Should we Consult the Book of Changes without Sharing its Values?

[Liselle]

At the risk of contrarianism, I've actually had it validate things any number of times. Have problem - try to come up with plan - ask Yi about plan - Yi smiles at plan. (Or doesn't, of course.)

But Yi talks differently with everyone, as we might expect, so mileage varies and that's okay.

 

[dobro p]

You're not being contrarian, you're being different than me. I went through a longish phase years ago in which I was way too dependent on the Yi for decisions I was perfectly capable of making on my own. I could consult the oracle about whether I should consult the oracle, sort of thing lol. So I had to learn to walk away from that and step into being my own person with my own choices and my own mistakes. Nowadays, when I know I need help, the Yi's there. Otherwise, I tweak along on my own.

 

[marybluesky]

At the risk of contrarianism, I've actually had it validate things any number of times.

I ask the I Ching for validation from time to time.

I have also had readings as literal as "21.2: biting into dried meat, so that your nose disappears, no mistake" about the situation of two kittens whom I found out later were feed meat by a neighbor.

What's your take on 'great person' applied to your own psyche?

Nothing.
I consider my mind to be a tool. When it doesn't work I look for other solutions.

When I read this, the thought that crossed my mind was 'MBS fought the demons and then reached 'enough is enough' and went with what she wanted to do anyway. Problem solved.

Well the line mentions to "rewards in the great city". If the querent reaches the point of enough is enough without gaining anything precious, why the line talks about rewards?

This way there would be no point in asking oracle at all. Because the auspiciousness can mean "you'll go through it and find out that it's futile then you'd learn the lesson". People learn lessons the hard way everyday. We ask the oracle to know what to do and not to do, when to go and when to stop.

Said together, 1.2+13.2 can make a single point, wow:
'It is regrettable to have fellowship only with the Fam and,
It is advantageous to be in the field and meet a great man.'
(Could this be true for anyone that you know?)

No, at least it doesn't remind me of anyone.

 

[moss elk]

I went through a longish phase years ago..

Right, save it for the big stuff.

And yi cannot calm our hearts & minds,
Only we can do that ourselves.

 

[moss elk]

No, at least it doesn't remind me of anyone.

Some time ago when we last interacted,
You mentioned living with family. And hanging out socially with an 'odd' relative.

Are you still doing that?
Or have you expanded your horizons again?

I ask because the readings seem to say to do that.

 

[Liselle]

If the querent reaches the point of enough is enough without gaining anything precious, why the line talks about rewards?

By any chance did you ask Yi about it? "Yi, you've given me 64.4 a lot, but I've tried and it hasn't worked and I've had enough. What if I give up now?" (Or something along those lines.)

 

[marybluesky]

@Liselle it was an example for an unsatisfactory reading which seems to ignore the querent situation.

 

[Viru10]

I went through a longish phase years ago in which I was way too dependent on the Yi for decisions I was perfectly capable of making on my own

As someone who's addicted to certainty (which is impossible to have) Yi can definitely like a drug. I often constantly re-ask the same questions and I've realized it's made me quite passive over the last few years.

Something about it can feel tempting, like a feeling of having omniscience. Ironically it's fed into my anxiety by making me feel like I need to know what will happen next, and after that and so on. There's definitely something to be said about cultivating your own inner compass and avoiding becoming hyper-dependent on divination to the point where you ignore your own gut.

In fact it may be validating your instincts but you won't be able to tell if you're dependent on external validation.

This is definitely mirroring my own experience with the Yi currently, thanks for posting.

 

[dobro p]

Ironically it's fed into my anxiety by making me feel like I need to know what will happen next, and after that and so on.

Ironically for sure. Counterintuitive possibly. It's that certainty thing. Why the need to know, I wonder? (It's such a relief to let outcomes take care of themselves.)

 

[Viru10]

Ironically for sure. Counterintuitive possibly. It's that certainty thing. Why the need to know, I wonder? (It's such a relief to let outcomes take care of themselves.)

Oh that's because of OCD. I intellectually know that it's great for things to unfold of their own volition but when it involves a mental illness it genuinely feels like a drug to chase certainty.

Hence why some people wash their hands for hours.

Mary's problem may not be that extreme, but it sounds like it could stem from a need for certainty, particularly from an external source.

 

[dobro p]

Oh that's because of OCD.

So, you're dealing with OCD and you think Mary's similar?

That's pretty cool if you figure out that what you see in others is actually what's in you. But you knew that already.

 

[marybluesky]

I don't know if I have OCD lol, but I relate to this part:

Something about it can feel tempting, like a feeling of having omniscience.

The sense of omniscience, because I ask the I Ching about what I seem to have no other means to learn about. And I am a curious person. [For instance l finally learned Devanagari, read about the Indian culture and am discovering traditional Hindi dances. All began with a heated fascination for the language's sounds, words and songs l didn't understand well in the beginning]. I want to know it all and that's not possible on the earth.

Then there is my other source of temptation:

Why the need to know, I wonder? (It's such a relief to let outcomes take care of themselves.)

Because in general nothing interesting happens in my life. There are unpleasant shocks, but I should work my ... off to create positive changes. Some things seems to unfold too slowly. Nothing comes easy. And many things don't change at all, visibly at least.
My urge is to know if something interesting can come out of this life, finally.

 

[marybluesky]

Some time ago when we last interacted,
You mentioned living with family. And hanging out socially with an 'odd' relative.

Are you still doing that?
Or have you expanded your horizons again?

I ask because the readings seem to say to do that.

This thread is not a personal reading and by discussing these points I'll go out of the main discussion. At first I was hesitant to reply because it sounds like our unpleasant last interactions are repeating. But now I'm decided to write a long, long reply in the open space.

 

[moss elk]

This thread is not a personal reading.

I would wager that you are the only person on this forum that thinks that is true.

Best of luck, sincerely.

 

[dobro p]

Then there is my other source of temptation:

dobro p: Why the need to know, I wonder?

Because in general nothing interesting happens in my life. There are unpleasant shocks, but I should work my ... off to create positive changes. Some things seems to unfold too slowly. Nothing comes easy. And many things don't change at all, visibly at least.
My urge is to know if something interesting can come out of this life, finally.

Well, I was asking that question of Viru10, but if it resonates with you, that's good. Some impressions, in no particular order:

* I think most people *want* to know when they consult the Yi, but I was curious about the 'need to know' that Viru10 mentioned. Why so intense, I wondered? (Nothing wrong with intense. But why?) And 'need to know' sounded a bit driven to me (maybe it was the underlining of that phrase in Viru10's post). So... why so driven? Question: When you consult the Yi, is it more want to know, or need to know?

* Why 'a source of temptation'? Everybody who consults the Yi wants more knowledge than their conscious mind can muster on its own. That's the attraction and utility of the thing. But the word 'temptation' sounds like you're giving in to a weakness that you should resist. Is that the case?

* You describe an existence that is boring, hard and unpleasant. It's the 'boring' bit that suggests a lack of meaning/search for meaning. If that's the case, then you're dealing with the commonest malady of our time - meaninglessness. Loss of soul. No juice. If nothing in your outside life brings joy, then you have to go inside, deeper even than the conversations you have with yourself about what you think and how you feel. When you start to relate to that inner depth, life and meaning come back into the system. The I Ching is one way that some people have found to establish a working relationship with that inner depth. Other ways exist as well, of course. Finding one that works for you - that's the ticket! (I use psychoanalysis and dreamwork, meditation, active imagination, and the Yi.)

Okay, stepping down off my soapbox now.

ps The quote engine on this site could be a *lot* more user-friendly lol.

 

[my_key]

A couple of threads have been woven in and out of the last few posts - OCD and 'not knowing' - which could well carry a common theme.

How I see OCD is that the obsession is based in anxiety and the anxiety is based in fear, The compulsion is the ritual that has been found (really or imagined) that protects us from the forces that produce and feed our fears. The obsession resides in the mind, the compulsion normally involves some physical activity. It is the way in which some control or manage their world in order to feel a modicum of safety in it. We do not trust that the world is a safe place. Most people display a small measure of obsessive compulsion without it escalating to the state of being a disorder. However when the condition escalates to being a mental health disorder then it is a very difficult thing to live with.

'Not Knowing' can also hold a sense of not trusting. We are unable to accept that the world and life is a mystery and should be lived as such. Through not being accepting of the mystery we are looking to gain understanding of all things and in particular bring a sense of control into our future.

Forewarned is forearmed! Who knows what dangers may lie around the corner? With this mindset there is a strong sense of an associated lack of trust in self. I do not trust myself enough to survive the next mystery. The need to know can, therefore, for some become an obsession and the ritual could easily be one of making castings and inquiring of Yi.

It is important to recognise that much of life is mundane; it is designed to be so. Of course life can contain magical moments or high spots but in the main human existence is lived in the mundane (as the Buddhists say 'chopping wood and carrying water') and many believe that the most effective way to elevate the mundane is to show gratitude of what we do have rather than placing all our focus on what we don't have.

The mundane can be a difficult territory to navigate through. Life can become meaningless when unhealthy thoughts or behaviours rule the roost. It is important to obtain meaning of some sort and this can be established over time especially if we are able to energise within ourselves a true sense of belonging. This can be seen as the crackling fire that warms us and allows us to sit restfully and at ease within the comfort of our own home.

 

[surnevs]

The I Ching is an ancient divination method with its own social, relational and hierarchical patterns.

That said I wonder if its good fortune and pitfall are based on what this philosophy considers to be right and wrong rather than what's best for the querent or makes her happy (yes, happiness is important to me).

For instance consider the line 2.3. It indicates following a king's work and not demanding much for yourself is the right thing to do, because the I Ching considers the king to be superior. Well, such a position might not be satisfactory in real life.

I can also think about the lines that talk about meeting a mature human being (1.2, 1.5, 17.3). Well, what to do if you receive these lines about forming a good relationship and you know that you are not attracted to mature men? I guess the I Ching considers it normal and good as in 28.2 so it doesn't matter if you want it or not, as a woman it invites you to date mature men because your role is to reproduce and be in service of others.

(I'm not ashamed of talking like that because younger people are more attractive in general. It's entirely acceptable for men to lust after young women and to despise women out of shape. So why shouldn't I be honest about what I am and am not attracted to?)

I'm afraid that by following this advice I lose the opportunity to enjoy my life as a young energetic person as it pushes me to settle with a mature man I am not attracted to in order to be in his service.

This Cut&Past is from Hex. 32.5 where Wu Jing-Nuan in his book "Yi Jing" [ read Hillary Barret's review ] claims the first sorcerers were women, sorceresses...
If you use the Wilhelm/Baynes translation I do think that it's written in accordance with "old Imperial school traditions" due to that Richard Wilhelms mentor/initiator/teacher Lao Nai-hsüan (or Lao Naixuan, 1843-1921) was such an old school scholar ("The Soul of China", Richard Wilhelm, Butler & Tanner, GB 1928) - Well, in this, I could have misunderstood I must confess - and you may be met with such viewpoints concerning Matriarchal vs. Patriarchal in the translation.
Held Wu Jing-Nuans claim to be true it may be seen as a bit odd that the I should be weighted towards a Patriarchal point of view, I think.....

 

[marybluesky]

Beautiful comment surnevs

You made my day

 

[Liselle]

It might be a good idea just to ignore the specific words altogether and think of it as archetypes and concepts.

Or think about what lines would mean if they were applied to inanimate objects. If I asked about a chair and got 28.2, it would probably mean get it re-upholstered. If I got it about a car, it would probably mean it's worth fixing - the car has plenty of life left in it if x/y/z is fixed. Things like that.

 

[Liselle]

Another thing to think about - even way-back-when in ancient China, the king himself would have cast things like hexagram 54 from time to time. Imagine trying to tell a king that he's a powerless young girl. The solution is that's not what it would have meant. Even a king finds himself in strange new situations where he doesn't have control and has to adapt as best as possible...

 

[my_key]

Paintings not related to I Ching studies, though may inevitably be influenced.

It feels like the pieces want to be born,
and I am just assisting, if that makes any sense. I do not have an image in mind or sketches before starting, each one kind of develops in it's own way. Each very different from the other.

That makes perfect sense and it all sounds like a very organic and intuitive process.
Your words reminded me of the philosophy of Michelangelo with respect to his approach to sculpting

"Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it."

I hope you give birth to some unique and magical pieces of art.

 

[rosada]

I haven’t read this whole thread so this comment may be out of place but just thinking about how just as we may wonder if it’s appropriate to consult the I Ching if we don’t share it’s values one might also have a similar question about reading the Bible as in is it appropriate to celebrate Christmas or try to practice the golden rule or take comfort from reciting The Lord’s Prayer if one doesn’t believe that Jesus is the only son of God and swear that all non-believers are doomed to eternal damnation? I think the answer to that is that many people benefit from these books even without adopting all the recommendations.

 

[my_key]

I haven’t read this whole thread so this comment may be out of place but just thinking about how just as we may wonder if it’s appropriate to consult the I Ching if we don’t share it’s values one might also have a similar question about reading the Bible as in is it appropriate to celebrate Christmas or try to practice the golden rule or take comfort from reciting The Lord’s Prayer if one doesn’t believe that Jesus is the only son of God and swear that all non-believers are doomed to eternal damnation? I think the answer to that is that many people benefit from these books even without adopting all the recommendations.

Humans beliefs can very easily be circumstance based. There are many stories of people facing 'certain death' praying for God's help when they have never prayed before in their life.

The benefits can come, perhaps, not just from the belief but also from the sense of connection to cultural ritual and cultural roots that praying or consulting the I Ching brings with it. These can evoke very strong senses of 'coming home' and belonging that can provide a source for great comfort. There is also the added bonus that the prayer or the I Ching consultation, in that tiny moment of consultation and connection with a higher body, unfolds an alternate level of belief that this thing might actually work despite what life long views are held.

Maybe we are just tapping into hope at these moments of crisis or indecision in our lives.