimental. From where I sit it is important, therefore, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Take Care

marybluesky · Sep 1, 2023

I'm not good at reading the casts using the images of triagrams. I have tried it but I relate to words far better. If by image you mean the overall picture illustrated by words versus a literal take of sentences then it's another story. Of course in some situations the exact words have worked surprisingly well for me and others. It doesn't mean that I am utterly literal in interpreting the casts and I think that's already clear in my posts on the forum.

In the case of 2.3 I gave its example to explain my point. Otherwise, I've received this line several times and my take has been nearer to Hilary's words; something in lines with "there is something pleasant [despite the complications if they exist] so keep up, don't be hard on yourself, don't try to control the situation, just be, and it will be done".

As for the "mature person" lines I find them another example of a rather explicit image. Whether we translate it as mature or great or big, it is a clear characteristic. Ironically I've been receiving them over and over since a while, and I think the picture is almost clear in 17.3: all the translation talk about the mature man versus the child. Older ones even refer to "senior fellow" [Shaughnessy] and "man of age and experience" [Legge].

I see your point that being mature or great doesn't necessarily refer to actual age.

But after reading these lines so many times in response to different questions in the same context I can't help but to notice the exact words

Hans_K said:
If you want to date younger men, that's fine, the Yi has no judgement on that.

I see. Well I don't know what I should do however I know that I shouldn't be after mature man. The day I'll be mature myself I'll lose the attention of the majority of young ones anyway so it's better not to settle for that sooner.

Hans_K · Sep 1, 2023

marybluesky said:
I'm not good at reading the casts using the images of triagrams. I have tried it but I relate to words far better. If by image you mean the overall picture illustrated by words versus a literal take of sentences then it's another story.

What I mean is that the oracle text evokes an image. E.g. H1.2 "The dragon appears in the field. It is beneficial to see a great person."
In the first line, the dragon is still submerged, here is appears in the field.
The question now is: What does a dragon stand for and what does it mean that it appears in the field. I think those are the questions you should be asking yourself when you receive this answer. Is a dragon yang or yin? Action or passive?
Does this mean that you should act immediately, or is it that when you first appear somewhere you first take in the surroundings so that you know how to move in this new environment?
In essence: How do you link the dragon and its appearance to the question and the situation.
I think these are the kinds of questions you should ask yourself when reading an oracle text. But that's just my opinion

.

marybluesky said:
As for the "mature person" lines I find them another example of a rather explicit image. Whether we translate it as mature or great or big, it is a clear characteristic. Ironically I've been receiving them over and over since a while, and I think the picture is almost clear in 17.3: all the translation talk about the mature man versus the child. Older ones even refer to "senior fellow" [Shaughnessy] and "man of age and experience" [Legge].

So?
What it always comes down to is: What does the term mean in the context of the question you have asked?
Depending on the question and situation, the great man can also be a close friend (male or female) to whom you tell your story or from whom you seek advice.

The strong man in the lines of H17 is really something quite different from the great man you were talking about earlier.
In the lines of H17 (2and 3), a comparison is made between a strong man and a small child. This is about the person as an adult and the child inside him/her. In a situation, do you behave and act as an adult or as a child?
The great man in the remaining texts is about someone (including yourself) who has more knowledge and/or experience. So someone who can advise and support you.

marybluesky said:
The day I'll be mature myself I'll lose the attention of the majority of young ones anyway so it's better not to settle for that sooner.

Live the life you want to live and enjoy it

Trojina · Sep 1, 2023

marybluesky said:
The day I'll be mature myself I'll lose the attention of the majority of young ones anyway so it's better not to settle for that sooner.

For native English speakers 'mature' doesn't necessarily mean old it means adult, grown up, wise. Hence you are already mature at 33? If one wants to say someone is old we don't say 'they are mature'. A 14 year old can be called 'mature' and if you call a 14 year old mature it means they are grown up, sensible, wise, they have their head screwed on. Mature means developed and being called 'immature' is generally an insult.

Getting hung up on the word 'mature' is a mistake surely given it's a translation so it's just the nearest word to what they mean

I see your point that being mature or great doesn't necessarily refer to actual age.

I see you already said that but still are talking about age.

marybluesky · Sep 1, 2023

Thanks Trojina.

I had seen texts where the term "mature" meant adult as opposed to young adult. Middle aged I should say.

To be honest I don't consider myself mature in the sense you say and can't understand mature people. I am a rootless, confused being who can never come in term with the world around her. I feel like a stranger and am very immature emotionally. That said, mature people don't attract me and I can't have a real relationship with them anyway because we have practically nothing in common.

It's not a rant, it's how I've been perceiving my life for years and I don't know any other way of being.

rosada · Sep 1, 2023

2.3
Hidden lines.
One is able to remain persevering.
If by chance you are in service to a king,
Seek not works but bring to completion.

Is 2.3 really saying following a king’s work and not demanding much for yourself is the right thing to do, because the IC considers the king to be superior?

I give this line a different interpretation.
Rather than seeing this line as being about taking orders and self sacrifice, I read it as advice on how to maintain one’s peaceful Receptivity by taking care of commitments without getting sucked into more drama.

Consider “Hidden lines. One is able to remain persevering.” as saying one is in a position where it is best to stay hidden, to fly under the radar and in that way be able to remain persevering on one’s own path.
However, in order to do this we frequently find we can’t continue to just sit quietly as in 2.2 because as you sit quietly all the unfinished stuff you promised to do comes to mind. So 2.3 is the place where awareness of previous commitments can disrupt one’s peace and then the advice is to complete those commitments while being careful to not take on any new ones. ( and thus be able to move on to 2.4 and be like a tied up sack - totally free of obligations)

dobro p · Sep 6, 2023

marybluesky said:
The I Ching is an ancient divination method with its own social, relational and hierarchical patterns.

Mmm, it was assembled by people who had their own takes on things, but the images they used in the I Ching can serve as workable symbols for us, people who live in a different time, in a different culture, with different values and takes on things.

marybluesky said:
That said I wonder if its good fortune and pitfall are based on what this philosophy considers to be right and wrong rather than what's best for the querent or makes her happy (yes, happiness is important to me).

Good question. Overall, I'd say yes. Whereas the images in the I Ching are symbols, the 'good fortune/pitfall' valuations are literal, I think. Learn how to read the images as symbols and take the 'good fortune/pitfall' valuations at face value, and you're good to go, basically.

marybluesky said:
For instance consider the line 2.3. It indicates following a king's work and not demanding much for yourself is the right thing to do, because the I Ching considers the king to be superior. Well, such a position might not be satisfactory in real life.

The 'king' in 2.3 is a symbol of a powerfully dominant order-making factor in your life. (It's 99.999% certainly not King Charles being referred to here.) So, what in your life are you working under/serving/taking as authority? It might be a person in your life who you relate to as a powerful authority, or it could just as easily be a belief or value in your own psychology. See, it's not easy to 'translate' the I Ching symbols into what they're pointing to in your life. But equally, that's the incredible value of the I Ching - it gets you looking at yourself and your life. It's reflective. When you reflect, you see things. The I Ching just points your attention in a pertinent direction.

marybluesky said:
I can also think about the lines that talk about meeting a mature human being (1.2, 1.5, 17.3). Well, what to do if you receive these lines about forming a good relationship and you know that you are not attracted to mature men? I guess the I Ching considers it normal and good as in 28.2 so it doesn't matter if you want it or not, as a woman it invites you to date mature men because your role is to reproduce and be in service of others.

Don't take it literally. It's symbolic, and when you read the I Ching, your task is to see what in your life, especially psychologically, is being pointed to by the symbols.

marybluesky said:
(I'm not ashamed of talking like that because younger people are more attractive in general. It's entirely acceptable for men to lust after young women and to despise women out of shape. So why shouldn't I be honest about what I am and am not attracted to?)

Be honest with yourself. People who kid themselves are lost.

marybluesky said:
I'm afraid that by following this advice I lose the opportunity to enjoy my life as a young energetic person as it pushes me to settle with a mature man I am not attracted to in order to be in his service.

The I Ching provides symbols. Don't take it literally.

moss elk · Sep 7, 2023

marybluesky said:
Well, what to do if you receive these lines about forming a good relationship and you know that you are not attracted to mature men? I guess the I Ching considers it normal and good as in 28.2 so it doesn't matter if you want it or not, as a woman it invites you to date mature men because your role is to reproduce and be in service of others.

What to do is to try to understand that the age differences in 28 do not mean 'elderly' or 'kid'
And that the key takeaway is about one party being older, one younger.
This difference could be 1 year, or 5 year, or 10. it doesn't have to mean 20+ (I have witnessed this)

In elk notes, the lines say 'younger female, older male' & 'younger male, older female'

marybluesky · Sep 7, 2023

Now that we have different views I'm going to discuss some points:

I understand very well that the images in the I Ching can refer to psychological aspects. However when I share a reading here - and more often than not, when I consult the I Ching at first place- that's because I couldn't find a solution in my mind. I'm an introspective person and don't tend to ask others what to do in my life, I'd rather try to find my way. That said, if for instance I consider the "great person" in 1.2 to be an element in my psyche, that won't be helpful for me. If my mind was able to point the problem I didn't search for solutions elsewhere. It's an example and I know that the great person can be a doctor or specialist or experienced friend or ... but I need some clarity.

Now the good & bad fortune:

dobro p said:

Good question. Overall, I'd say yes. Whereas the images in the I Ching are symbols, the 'good fortune/pitfall' valuations are literal, I think. Learn how to read the images as symbols and take the 'good fortune/pitfall' valuations at face value, and you're good to go, basically.

Click to expand...

That's what I've done up to this day.
But my question was: bad and good according to what? Does the good fortune make me happy and the bad fortune miserable? Or it is about good and bad according to some value system, regardless of its consequences in real life? The latter isn't my philosophy of life; in other words, I'm not going to sacrifice what seems beneficial and happy for the sake of spirituality or some uncertain bliss in the future or being in line with Tao. I am after concrete results and if the good fortune doesn't apply to that then maybe I shouldn't ask the oracle at all.

Now I'm considering a new approach: if I want something and the I Ching advises me not to go for it, I wait for some time. If the situation improves or another solution shows up, then good. Otherwise at some point I ignore the advice and go for what I want. There have been cases where I received 64.4- fighting the demon country for three years, then rewards in great city- repeatedly for about 6 years, trying different ways to conquer the demon country, without any result. Enough is enough. I had better to act impulsively and enjoy the moment.

@moss elk then what has been your experience on the mature/great/strong man in 1.2, 1.5 and 17.3?

my_key · Sep 7, 2023

Hi Mary
You express yourself clearly in your post and that is always a good place to start. Here are a few observations, meant as nothing more than observations, based in my life experiences.

marybluesky said:
That said, if for instance I consider the "great person" in 1.2 to be an element in my psyche, that won't be helpful for me.

It's important not to engage with things that you do not find helpful.

marybluesky said:
If my mind was able to point the problem I didn't search for solutions elsewhere. It's an example and I know that the great person can be a doctor or specialist or experienced friend or ... but I need some clarity.

The mind makes a wonderful servant and a terrible master. Clarity comes when your mind is not the master.

marybluesky said:
But my question was: bad and good according to what? Does the good fortune make me happy and the bad fortune miserable? Or it is about good and bad according to some value system, regardless of its consequences in real life?

Yi has no clear perspective on good or bad - positive charge or negative charge. It comments on the auspiciousness of a line or otherwise, but sits back and makes no judgement on the direction taken by the querent. Good or bad, light or dark is perhaps a manifestation of human based judgement. As the old saying goes ' One man's meat is another man's poison'.

marybluesky said:
The latter isn't my philosophy of life; in other words, I'm not going to sacrifice what seems beneficial and happy for the sake of spirituality or some uncertain bliss in the future or being in line with Tao.

We are each the sole creator of our world. As such we need to understand the consequences of and take responsibility for the choices we make. We always make the best choices we can in any given situation. On another day our 'best choice' may well have turned out to be something different.

marybluesky said:
Now I'm considering a new approach: if I want something and the I Ching advises me not to go for it, I wait for some time. If the situation improves or another solution shows up, then good. Otherwise at some point I ignore the advice and go for what I want. There have been cases where I received 64.4- fighting the demon country for three years, then rewards in great city- repeatedly for about 6 years, trying different ways to conquer the demon country, without any result. Enough is enough. I had better to act impulsively and enjoy the moment.

I have found on many occasions that counting to 10 brings rewards from allowing time that gathering matters together enough to enable an adult response rather than reacting to a situation impulsively. It can be important when receiving 64.4 to consider that it alternates to hex 4 which carries a strong flavour of immaturity.

moss elk said:
What to do is to try to understand that the age differences in 28 do not mean 'elderly' or 'kid'
And that the key takeaway is about one party being older, one younger.
This difference could be 1 year, or 5 year, or 10. it doesn't have to mean 20+ (I have witnessed this)

In elk notes, the lines say 'younger female, older male' & 'younger male, older female'

Great observation. When are you going to publish the volume 1 of Elk Notes?

hilary · Sep 7, 2023

marybluesky said:
But my question was: bad and good according to what? Does the good fortune make me happy and the bad fortune miserable? Or it is about good and bad according to some value system, regardless of its consequences in real life? The latter isn't my philosophy of life; in other words, I'm not going to sacrifice what seems beneficial and happy for the sake of spirituality or some uncertain bliss in the future or being in line with Tao. I am after concrete results and if the good fortune doesn't apply to that then maybe I shouldn't ask the oracle at all.

If you already know what you want to do and what feels right to you, then I wouldn't suggest asking the oracle. As for the omens - I think they are quite simple and concrete, and don't need overthinking. What a human would call 'bad luck' (with hindsight), the oracle might call 'misfortune' (in advance). The tricky part is short term vs long term. Failing to get the job might be good fortune if there is a better offer round the corner; just catching the bus might be misfortune if this is the one that's going to break down.

marybluesky · Sep 7, 2023

my_key said:
I have found on many occasions that counting to 10 brings rewards from gathering matters together enough to enable an adult response rather than reacting to a situation impulsively. It can be important when receiving 64.4 to consider that it alternates to hex 4 which carries a strong flavour of immaturity.

But if we refrain from acting because of being immature or anything then we'll learn nothing

Now let's take a closer look at 64.4 with an example (it hasn't been mine):
Imagine someone has received 64.4 on how she can improve her financial situation. She's told that it won't happen overnight (64: not yet across; hence the three years fight), she's invited to meet the demons and fight them (they can be internal and external) then there will be rewards. She is patient and tries to win over evils for several years- still without any result.

What part of her interpretation has been wrong?

marybluesky · Sep 7, 2023

hilary said:
If you already know what you want to do and what feels right to you, then I wouldn't suggest asking the oracle.

That's right. Well I need to be more resolute and less risk-averse in the future so that I overcome all doubts and go head on for what I want.

my_key · Sep 7, 2023

marybluesky said:
But if we refrain from acting because of being immature or anything then we'll learn nothing

What I have written is not about refraining from acting, more about giving time for consideration and acting from a mature place of response rather than reacting to a situation i.e. think in terms of shooting from the hip, or the gun going off half cocked. Reactions can stem from immature thoughts and behaviours and are habitual ways we defend or protect ourselves in order to survive.

marybluesky said:
Now let's take a closer look at 64.4 with an example (it hasn't been mine):
Imagine someone has received 64.4 on how she can improve her financial situation. She's told that it won't happen overnight (64: not yet across; hence the three years fight), she's invited to meet the demons and fight them (they can be internal and external) then there will be rewards. She is patient and tries to win over evils for several years- still without any result.

What part of her interpretation has been wrong?

No part of it is wrong; everything is right. It is her interpretation. If that is how she sees matters then that is how she sees it. It speaks from her truth. Someone else may hold fast to a different truth and so give a different interpretation. Both can be considered as right.

Liselle · Sep 7, 2023

marybluesky said:
I am after concrete results

I completely understand this, but - playing devil's advocate to myself as much as you - results can't be forced. Sometimes there isn't an acceptable answer to questions like "How can I do this?" if in fact you can't. (This is especially a problem if what you want seems perfectly reasonable.)

But there might be other answers - for instance, if I can't have x/y/z, what can I have, how can I get closer, at least.

CircleRiver · Sep 7, 2023

This has been a great discussion, I'm adding my 2c on the original question (and hoping this doesn't confuse the conversation).

I want to mention a line: H18.6

'Not serving a king or marquis; looking higher for service.' (Adler)

The Yi is very happy to tell you to not serve a king (or even lesser leaders), if that is not appropriate at the time! This is what makes the Yi different from simplistic forms of Confucianism that see service to superiors as a general edict for all situations. I'm not an expert on history, but its worth mentioning that the 'Mandate of Heaven' bestowed upon emperors and empresses in Chinese history was notoriously fragile. One big flood, and the people would start to think it had been taken away and get ready to revolt.

If the Yijing assumes anything, it is not a universal morality, but it assumes that, when certain hexagrams and lines are pulled, they are relevant for your situation. If king (王) appears, then that relates to some part of the situation, but it is almost never referring to a literal king or monarch in most situations! Arguably this is a more freeing approach to kingship, rather than one that dismisses the idea of following a superior altogether - even if a hierarchy (or all hierarchies) is unjust, sometimes someone in a position of power may have a good idea. A stopped clock is right twice a day, etc.

But what about situations without any hierarchy at all? My current (beginner) understanding of this is to think about yin and yang, remembering them as verbs rather than "things". If something is initiating something, it is acting as yang, and if something is receiving something, it is acting as yin. This applies even in very egalitarian situations: I recently helped put up an art exhibition. The friend who invited me into the group gave me some art and told me to lay it out - the friend was yang (giving me an order) and I was yin (receiving the order). I received the files, and put them into my software, I was yang, the computer was yin. I and the friend mounted the art together, so we were both yang, and the pieces of paper were yin. When putting up the exhibition, my friend designed the main layout (yang) and others put the pieces up (yin), but occasionally we flipped yang and yin as we disagreed about where to put certain pieces. Throughout this whole situation, different people at different times were kings, dukes, or commoners.

These dynamics are very situational and can vary even minute-by-minute (see: me and my friend arguing about where to put certain pieces of art), but the Yi captures those dynamics of the situation in the particular context of a question.

I will say also that if consulting the Yijing feels like you're struggling to overcome the language used, perhaps you could consider other forms of divination? If its not right for you, its not right, and that's okay!

marybluesky · Sep 7, 2023

CircleRiver said:
I will say also that if consulting the Yijing feels like you're struggling to overcome the language used, perhaps you could consider other forms of divination? If its not right for you, its not right, and that's okay!

I haven't seen you here before. You explained interesting points.

In general I have no problem with the language. As mentioned earlier I'm a text person and reading and interpreting the lines feel natural to me. For instance, many (most?) people prefer image-based oracles, from coffee toss reading to tarot. I'm not good at that without having some descriptive text (again, text) that makes me able to relate the answer to my situation.

What I was discussing were the symbols, their degree of abstraction and concretion, and the good and bad fortune.

P.S: The yin/yang thing and the Taoist equilibrium never resonated with me.

dobro p · Sep 7, 2023

marybluesky said:
* Now the good & bad fortune:

That's what I've done up to this day.
But my question was: bad and good according to what?

Good and bad according to what you or the situation needs.

I've been in situations that were painful, terrifying, dangerous, or all three and yet in the long run it turned out to be beneficial. That's good fortune. Vice versa also true. (And of course, I've been been in situations that seemed like good fortune and actually were.) So, according to the way I view it, there's what you think is good for you and there's what's really good for you (sometimes they're conjunct, but sometimes not) and the I Ching gives you an objective readout.

I think Hilary has a story about a Chinese farmer who (wisely) refused to be taken in by appearances, and the there are Sufi stories about Khidr which are similar.

moss elk · Sep 7, 2023

my_key said:
Great observation. When are you going to publish the volume 1 of Elk Notes?

Hi my_key,

I'm too busy at this time with full time work and a 50 piece art project that no one asked me to create. Elk Notes may have to be collected posthumously by some gentle scribe who has the good sense to scrape off the mud and extract the gold from some of my posts before publishing.

moss elk · Sep 8, 2023

Hans_K said:
There is no right or wrong in the philosophy of the Yi (we already have Christianity for that ), it's all about balance. The whole (ancient) Chinese philosophy is based on finding and maintaining the balance between Yin and Yang.

Hi Hans, well met.

I very much disagree with that because most of that 'balance verging on nihilism stuff' came waaay after the Zhou Yi and was from schools of philosophy & religion. It's like when a Taoist says, "Yi is Taoist!" No, that's like saying the Winter Solstice is Christian; It was around before they & their ideas were attached to it.
I suppose I am suggesting for you to recognize the sources that gave you that idea, because it was not king Wen or his Son that expounded such.

The philosophy of Yi, as I have experienced it, is one that nurtures life and good character by helping one navigate & avoid pitfalls (external and internal) and bad choices and finding the high road/optimal (higher purpose even) in any situation.

To dismiss the distinctions Yi makes between high (synonymous with right/good) and low purposes/behaviors (synonymous with wrong/bad) mature/immature is to miss very important teachings.

Hans_K · Sep 8, 2023

moss elk said:
Hi Hans, well met.

I very much disagree with that because most of that 'balance verging on nihilism stuff' came way after Yi and was from schools of philosophy & religion. It's like when a Taoist says, "Yi is Taoist!" No, that's like saying Christians invented the Winter Solstice. It was around before they & their ideas were attached to it.
I suppose I am suggesting you to recognize the sources that gave you that idea.

The philosophy of Yi, as I have experienced it, is one that nurtures life and good character by helping one navigate & avoid pitfalls and bad choices and finding the high road/optimal (higher purpose even) in any situation.

To dismiss the distinctions Yi makes between high (synonymous with right/good) and low purposes/behaviors (synonymous with wrong/bad) mature/immature is to miss very important teachings.

Let's agree to disagree. This kind of discussion is pointless in my view.

moss elk · Sep 8, 2023

Hans_K said:
Let's agree to disagree.

Alrighty then.

Hans_K said:
This kind of discussion is pointless in my view.

I believe that is true.

moss elk · Sep 8, 2023

marybluesky said:
@moss elk then what has been your experience on the mature/great/strong man in 1.2, 1.5 and 17.3?

The dynamic between 1.2 and 13.2 is informative.
One is too connected to the clan, home, town, whatever, and that is regretable.
The other is out in the field and is benefited by meeting a great man.

Said together, 1.2+13.2 can make a single point, wow:
'It is regrettable to have fellowship only with the Fam and,
It is advantageous to be in the field and meet a great man.'
(Could this be true for anyone that you know?)

I only had 1.5 once, and my question was an unusual one...but answer was accurate.
After a miles long brisk hike that could have doubled in distance, where the sweet air & I were breathing each other,
I bumped into the president of the building where I live, we had a brief chat.
Went inside, feeling ... incredible. I noticed the feeling good part intensely and asked Yi,
"Describe this last hour?"
Answer 1.5 'flying dragon in the sky, harvest/good to see the great man'
I was the flying dragon, and I met the great man.
(Gee, it seems to have a similar message as 1.2+13.2 .... Good to go out of the familiar and meet a great man)

PSA version of 17.3 :

my_key · Sep 8, 2023

moss elk said:
Hi my_key,

I'm too busy at this time with full time work and a 50 piece art project that no one asked me to create. Elk Notes may have to be collected posthumously by some gentle scribe who has the good sense to scrape off the mud and extract the gold from some of my posts before publishing.

That sounds like quite a task you have given yourself there. Is the art project related to I Ching in any way or are your creative juices being directed in other directions?
As the Buddhists say "No Mud, no lotus" so there will be worse things that the gentle scribe could undertake as his life's work.
Good to see you back contributing.

moss elk · Sep 8, 2023

my_key said:
That sounds like quite a task you have given yourself there. Is the art project related to I Ching in any way or are your creative juices being directed in other directions?

Paintings not related to I Ching studies, though may inevitably be influenced.

It feels like the pieces want to be born,
and I am just assisting, if that makes any sense. I do not have an image in mind or sketches before starting, each one kind of develops in it's own way. Each very different from the other.

dobro p · Sep 8, 2023

CircleRiver said:
But what about situations without any hierarchy at all? My current (beginner) understanding of this is to think about yin and yang, remembering them as verbs rather than "things". If something is initiating something, it is acting as yang, and if something is receiving something, it is acting as yin.

How about 'yinning' and 'yanging' as terms to represent what you're talking about?

I'm currently seeing will as having two forms - doing and not-doing. Doing would be yanging, and not-doing would be yinning.

"I couldn't solve it, couldn't do anything that was helpful, so I hunkered down and yinned for a while."

dobro p · Sep 8, 2023

marybluesky said:
I understand very well that the images in the I Ching can refer to psychological aspects. However when I share a reading here - and more often than not, when I consult the I Ching at first place- that's because I couldn't find a solution in my mind. I'm an introspective person and don't tend to ask others what to do in my life, I'd rather try to find my way. That said, if for instance I consider the "great person" in 1.2 to be an element in my psyche, that won't be helpful for me.

Why not?

What's your take on 'great person' applied to your own psyche?

marybluesky said:
Now I'm considering a new approach: if I want something and the I Ching advises me not to go for it, I wait for some time. If the situation improves or another solution shows up, then good. Otherwise at some point I ignore the advice and go for what I want. There have been cases where I received 64.4- fighting the demon country for three years, then rewards in great city- repeatedly for about 6 years, trying different ways to conquer the demon country, without any result. Enough is enough. I had better to act impulsively and enjoy the moment.

When I read this, the thought that crossed my mind was 'MBS fought the demons and then reached 'enough is enough' and went with what she wanted to do anyway. Problem solved.' Elsewhere in this thread, Hilary said something along the lines of 'If you know your own mind, maybe don't consult the oracle.'

In my experience, the Yi doesn't work well if you're simply risk-averse, or if you want a second opinion on something you've already decided. It isn't into validation or making up your mind for you. It seems to work best when I've tried my best to work something out and I'm well and truly stuck and especially if I'm upset or hurting. It seems to respond most powerfully and usefully to genuine ignorance and suffering. I know there are people who consult it daily, but for me it's for crisis.

I don't know if any of this resonates or not. Hopefully it does. (The internet's a goofy place for a good conversation.) Whatcha think?

Should we Consult the Book of Changes without Sharing its Values?

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