"Crossing the great water"

[Sparhawk]

Data for thinking the character yi (頤):

The component to the right have ancient versions that look like a masked man (as Harmen says), another versions look like a big eye on top of a tiny man's body, the superior part is ever disproportionatedly greater. The second variant seems a worm whit a big eye, the «One-Eyed Worm»!

Good one!

P.D.: I also quoted Sarmiento who is older than Wimpi but a humorist too.

Oh, but Sarmiento was much more than that. Amazing man, to say the least.

L

 

[charly]

Really, Charly? What is gentle about life which would necessitate taking an oracle's sentiment into account? Is truth more gentle than a stone, congealed though it may be?

Bruce:

May be sounds some pagan, but I think that all things below the sun (even straw dogs, even stones) have it own soul. If you're not gentle, things can take revenge. Midas was not a prudent man. People generally are not prudent people. And so the world goes as it goes. But we are free to choose. If the Other World exists, each one shall take what belongs to him, and if not, he has yet taken it in this world.

May be I'm wrong.

The guy congealed story is about trust.

Never is sad the truth, which does not have is remedy.
John Manuel Serrat : Each fool with his obsession (?)

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Good one!

Hey Luis:

Do you have «The Crazy Worm»?
There Wimpi puts a skeleton x-ray plate and says that x-ray plates are photos that advance (like a clock).
Something about us.

Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

El gusano loco? (crazy worm) No, I don't have it. I gotta search Google to see if I can find it. I have an extensive library at home, on many subjects, but I also left a lot of books behind when I moved North. Only books I brought with me were my Yijing books (after all, it was the Yijing that kicked my butt out of the paisito... )

L

 

[bruce_g]

Bruce:

May be sounds some pagan, but I think that all things below the sun (even straw dogs, even stones) have it own soul. If you're not gentle, things can take revenge. Midas was not a prudent man. People generally are not prudent people. And so the world goes as it goes. But we are free to choose. If the Other World exists, each one shall take what belongs to him, and if not, he has yet taken it in this world.

May be I'm wrong.

The guy congealed story is about trust.



Yours,

Charly

Hi Charly,

I'm anything but a Nietzsche expert, but "will to power" isn't to be interpreted as 'forcing will', such as the Nazis used it. It is the force behind all things, even a stone. Hence the motivation behind crossing the great water. Not so different, in my view, from “would to God”.

I believe in gentleness, but not as a deciding factor, only as a preferred form, when possible. I see little about life and nature that is gentle, although gentleness does exist, such as a lioness loving and tending to her cubs. But when a new dominant male enters the domain, he kills the father and the cubs, and then mates with the widow - thus ensuring the survival of the fittest of his species. He crosses a great water in that act, but is anything but gentle.

The revenge to watch for is our own, not that of the gods.

 

[charly]

... will to power ... is the force behind all things, even a stone. Hence the motivation behind crossing the great water. Not so different, in my view, from “would to God” ...

Hi, Bruce:

OK, even a stone has an inner drive and at the proper time it will cross its great water and will change itself. You'r right.

About the gentleness I want to mean another thing. People have two ways to behave:

1) the hard or violent and
2) the soft or peaceful.

People not aware (all of us) have the tendency to act by the firsth way too much. People are free for to choose at each time, but cann't choose ever the same way.

When you are consulting an oracle or a shaman, the mediator has the power of to confuse you or to invoke for you propitious strenghts. If you don't trust, better don't consult, you must never force the oracle or the shaman.

Whit oracles be gentle, if not dissaster waits.

Coming back to great river:

I think that «li she da chuan», by his repetitive apearence could be a ritual formula rather than an assertion, a formula for getting help for crossing, an invocation to propitious gods.

When is time of crossing rivers, some help is never bad. If you'r aware, making propitious the moment you'r being gentle with your future.

I attach some frames from an Hugo Pratt's comic strip where he narrates a sequence of the life of Baron Ungern-Sternberg (aka Unger Kahn):

Shamanka:
I see only much blood, Ungern Khan... much blood...

Ungern:
You say that to me, witch... but you don't say if I will win! Stupid!

Shamanka, with a bone in his hand:
Here only says that you will kill much... that you will spill much blood.

Ungern, shooting her:
Then I will begin with yours, damn!
Bang! Bang!

Hugo Pratt: Corto Maltese in Siberia (Corte sconta detta Arcana)

It's not necessary to be wizard, this guy is going to finish badly.

Thanks for your time.

Yours,

Charly

 

[bruce_g]

Your point is well taken, Charly.

I guess my sentiment toward deity, shaman, sage or oracle is based more on candor than on gentleness. I view a truly great power or personage to be beyond formality, delicacy or diplomacy. Not beyond dismissing arrogance or foolishness, though, which is how I receive your advise.

Thanks

 

[Sparhawk]

Hmm, Charly..., that translation of "Bang! Bang!" was a little off the mark...

L

 

[charly]

Hmm, Charly..., that translation of "Bang! Bang!" was a little off the mark...
L

Hi, Luis:

I couldn't resist! You can verify that «Bang! Bang!» is really in the comic. To me this sounds a little ridiculous. I prefer when Hugo (the italian best argentine sketcher) used «Crack!» instead of «Bang!».

And did you liked the sequence?

The sketch with the bone and the shamanka, don't make you remind something?

Charly

 

[charly]

... I view a truly great power or personage to be beyond formality, delicacy or diplomacy...

Bruce:

Quite right! You don't need advices. Maybe it wasn't lucky to choose the word «gentle». My english is no good. Say «X» (which should be the word?). The «X» is completely different from formality, diplomacy, etc. The Wind, being so gentle(1), wears mountains away.

Yours,

Charly

-----------------------------------
(1) Remember Wilhelms' «gentle penetration». What was he speaking about?

 

[bruce_g]

Bruce:

Quite right! You don't need advices. Maybe it wasn't lucky to choose the word «gentle». My english is no good. Say «X» (which should be the word?). The «X» is completely different from formality, diplomacy, etc. The Wind, being so gentle(1), wears mountains away.

Yours,

Charly

-----------------------------------
(1) Remember Wilhelms «gentle penetration». What was he speaking about?

Ever sail through a hurricane, Charly? Ever lie in bed and wonder if your house is going to hold together through the night's desert winds? I don't know where Wilhelm ever got the idea that the nature of wind is gentle. Penetrating, absolutely.

Ever raise your fist and shout at God, Charly? Doesn't seem to ruffle his feathers one bit, if you are being honest. Does that mean it's wrong to be gentle with gods or people? No. Gentleness is a nice quality. Reverence is a good emotion and state of mind. Respect also. I value transparency even more, and so naturally my gods and "spiritual teacher" do likewise.

But if you esteem gentleness most, then that is your path.

 

[bruce_g]

"My religion is kindness." Dalai Lama

"When ribbon grass is pulled up, the sod comes with it. Each according to his kind." Wilhelm 11.1

"What is born of heaven feels related to what is above. What is born of earth feels related to what is below. Each follows its kind." Wilhelm/Confucius 1.5

 

[Sparhawk]

I couldn't resist! You can verify that «Bang! Bang!» is really in the comic. To me this sounds a little ridiculous. I prefer when Hugo (the italian best argentine sketcher) used «Crack!» instead of «Bang!».

I saw it, of course. That's why I was laughing. I found the "transliteration" of the onomatopoeia hilarious...

"Crack!" for the onomatopoeia of a gun firing? What is that, a .22 caliber (matagatos)?? That's not a real gun. A good "Bang!" must be at least a .357 or a .45...

The sketch with the bone and the shamanka, don't make you remind something?

Scapulimancy?? A good Argentinian "asado" (BBQ)? I don't know but I'm hungry now... As for the fate of the shaman, it goes to show that "divining" is a contact sport...

BTW, growing up I was a fan of "Nippur de Lagash" and "Gilgamesh" comic books. Some of the best comics in Spanish, ever, IMO.

L

 

[charly]

... Scapulimancy?? ... "divining" is a contact sport...
...I was a fan of "Nippur de Lagash" ...
L

Yes, Luis, scapulimancy, but about H.27.

Lucho Olivera, of course, among others, the drawing, but I don't remember who wrote Nippur. Hugo was more aged, I believe, I was from time of mythical Misterix and Sargent Kirk.

When Corto Maltese appears I was no more a kid, but...

I attach you a sample for viewing what sort of people Sgto.Kirk gone with. The brunette was Kirk's preferred, the blond guy in the corner, his friend, was also named Corto. How many years before the Maltese?

Do you know that Corto (Short, in english) has much to do with H.27?
But this is another story.

(to be continued)

Un abrazo,


Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

Last night I was re-reading an old book and the author was talking about some of the old traditional Chinese festivals, in particular, the Dragon Boat Race. It falls, traditonally, on the "Fifth Day of the Fifth Month" (Chinese lunar calendar), or "Double Five Day". This year, the day falls on June 19th. If you link to the place you'll learn that the purpose of the festival is "sacrificial" in nature (viz. an offering is made to the Dragon Spirit of the river) Even nowadays, if nobody falls from a boat, the race is considered "unlucky." What struck me as interesting was that one of the examples of the "old" versions of the festival would involve two opposing bands of people "wading" a river and throwing rocks at each other until one (or more) of them is felled by a stone and either drowns or is put out of his misery by a few more strategically placed stones. The felled participant(s) was considered the "sacrifice" to the Dragon Spirit.

Just some food for the cerebral wormies...

L

PS: In this case Dragon Spirit is contextually the same as "Water Spirit"

 

[charly]

Ever sail through a hurricane, Charly? ...

Bruce:

Don't get upset with me. I'm only thinking with my fingers on the keyboard. Only shootings in the dark...

I need your opinion about some observations on animal behavior. May I?

I have the impression that when an animal sight downwards implies certain class of submission, but not necessarily obedience.

By example: a dominant male is from the high controlling the passage in a narrow place. He looks fixedly at anybody that wants to cross.

Another male, fears, but decides to cross by that place. He bends the head, watches downwards and in another direction, as if he didn't read the prohibition glance, as if he could cross without being noticed. He doesn't defy, but he transgresses, accepts the risks and, possibly, he crosses.

Can this happen with the great cats?

If we applied this to the tiger that watches downwards, as much it could be the dominant one as the transgressor one.

The I Ching advice could be:

1) «Look fiercely», or
2) «Don't defy»,

In any case would finish: «take obsessive care of your own goals».
Only to the transgressor could be applied «be profitable to cross the great stream».


Do you think so?

Yours,


Charly

 

[charly]

... The felled participant(s) was considered the "sacrifice" to the Dragon Spirit... Just some food for the cerebral wormies...
PS: In this case Dragon Spirit is contextually the same as "Water Spirit"

Luis:

This reminds me the old Sacrifice of the River's Bride.

Here there are much people fighting, what for?

1) For not be taken as river's bride.
2) For be taken as that.

People that want not to be taken, surely don't fight.

Remains issue two: they envy the feminine roll. Some guys want to be princess although in it they gamble the life.

Anyway they are better than primitives, those guys that sent the girl to the river (surely they must have many more in earth).

Another worm by ...

Yours,


Charly

 

[naturesway]

My first post

Crossing the great stream or great water for me is the crossing from conscious mind to the unconscious mind.

 

[naturesway]

Surperlative explanation.

 

[bradford]

What do you guys suppose that the authors meant by the expression,given that they did not have any philosophical notions about the conscious and unconscious? What do you think it meant to them when they wrote down the words?

 

[meng]

Wow, Charly, your question escaped my notice, and nature's way brought it back.

The body language you describe is submissive, yes. (edit) But if you want to know a dogs position, just observe the tail. When it's up, they mean business, when it's down, even if they're still acting aggressively, barking etc, they're willing to at least test your (or another dog or human's) leadership.

In dogs, I've noticed no distinction of gender of pack alphas. Perhaps in wild wolves and coyotes etc, there is, however. I dunno. And in cats, pretty much the same. It's attitude over gender, pretty much. Of course that's not the way of Lions, but then maybe she only gives him hell in private. Or maybe she accidentally had a bad hunting day and brings home no dinner for his majesty. Some things are pretty universal.

What do you guys suppose that the authors meant by the expression,given that they did not have any philosophical notions about the conscious and unconscious? What do you think it meant to them when they wrote down the words?

How do you know the authors had no philosophical notions about the conscious and unconscious? Just because they didn't use those terms or exact models doesn't mean they, and those before, haven't contemplated their own duality. I am here and also over there.

But to answer your question, they meant to get from here to there.

 

[Alfred11]

I know this is a very old thread, but I was exploring the meaning of this phrase on Google today an happened upon it. Cultures may clash when it comes to symbology, however, as an intuitive dream interpreter, I look at the context within which water, usually a symbol for emotions, shows up in dreams.

Bodies of water can symbolize different qualities of emotions related to how they are considered by human beings in everyday life: lakes and ponds can tend to signify a dwelling place; streams, creeks, brooks can mean an easy and gentle flow of emotions; rivers, tributaries channels imply travel, but also natural borders; and oceans and seas, the vast, expansive and potentially dangerous unknown, either peril or adventure, depending on the context and weather; a swamp usually means stagnation.

The feeling I get in my modern-day brain-heart-gut mind about "crossing the Great Water" is about a transition from one state to another, a symbol for making a change, making a major move forward with a plan, a journey, or life in general. So it being advantageous or propitious means that the crossing is definitely within one's means and will prove worthwhile once on the other side of the transition.

This seems to have consistently been the case in my own experience (that i can remember) when I've read this in a personal oracle reading, so I thought I would chime in after YEARS of availing myself of the community wisdom on this website.

THANK YOU buy the way, for helping me to contemplate this deep and sometimes crystal-clear, sometimes frustratingly mysterious oracle!

 

[picklebop]

In my practice, this term has signified completing an undertaking or taking a leap forward. Yet, I'm curious what the original implications of this term were and how it is translated, and if there's something in it I may have missed.

Illumination requested.

Although it's not wholly relevant, it makes me think of the Chinese expeditions which travelled as far as Africa. They had amazingly good navigation skills and some people think they even managed to reach Ethiopia by 2nd century BC. So the great water sometimes makes me think of seas, as well as rivers and lakes.

 

[FrankieT]

Hi everyone, this is most interesting. Does anyone address what "water" actually is. Is it an outward thing like a physical body of water, or is it an internal representation, perhaps like something elemental ,that we have to bridge in some way, and the greater the symbolic "water" the greater the effort and the greater consciousness we might require.
Would that then, if it is principally internal and not external, perhaps then render some readings as possibly saying that these things are beyond our present capacity, and change the entire context of the interpretation of that readings.
For myself while I am confident about traversing smaller internal streams, not being the Great Man, I would baulk at trying to cross great rivers with a limited consciousness.
Any thoughts?

 

[dfreed]

Chinese expeditions which travelled as far as Africa .... and some people think they even managed to reach Ethiopia by 2nd century BC. So the great water sometimes makes me think of seas

As I shared below, it's likely that the 'great rivers' were just that, especially since the Shang and Zhou were primarily inland peoples. One such river is the Yellow River, along which many ancient Chinese cultures and states had their beginnings. But as China expanded into an empire - and now a modern nation - I think we can legitimately includes 'seas' as part of these great journeys - both internally and externally.

One question I've pondered - sometimes as I've walked along the inland 'sea' where I live (Whidbey Island, Washington state, USA): is the sea represented by trigram (3-line figure) Water (moving rivers) or by trigram Lake / Marsh (where the moving waters slow down, become calm ... ) - or perhaps seas and oceans include aspects of both?

I am interested if you have any links or sources you can share about the Chinese traveling as far as Ethiopia by the 2nd Century BC 200-101 BC, which would have been during the Western Han (202 BC–9 AD) dynasty.

This would have been 6-7 centuries after the Zhouyi - the first part of the Yi - was supposed to have been written; but it falls within the time when many commentaries were added to create the Yijing we know today. I'm not sure however, if the these later commentaries, such as the Ten Wings mention seas or oceans? Perhaps.

Does anyone address what "water" actually is.

Some of what I'm sharing here may have been touched upon in earlier posts, so I apologize if some of what I'm sharing is repetitive. In the glossary of his book, "The Duke of Zhou Changes" (a translation of the Zhouyi, the earliest part of the Yi) Stephen Field says:

Crossing the great river: In ancient China bridges were rare. When rivers had to be crossed primitive barges were used, which were easily swamped in the swift and deep waters. So fording was a perilous activity. In the Yijing crossing a great river symbolizes undertaking hazardous enterprises, for which one may encounter great difficulties.

Journey: Travel was perilous in ancient China ... and because river-crossing was so difficult. So, embarking on a journey was a major undertaking. In the Yijing, going on a journey symbolizes making difficult decisions and the willingness to change directions in one’s life.

Based on this and other sources, I think 'crossing great rivers' was literal. Many accounts of early divination involved such crossings and journeys, sometimes for the purpose of waging war or territorial expansion - and if they were successful, they would return with captives, some of whom were later sacrificed.

Trigram (3-line figure) Water, or Moving Water, Exposure, or the Abyss - also comes to mind when I think about what 'water' 'actually' is. This trigram can represent being swept up or swept along by 'moving water', it can be about fear and a heightened awareness that we have in response to traveling through 'the abyss' - and also that this awareness is necessary to make such a journey. It also has associations with 'going with the flow' or going in one direction (downward).

The Yi works on many levels, so despite it's beginnings as a literal river crossing, it can include, or represent "a physical body of water, an internal (or external) representation, ... something elemental", and much more.

It can be an external act or challenge, and also an internal act of decision-making or bravery which is required to undertake a particular external journey. As to what 'great' is - that's very individual and varied: it might mean deciding to clean up one's home (one of my particular 'great rivers' that needs to be crossed!), or deciding to go back to college, or deciding to join the Marines ... or deciding to speak in front of a group of strangers, if that's something you are terrified of doing ...

... and in all these cases, it involves (or can involve) the actual act or action we take in response to first internally 'crossing a (or our own) great river'.

I hope that's of some use.
D

 

[my_key]

Hi everyone, this is most interesting. Does anyone address what "water" actually is. Is it an outward thing like a physical body of water, or is it an internal representation, perhaps like something elemental ,that we have to bridge in some way, and the greater the symbolic "water" the greater the effort and the greater consciousness we might require.
Would that then, if it is principally internal and not external, perhaps then render some readings as possibly saying that these things are beyond our present capacity, and change the entire context of the interpretation of that readings.
For myself while I am confident about traversing smaller internal streams, not being the Great Man, I would baulk at trying to cross great rivers with a limited consciousness.
Any thoughts?

Water has a clear symbology with emotions or emotional states in many contexts. For me, while 'crossing the great stream' can represent a physical external journey it most often makes sense in my readings as an emotional endeavour. And of course to make any emotional crossing successful we need to be rooted in a new awareness or wider consciousness.

 

[FrankieT]

Hi my_key, thanks for the response. Forgive my stupidity, but I dont understand. Are you saying it is both internal and external. How would the recipient of the reading know how to interpret. Is there something in the wording that I am missing that informs whether it is the one or the other. My limited comprehension would say that it can only be one or the other, and there would need to be clarity in the Yi to clarify whether to read as internal or external meaning. Thanks

 

[my_key]

Hi Frankie T
Firstly there is nothing stupid about not understanding. You ust don't understand; nothing more, nothing less.
Yes. crossing the waters can be both guidance for a physical, external endeavour or an internal one.
You may not be missing anything in the wording, more missing a sense or a feeling about what is right.

Think Goldilocks - She had options of different bowls of porridge to eat tried them all but knew which porridge was just right and ate it all up. Whether internal or external crossing comes more from a feel you get about the interpretation not the words printed in Yi.

Good Luck

 

[FrankieT]

Hi my_key. My apologies for my poor previous elucidations.
Either the Yi is something that is connecting and correlating with the external world, or, something that is connecting and correlating with the internal world. As there is nothing explicit in the Yi to differentiate one from the other, it can only be one or the other- internal or external. Not both, that would most obviously be illusory and a figment of imagination alone.
To suggest that it depends on a vague feeling would open the Yi to the abuse of the very underdeveloped knowledge that we are surely consulting the Yi to compensate for.
To be more blunt. I would have to question the possibility that the Yi can be used for anything other than internal personal development. And that any external interpretations could just as easily be obtained by consultation of tea leaves or counting crows, or any other form of the inventions throughout history that mankind has invented to assuage a lack of knowing and trusting in the true self and the divine.
Were the Yi meant for anything other than the realities of the inner world that would demean it, and its position of authority, sanctity, and upmost importance, to little more than the party tricks of the fortune teller.
Not to say that it couldnt't be done, but no better, than any other invented processes. Hardly the elevated position the Yi has held throughout history.

 

[moss elk]

Either the Yi is something that is connecting and correlating with the external world, or, something that is connecting and correlating with the internal world.

Really? According to whom?

there is nothing explicit in the Yi to differentiate one from the other, it can only be one or the other- internal or external. Not both, that would most obviously be illusory and a figment of imagination alone.

The emperor used it to rule his kingdom.
You know,
The kingdom that was external to his body.
Think about that for a moment.

It is good for introspection, character development and navel gazing as well.