"Crossing the great water"

[FrankieT]

Really? According to whom?



The emperor used it to rule his kingdom.
You know,
The kingdom that was external to his body.
Think about that for a moment.

It is good for introspection and navel gazing as well.

Really, according to the Yi itself.
One cannot look inward and outward at the same time, so a reading can only be in one direction at any given moment, and as the outer, external is by its very nature changeable and unreal, no definitions could ever be relied on to be accurate. Trying to make sense of the external can hardly be considered to be anything than chasing smoke and shadows. At times the smoke and shadow appears solid and real and then just as soon, gone.
Why else is there ambiguity and lack of clarity and comprehension.
Why else would there be a need for such a Forum if the Yi was anything but a tool for the inner world.
Unless the Yi was for the inner world, common to us all, the interpretations of a reading would be for that individual alone, would make sense to no one else and no one could offer any opinion or advice in regard to that reading.
Surely everyone that has responded to a post about a reading has recognised that only with the commonality of an inner world could there be any opinions about that reading.
Surely no one thinks that 64 hexagrams and a few moving lines could represent every event in the external world. But there can be no problem in distilling the inner world to basic elements.

And of course the Emperor ruled his kingdom. But where else would that Kingdom be but the inner world. We cant all be Emperors of an external kingdom. so the Yi can't be meant in that context, or it would only apply to the few that actually had a rulership, and that then only leaves the inner Kingdom.

 

[moss elk]

Whatever you say Frankie.
I won't argue with you.
Good luck.

 

[FrankieT]

Whatever you say Frankie.
I won't argue with you.
Good luck.

Thank you. But that is rather trite and appears to be suggesting that I have to agree with you or I must be wrong.
I have come to this forum in good faith. Hoping for some sort of answer to what appears to be a rather important question and feel rather insulted that you would attempt to trivialise what I consider to be of the upmost gravity.
I don't understand why anyone on the forum would try belittle anyone.
It appears as though you did want to argue with me.
Thank you

 

[dfreed]

Does anyone address what "water" actually is. Is it an outward thing like a physical body of water, or is it an internal representation

See my response, at post 85, I tried to address your question - and also picklebop's. D.

 

[my_key]

Either the Yi is something that is connecting and correlating with the external world, or, something that is connecting and correlating with the internal world.

From my perspective this appears to be a limiting world view that you hold.

As there is nothing explicit in the Yi to differentiate one from the other, it can only be one or the other- internal or external. Not both, that would most obviously be illusory and a figment of imagination alone.
To suggest that it depends on a vague feeling would open the Yi to the abuse of the very underdeveloped knowledge that we are surely consulting the Yi to compensate for.

From my perspective this appears to be a limiting world view that you hold.

To be more blunt. I would have to question the possibility that the Yi can be used for anything other than internal personal development. And that any external interpretations could just as easily be obtained by consultation of tea leaves or counting crows, or any other form of the inventions throughout history that mankind has invented to assuage a lack of knowing and trusting in the true self and the divine.

From my perspective tea leaves and counting crows can be equally effective. I have used both, and more, in the past to explore both external and internal crossings. Your comment, by extension, seems to indictate that tea leaves and crows are outside of the divine, which I would disagree with.

Were the Yi meant for anything other than the realities of the inner world that would demean it, and its position of authority, sanctity, and upmost importance, to little more than the party tricks of the fortune teller.

That sounds like an arrogant perspective. If Yi possesses all the magnificent qualities you say then surely it holds modesty close to it's core as well. As such, nothing would be below it. It would happily engage in any two-way communication that it is employed in and at whatever level chosen by the querent.

Not to say that it couldnt't be done, but no better, than any other invented processes. Hardly the elevated position the Yi has held throughout history.

Does the Yi really hold itself in such an 'elevated position' as you suppose? One where it puts itself above other divination systems. Or is it more held in a highly respected position because of the meek and mild way it goes about it's business in an unswerving way. The latter is worlds apart from the former.

 

[FrankieT]

Thanks dreed. It appears that I have not made myself clear.
There are literally an almost infinite number of questions that can be asked, but only 64 hexagrams. And therefore billions of questions that a single reading could apply to. If we then add the imprecise and symbolic wording of the Yi which would allow an even greater latitude to interpretations it becomes relatively easy to see that questions about external matters was never the domain of the Yi.
It would be most bizarre indeed therefore to consider that the Yi dealt with external matters.
Given those facts I have never used the Yi for any external matters but as the inner guide it was clearly intended for.
And so my question as to the meaning of waters, of any sort, and any sort of activity, such as crossing, was asking what is the symbolism referring to. What is the meaning in those terms.
Obviously no one would ask, if one is going to take the Yi as an external explanation, what a sea or a river is, a dictionary would suffice had someone never known what water was.
Given that the Yi has to be able to apply to someone that may not live near, or be able to travel to any body of water, only confirms that the actual meaning of such terms as water have to be symbolic of an internal process.
And I was enquiring if anyone had discovered, presumably from other sources relating to ancient China, if the actual intended meaning of such terms as waters, as there is no explanations in the Yi itself. Various speculations and opinions without reference to an original intended meaning dont address the question.
I myself have a number of possible suspects, but they are only that, and having a number of divergent possibilities only suggests that my personal interpretations cannot be considered accurate.
I hope that makes my question clearer. I obviously know what water is in an external sense. But does anyone have any evidence to show what the original intended symbolism might be.
Thanks

 

[moss elk]

Oh boy.

Now we are challenged to teach the difference between Facts and thoughts.

Everything else is irrelevant in conversation here.

Good luck with that everyone.

 

[dfreed]

It appears that I have not made myself clear .... Given those facts I have never used the Yi for any external matters but as the inner guide it was clearly intended for .....

Whatever the reason, I am having a hard time following and understanding your logic here.

What's absolutely true is you can make whatever rules or guidelines you want about how you use and work with the Yi. However, I question if these are universal truths or historic rules or 'facts' that apply to the Yi and how others use it.

But before i more fully respond, can you provide a few (2-3) examples of questions / queries you'd put to the Yi that fit your 'inner guide' model? And perhaps some 'external matters' you'd never ask the Yi about.

Regards, D

 

[Trojina]

Thank you. But that is rather trite and appears to be suggesting that I have to agree with you or I must be wrong.
I have come to this forum in good faith. Hoping for some sort of answer to what appears to be a rather important question and feel rather insulted that you would attempt to trivialise what I consider to be of the upmost gravity.
I don't understand why anyone on the forum would try belittle anyone.
It appears as though you did want to argue with me.

You say you came to this forum in 'good faith'? Hmm well you certainly have been answered here in good faith . As for the accusation of belittlement the correct procedure if you have such an allegation is to use the report button rather than attack on the thread. You have actually been answered fully and well by a number of people but you ignore them.


But you have been here before under a different name haven't you ? You remind me a great deal of 'jukkodave' whose preoccupation was more to do with probability. I say this as he had the habit of posting repetitive questions in all seeming innocence whilst basically winding people up by never hearing a word they said back and just repeating the same questions at length. He was banned for trolling the forum.

You have spread your repeated questions across 2 threads now in the way jukko did. This one also

Blog post: Foundations: trusting the oracle

Foundations: trusting the oracle When I teach the Yijing Foundations Class – which I’ll be doing again in September – I concentrate on the few really necessary basics for good readings: ways to relate to all the imagery (words and trigrams) understanding the structure of a reading (primary...

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

Whilst threads do go all sorts of places and that's not a problem the way you have taken over these 2 threads with your questioning and your deafness to responses is a tad overwhelming not to mention aggravating for respondents IMO. Therefore it seems a good idea to start your very own thread all about your questions. If you are unable to do this moderators can do it for you.