Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
The ancients had ancients, which we know nothing about.
Luis:
I understand that there is a possibility that the line advices «stop chatting, let your inner discourse have its order», something related with meditation, you ´re right.
But stillness is not the only way GEN can be translated. I believe that GEN can also promote ACTION, mainly religious action say WORSHIP, or maybe more general, HONOR, because the MAN of GEN is leaning in reverence, hanging from or also holding a BIG EYE, divinity, more precisely MOUNTAIN DIVINITY.
Mountain of waves?
In the context of Greek mythology Athos was the name of one of the Gigantes (Giants) that challenged the Greek gods during the Gigantomachia. Athos threw a massive rock against Poseidon which fell in the Aegean sea and became the Athonite Peninsula. According to another version of the story, Poseidon used the mountain to bury the defeated giant.
In the 6th line, the ruler of this hexagram is the stability on the top, this line is changing in 15. The phase of personal Earth, the outer trigram mountain(small Earth) is changing in trigram Earth(Big Earth). The Earth for all creatures.The inside stays personal here with trigram mountain but the outer world is connected with everyone now.
Here is the stabilty so strong that it is totally imbeded in the personality.
Frank
Must be a beautifull spot to wake up everyday Rodaki.
Allow me a last comment about mountains and their energy . .
In the island Samothrace, the mountain Moon, with waters constantly cascading down its slopes, is still known as "the Sanctuary of the Great Gods" . . the landscape still feels enchanted by ancient rituals and carries a very strong, almost eerie sense of energy issuing from its rocks . .
for more
http://www.xanga.com/Longobardese/675206020/98-an-aside-tocharian--china--iran-recent-archeology/ (towards the end of the page for Samothrace and the rituals worshipping gods and goddesses)
http://www.balkantravellers.com/en/read/article/113
:bows:
rodaki
hi Maria,
Samothraki is definitely one of the places to visit
but be prepared if you're going free camping in the mountains . . it can get a bit creepy at night
still it's worth it though
Dora
I had to catch up a lot of intersting posts.
First the 5th line, keeping his jaws still. so the idea of Gen, stillness or as Luis is writing "refractory, obstinate, resist. The graph shows a man with a big staring eye." Maybe when you cannot speak or understand the words than you have to look at the eyes of someone. The eyes as being the windows of the soul/spirit.
Here we have gone to the erea of the head. The jawbone - Fu 輔 has a referall to hexagram 27 Yi Jaws.
And the upper karma, the karma than can be lifted and controlled in 52 is also 27(When you make a nucleur hexagram of nucleur trigram thunder and upper trigram mountain you get 27).
The 5th line is very important for the future. Because it refers to the next hexagram 53. This line is the first act to come to motion again.
In the 6th line, the ruler of this hexagram is the stability on the top, this line is changing in 15. The phase of personal Earth, the outer trigram mountain(small Earth) is changing in trigram Earth(Big Earth). The Earth for all creatures.The inside stays personal here with trigram mountain but the outer world is connected with everyone now.
Here is the stability so strong that it is totally imbeded in the personality.
Frank
Thanks Maria
Janice, it was a big trip till now what you were telling some posts ago. Thanks for your personal story.
But about your question with the 5th line of 52 and the meridians in the neck.
the link with the neck is done by the already named extra- ordinary meridian Yang Wei Mai- the doorkeeper/bodyguard. This meridian has points allmost on all the yang meridians - Bladder, Galbladder, Stomach, 3Warmer, Small intestine and Gouvernor. This extra ordinary meridian is linked with trigram Thunder.
This one also runs over the already named erea in the neck. And is going over the top of the head to the basis of the skull and is ending at the point Du Mo 15 that is used in acupuncture with problems with speaking or with stifness of the tongue. This point rules over communication by the spoken word.
At the same time there is this link with the other extra ordinary meridian Yin Wei Mai, who has a connection with trigram mountain. This Meridian the Courtlady rules over the big live changes like birth, puberty, menopause and death.
This meridian is ending in the point Conception vessel 23, this is a little above the Adams Apple.
The name of this point is Lian Quan translated as pure/honest well/source.
This point is also used with tongue stiffnes. And has a connection with the source of all energies(the first chakra). And also with the heart and kidneys on the deepest level.
This point mobilises yin energy to the throat and head. It has an action on the motricity of the tongue, the spoken word. On this point there is the so called inversion of Man-yin to the Principle -yang. The spiritual mutation. It is also called the Gate of the tonsils. It is the second last Gate of the Tao, before one reaches Taoistic immortality.
Frank
Must be a beautifull spot to wake up everyday Rodaki.
Mike, Maremaria, bamboo, and all, we've all been on this journey I'm sure. Although time has passed and healed many wounds there are still some that linger. All the Hexagrams we've been studying have been talking to me....it's like I'm seeing my life experiences (old and new) unfolding. So much emotional, psychic and intellectual debris has been cast off as I've spiralled up the mountain. At the time, I realized my cup of life was too full.....collecting too many assumptions, judgements and feelings that limited my consciousness. As I moved up, the cup emptied so that it would fill again with more useful things. Some stuff I knew needed work but I needed to understand more before I could let it go. We think we have to work on ourselves and do it all right now! We want it fixed immediately. But things have a way of falling in and out of alignment...and at some point we'll be able to go back to them later. And when we do, we'll know more too.
ravenstar
Janice:It seems to me that this Hex is focussing on 'feeling' our bodily sensations. Right now we are labeling the different parts of the body to understand the area of focus, but in certain meditations we are meant to experience the feelings and sensations of each part. ...
I believe that it's not a metaphor, when you say «flower» as a metaphor of beauty you are still saying «flower». When you say «stubborn» maybe you are meaning «hard to move». But if a text says «stubborn» you cannot translate it «keeping still».... As a matter of fact, "stillness" is a metaphorical extension of what it, in a minimalist sort of way, means...
It's no strange, GRS give the most accepted senses of characters at different classics, and the most accepted sense was told to Legge, Wilhelm or Blofeld by theirs informants. The sense of keeping still, do not move from the place you hace received.If you take a look in the Karlgren's GSR, 艮 means: "refractory, obstinate, resist.
How do you know that the eye belongs to the man? ... and why staring at me?The graph shows a man with a big staring eye." It isn't a man hanging or holding a big eye; it is a man staring--or glaring--at you and that stare is what emphasizes the eye. Many things can be made out of that staring image,...
Why a man glaring means that he refuses to move? Maybe he's commanding something, or he's looking attentive, or he's asking for help ...but It also reminds one of a camel or pack mule that refuses to move, hence, "stillness." Not just any stillness though, it is the kind of stillness that is purposeful; a meant stillness.
Might you post what is saying Sluesser? Out of the YI, I didn't find GEN neither in the Odes nor in Lau Zi, maybe it was a character not much used alone.Schuessler actually points to other characters for a definition:
...
Maybe you are mistaking associations with etymology. Maybe GEN was never explicitly used in the sense of WORSHIP or HONOR. There are multiple ways to get consensual associations following some accepted rules. And much associations can have been got by different people at different times. Not only chinese but other prehistorical and historical people associated the EYE with supervision, commandment and deity.I can find no way to associate gen4 with "action or movement," other than to see such meaning as associated with the "purposeful action of holding still or being obstinate." Furthermore, there is no possible way to associate gen4 with "honor," or "honoring anything," other than itself, and in obstinate resistance at that.
I owed to Brad the first chinese Yi that I read. Not always agree with him, but I use it. I go to look what he said.Bradford Hatcher did a superb job in find meaningful associations for the characters in the Yijing. So, I'm following those research steps by taking down the books from my bookcase but not besting his work.
Maybe the main use of GEN is as the name of H.52. But from where did the mountains came? Mountains are not immovable, remember the old story, mountains evolve, some incease, some decrease, all the mountains change. Even more, ancient chinese did not see mountains but as living beings per se and inhabitted by all sort of deities and ghosts. Ancient chinese worshiped mountains anr waters. contemporary primitive or nomadic people worship mountains. And like all deities mountains are not always calm.Now, nowhere is the character gen4, per se, associated with "mountains." It must be reminded that the "mountain" association is not with the name of the hexagram (or the trigram, for that matter) but with the actual imagery of the trigram. Names were attached post-fact; associated images came first. Whoever tagged the name gen4 to the trigram did it by, most likely, associating the "immovability" of mountains with that of someone that refuses to follow orders, is arrogant to the point of snubbing, etc., etc. It was an effort to anthropomorphize that image of a "mountain," not as a way to honor the "mountain" but by taking certain obvious attributes of the "mountain," not all of the flattering, and associating them with a man with special personality traits.
I believe that it's not a metaphor, when you say «flower» as a metaphor of beauty you are still saying «flower». When you say «stubborn» maybe you are meaning «hard to move». But if a text says «stubborn» you cannot translate it «keeping still».
Exactly! And that is because, if there is a language that cannot be properly transliterated (as in "XYZ-Chinese-character=this word-in-English) is Chinese, specially Classical Chinese. It must be interpreted contextually and then "translated" accordingly. What was transmitted to those translators was the contextually accepted meaning of the characters. You must strongly differentiate between "transliterating" and "translating." Translating a text is NOT creating a glossary with all the possible meanings of a character. Yes, glossaries are useful at the time of translating but they are not a translation.It's no strange, GRS give the most accepted senses of characters at different classics, and the most accepted sense was told to Legge, Wilhelm or Blofeld by theirs informants. The sense of keeping still, do not move from the place you hace received.
That's rhetorical...How do you know that the eye belongs to the man? ... and why staring at me?
You must first solve your rhetorical question, above, to answer this. I certainly understand the association but, seeing that you question the very basis of the visual metaphor, there's no way I can explain it to you.Why a man glaring means that he refuses to move? Maybe he's commanding something, or he's looking attentive, or he's asking for help ...
I did post what Schuessler says and the different characters. Take another look. And no, the character gen4 is not a common character and, when used alone--I repeat, alone--, it is usually associated with the Yijing. When used colloquially, it usually means something like:Might you post what is saying Sluesser? Out of the YI, I didn't find GEN neither in the Odes nor in Lau Zi, maybe it was a character not much used alone.
For a few years, I earned my keep as a translator, albeit not in Chinese, but as a translator, nevertheless. I know very well what the difference is between etymology, contextual meaning and proper interpretive renditions. Specially in translations, etymological meaning is one tool used to properly associate contextual meaning. "Worship" and "honor" are not part of the known--and for "known" I mean exactly that; let's not conjecture on other possibilities, imagined or otherwise--etymology of gen4, hence, no association with those words can, or should, be derived from it.Maybe you are mistaking associations with etymology. Maybe GEN was never explicitly used in the sense of WORSHIP or HONOR. There are multiple ways to get consensual associations following some accepted rules. And much associations can have been got by different people at different times. Not only chinese but other prehistorical and historical people associated the EYE with supervision, commandment and deity.
Perhaps you've only read his translation of the Yijing, but, when I actually printed his files, that make up a total of seven books, I came up with a total of almost a thousand pages... It really is a monumental work. The glossary is in the file "H-YiGloss.pdf." Look there. Even if anybody disagree with his final translation (always a work in progress, I understand) one has no choice but to truly respect the breadth and scope of his research.I owed to Brad the first chinese Yi that I read. Not always agree with him, but I use it. I go to look what he said.
I answered that in the other post. Gen is the name of H52 because it is the name of the doubled trigram that makes it, just like the name of every other hexagram with doubled trigrams is taken from the name of those trigrams. The "mountain" association comes from the imagery associated with the trigram known as the youngest son in the KWS. It doesn't come from the meaning of the character "Gen" in a direct way. The trigram name "Gen," as all the other trigram names, was assigned later, post-fact to the invention of the trigrams.Maybe the main use of GEN is as the name of H.52. But from where did the mountains came? Mountains are not immovable, remember the old story, mountains evolve, some incease, some decrease, all the mountains change. Even more, ancient chinese did not see mountains but as living beings per se and inhabitted by all sort of deities and ghosts. Ancient chinese worshiped mountains anr waters. contemporary primitive or nomadic people worship mountains. And like all deities mountains are not always calm.
Can't type anymore I'm shattered and my eyes have taken on a glazed, staring position from reading the last two posts from Luis and Charly. I'm so grateful I don't know too much about Chinese Etymology ...I have no choice other than not to comment.
Mike
Oh, please, don't mind us. We are just adding a healthy dose of "noise" to the "signal"...
Where does the idea come from that the eye is staring or glaring?
I think it could also be an observing eye that is alert, awake and aware. Not an eye that is sort of hypnotized or maybe hypnotizing.
Well, if it suits you, is OK, I guess. However, you'd still have to reconcile the image of gen4 with the most accepted meaning of the character: stubborn, obstinate, etc. The staring/glaring idea comes from that visualization of the 'eye' in gen4. Alertness, wakefulness and awareness, as possible visual metaphors derived from the image of gen4, do not reconcile with the above accepted meaning...
Hi Frank
I'm not sure I've got all this, but trying to move it into my sort of language. What comments?
52.5 - When we can resist the internal urgings of the ego and keep our thoughts and words in check we will be on the first rung of the next ladder we have to climb. Reflect on how you use your thoughts and words and this will quiet the incessant chatter. We only need to speak when we have something to say about something that isn't clear, isn't at peace within us. What we do say, if we listen carefully, will serve to increase our awareness of the stillness.
52.6 - The stillness is achieved and can be maintained. We accept the stillness inside us. The little i is able to connect with the BIG I. What goes on around you is seen in a totally different way.
Mike
I answered that in the other post. Gen is the name of H52 because it is the name of the doubled trigram that makes it, just like the name of every other hexagram with doubled trigrams is taken from the name of those trigrams. The "mountain" association comes from the imagery associated with the trigram known as the youngest son in the KWS. It doesn't come from the meaning of the character "Gen" in a direct way. The trigram name "Gen," as all the other trigram names, was assigned later, post-fact to the invention of the trigrams.
That's the thing ...
As for mountains being static or organic, I'm surprised at the observation. It isn't an "old story" that mountains evolve and change. Actually, it is a quite modern scientific observation. WithIn the context of the ancient Chinese, whom had a life span, with any luck, of about 50 years, a mountain is the most static thing they would ever know. Mountains evolve in the span of many thousands of years. One can live a whole life without seeing a single change in a mountain, other than, perhaps, the seasonal snow ...
I agree with the first part, but question the underlined. My understanding is that this is inconclusive at this time. Yes, no?
It's never made sense to me, that trigrams were a later development. It makes sense that certain things were added later, such as the family associations and such, but as fundamental elements of nature, they make the most sensible building blocks of the more loosely interpretable hexagrams. Of course I don't claim to know one way or the other.. just seems logical is all: 8 forms x 8 forms = 64 possibilities. Or, did they divide the infinite to the particulars?
Associations are psychological facts. When somebody makes an association, this association exists, no matters if accepted by all or by only one person. And the way for the association can be simple or complex but always exists.
I'm using not the only one canonical association accepted by the main tradition, but ways of associations widely applied by people, chinese or from another ethnicities. The multiplicity of viewpoints is what assures the multiplicity of meanings for each chinese word or character. Not only only ONE fixed meaning.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
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Phone/ Voicemail:
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