"Crossing the great water"

bruce_g · Jun 1, 2007

thinbuddha said:
I can't find it now, but I know that I read somewhere in the Wilhelm Baynes translation (or commentaries) that the crossing of the great waters refered to going into a temple for spiritual worship. It said that back in the day, temples were usually built with their entrance facing water, so that one would have to cross that water to enter. I know that this doesn't completely make sense (this is partially why I remember it- I mean just because a door is facing water doesn't mean one has to cross the water to enter the door...... unless the door is right on the water......)

This may all be based on outdated archeology, but I read it in a book, so it must be true.

:bows:

I can definitely see entering the temple as crossing a great water or a great divide. Sitting to meditate or pray, as well.

dobro p · Jun 2, 2007

bradford said:
While we're on the subject, let's get rid of "wading" right now.
Really - how great a stream can it be if we can wade across it?
This is the kiddie end of the gene pool. Is it a consequence of
our democracy and egalitarianism that we set our standards
for greatness so low?

Dunno bout the despicable end of the wading pool, but Karcher says that she4 means 'walk in or through the water' and says also that it *contrasts* with 'ford' (ji4) which means 'to cross'.

Maybe he used a different dictionary? Or perhaps his translation is somewhat a product of his imagination?

bradford · Jun 2, 2007

dobro said:
but Karcher says that she4 means 'walk in or through the water' and says also that it *contrasts* with 'ford' (ji4) which means 'to cross'.
Maybe he used a different dictionary? Or perhaps his translation is somewhat a product of his imagination?

No, wading across is in fact one of its meanings, and it might even be the earliest one etymologically, being tracks on either side of the water. But that could also be from embarking and disembarking at the ford. But by the Early Zhou it was used with both meanings - wade across and cross by boat (Schuessler). I would maintain against Karcher's assertion here that at least in the context of "Great stream," and context is extremely important in Chinese, wading is either impossible or foolish. And swimming is limited to only the desperate.
I'm sensitive to this word too - the name bradford means broad ford, a broad place to cross the stream. But that's a little English stream, not the He, Yangtze or Yellow Rivers.

dobro p · Jun 2, 2007

Yeah, the da4 chuan1 argument's a good one - would you wade big water? Doesn't make sense, unless the situation was relative
'

rosada · Jun 2, 2007

Another river referance: the Rubicon is a small river in Northern Italy. Caesar's crossing it with his army in 49 B.C. constituted an illegal entry into the country and thereby initiated civil war.

The expression, "Crossing the Rubicon" thus means to embark on an undertaking from which one can not turn back.

bradford · Jun 2, 2007

dobro said:
Yeah, the da4 chuan1 argument's a good one - would you wade big water? Doesn't make sense, unless the situation was relative
'

I've crossed a little big water, and sometimes wound up wading. Never surfed anything over 10 feet though, or boated anything above Class IV, or swum a river wider than 200 yards.

I think it's important to note that to render She as "to cross" allows all the legitimate meanings: to wade, to go by ferry, to cross on wagon or horseback, etc.

Also important to note that it means crossing the river width-wise instead of lengthwise,
which s more fatal.

Rosada-
Yeah, the Rubicon (alea jacta est, the die is casr) is a great association. Thought of a few other images too last night - like the bamboo rafts 50,000 years ago that brought the first settlers to Australia. Or the 90 ft ships 4000 years ago that brought Africans to Fiji. Then there's the huge herds of wildebeests trying to swim past the gauntlet of crocs.

rosada · Jun 2, 2007

Just noticed that 27.3 and 27.4 could be read as having something to say about ambition both negative (27.3) and positive (27.4).

bradford · Jun 2, 2007

rosada said:
Just noticed that 27.3 and 27.4 could be read as having something to say about ambition both negative (27.3) and positive (27.4).

That would make a lot more sense if posted on the other thread

rosada · Jun 2, 2007

Could be, but I'm refering to comments made on this thread. Scroll back to #17.

bradford · Jun 2, 2007

rosada said:
Could be, but I'm refering to comments made on this thread. Scroll back to #17.

I just did, but only saw Bruté's post on ambition that referenced 44.
I'm confyoozed :blush:

bruce_g · Jun 2, 2007

rosada said:
Just noticed that 27.3 and 27.4 could be read as having something to say about ambition both negative (27.3) and positive (27.4).

Even the best intentioned ambition (27.4) can be misguided. Just think of all those zealots banging on doors to convert the unsaved. And, leaving what food is being offered (27.3) can sometimes be best for your health. That's a problem with ambition as a guide: good and bad are relative.

rosada · Jun 3, 2007

I don't mean Ambition being an inner guide like a Spiritual Guide that can guide one around one's own poor choices. No, I just meant Ambition can guide one around distractions to the goal one has chosen.

bruce_g · Jun 3, 2007

Ambition as a co-worker, a member of the army or family, yes.

But, Rosada, your quote was: “or the inner guide that steers one past all the worldly temptations.” That doesn’t sound like just a tool; it sounds like a televangelist.

A peek at 7.5 reveals an appropriate place for ambition. The eldest leads, the young (ambitious but unseasoned ones) are relegated to less decisive tasks.

bruce_g · Jun 3, 2007

Oops, you edited "tool" out of your post.

rosada · Jun 3, 2007

See what I mean? Great laughs and merryment over horseradish and now not a day later I'm accused of being a televangelist.

I take it back, okay?
Geez.

rosada · Jun 3, 2007

p.s. I'm being amusing.

bruce_g · Jun 3, 2007

It's a conversation about ambition, Rosada. No one is accusing you of being anything. Why take it as a personal affront? I took your comments earnestly, something open to discussion. My bad.

rosada · Jun 3, 2007

UH-oh. Mixed signals starting to manefest.

I really was trying to be funny. I simply couldn't resist the pun potential. Wow, what a literal example of the necessity of ambition and focus to get one past worldly temptations. I mean, had I been truly focused on communication, if I had been ambitions for nothing less that full understanding, I wouldn't have been at all tempted at the possibility of making jokes, cause I wouldn't have wanted anything less than reality to manefest.

So, please, you forgive me. It's Spring in the mountains these days. It does make a person a little crazy.

bruce_g · Jun 3, 2007

Ok, a pinkie shake and the deal is sealed.

rosada · Jun 3, 2007

Perfecto.

Okay back to the river crossing. I been thinking of the river stix dividing the worlds of Life and Death, or the Life we know about and the Life we can only wonder about.. How about,

Crossing The River: Going from dreaming your life, to living your dream.

dobro p · Jun 3, 2007

Okay, the horse ain't dead yet, so I'm gonna hit it one more time.

Worthwhile crossing great waters - it seems to me that the crux of this (isn't 'crux' a good word?) is that you EMBARK on something major. It doesn't necessarily mean achieving the crossing of the waters in question, but more that you make a start. 'The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step' sort of thing.

What think you?

charly · Jun 4, 2007

rosada said:
...the Life we know about and the Life we can only wonder about. ... Crossing The River: Going from dreaming your life, to living your dream.

Quite right!

To take the challenge of living your dream is ever great, no matter the physical size of your proyect. Even a little stream can be a great river for those whom are little enough.

Please, take a look at this...
http://www.lotour.com/snapshot/2006-9-8/snapshot_46647_1.shtml

Chinese disgress, for people fond of:

I think that chuan (川) speaks of a stream of water, no matter if a great river or a little brook, and also has more yin meanings, feminine, female, earth. The radical form looks like three turned eights , 3 ba (巛).

He (河) and Jiang (江), more used for long rivers, have more yang, powerfull meaning: He = Water + Able, Jiang = Water + Work.

Zhen(圳) = small brook = Earth + 川 Stream (?).
Liu (流) also has the chuan component, means flow, current, tendency.

Yours,

Charly

charly · Jun 4, 2007

dobro said:
... is that you EMBARK on something major. It doesn't necessarily mean achieving the crossing of the waters in question, but more that you make a start. 'The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step' sort of thing...

May be your «fist step» is one of the two left and right steps (步) alluded in character She (涉), you are embarking, the achievement is uncertain. If the project is of great importance for you, better you make something to propitiate your first step, something like «would to God!»

May be I Ching is warning you «Things are long», may be «li she da chuan» is an incantation or a ritual for getting good luck for you.

Yours,

Charly

bruce_g · Jun 4, 2007

«would to God!»

I like that, Charly. Maybe it might also be translated as "will to power" ~ Nietzsche

charly · Jun 4, 2007

bruce_g said:
«would to God!»
I like that, Charly. Maybe it might also be translated as "will to power" ~ Nietzsche

Bruce, here you have a link to the «The Birth of Tragedy» with the story of King Midas and Silenus:

http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/nietzsche_birth_tragedy_part_B.htm

From another translation: "There is an ancient story that King Midas hunted in the forest a long time for the wise Silenus, the companion of Dionysus, without capturing him. When Silenus at last fell into his hands, the king asked what was the best and most desirable of all things for man. Fixed and immovable, the daemon said not a word, till at last, urged by the king, he gave a shrill laugh and broke out into these words:«Wretched ephemeral race, children of chance and misery, why do you force me to tell you what it would better for you not to know? Nietzsche:The Birth of Tragedy

With oracles, better be gentle.

As the uruguayan writer Wimpi says: When the guy wants to be sure about something by its own eyes, he gets congealed. (I quote from memory)

Yours,:bows:

Charly

charly · Jun 4, 2007

dobro said:
... Karcher says that she4 means 'walk in or through the water' ...
Maybe he used a different dictionary? Or perhaps his translation is somewhat a product of his imagination?

One way of walking over a stream is by jumping from stone to stone, if there were such stones, of course, but not impossible.

Charly

charly · Jun 4, 2007

bradford said:
... wading is either impossible or foolish. And swimming is limited to only the desperate.

Sarmiento, who later got an Honoris Causa Ph Doctor degree for Michigan University, describes the crossig of Paraná River by the Big Army, commanded by Urquiza for defeating the tyranny of Rosas:

[On 24/12/1851] ... General Urquiza was ... giving the necessary dispositions to march on the enemy ... he wants to turn the terror a motor ... to force others, with risk of his life, to overcome difficulties, against which no intelligent aid is put into play.

The soldiers, swimming, fought hours and hours with the horses that from the middle of the river came back and returned to the shore...

... the result of the magical fascination of the General was that in all the day only passed 600 horses from 30.000 that waited their opportunity ...

On the following day, not having one who exerted the spell of the terror, it was gone to vulgar means... and 2.600 horses went that day. ...

[Later] a Brazilian little steam was added ... then the swiming passage ... like is wild Indians practice, became steam passage ...

Sarmiento: Campaña del Ejército Grande / Campaign of the Big Army

People can make all sort of desperate things.

Charly

Sparhawk · Jun 4, 2007

charly said:
As the uruguayan writer Wimpi says: When the guy wants to be sure about something by its own eyes, he gets congealed. (I quote from memory)

Charly

OMG!! You are quoting Wimpi?!? How old are you, Charly?? :rofl:

Un abrazo,

L

PS: I just saw your DOB in your profile. I thought so. Not many people remembers Wimpi, a philosopher disguised as a humorist. The only way to be taken seriously...

bruce_g · Jun 4, 2007

charly said:
With oracles, better be gentle.

Really, Charly? What is gentle about life which would necessitate taking an oracle's sentiment into account? Is truth more gentle than a stone, congealed though it may be?

charly · Jun 4, 2007

sparhawk said:
... Not many people remembers Wimpi, a philosopher disguised as a humorist...D

Luis:

«The valley spirit never die» (LaoZi)

Having red «The Crazy Worm», no matter if many years ago, How could anybody forget him? I loosed the book but I still remember the story: the guy is alone at home waitig for the frigidaire. When he receipt it, he wants to verify if the light automatically puts off when clossing the door. He enters in the cabinet and closes the door from inside, he gets congealed.

It's an advise not only for scientific research, for real life too! Don't be perfectionist, nobody's perfect!

La yapa:

Data for thinking the character yi (頤):

The component to the right have ancient versions that look like a masked man (as Harmen says), another versions look like a big eye on top of a tiny man's body, the superior part is ever disproportionatedly greater. The second variant seems a worm whit a big eye, the «One-Eyed Worm»!

And I don't speak you about the left component, the Brad's «Hungry Mouth», because the scene could be to much shocking.

Un abrazo,

Charly

P.D.: I also quoted Sarmiento who is older than Wimpi but a humorist too.

"Crossing the great water"

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