meng said:

The ancients had ancients, which we know nothing about.

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That's actually profoundly true and...truly profound (ahem) if we think about what has been lost and what we might regain in the future with a bit of luck. Those ancient-ancients very probably new a thing or two that would literally blow the roofs of our minds....

Topal

charly said:

Luis:

I understand that there is a possibility that the line advices «stop chatting, let your inner discourse have its order», something related with meditation, you ´re right.

But stillness is not the only way GEN can be translated. I believe that GEN can also promote ACTION, mainly religious action say WORSHIP, or maybe more general, HONOR, because the MAN of GEN is leaning in reverence, hanging from or also holding a BIG EYE, divinity, more precisely MOUNTAIN DIVINITY.

Click to expand...

Hola Charly,

No, "stillness" is not the only way that gen4 can be translated. As a matter of fact, "stillness" is a metaphorical extension of what it, in a minimalist sort of way, means. If you take a look in the Karlgren's GSR, 艮 means: "refractory, obstinate, resist. The graph shows a man with a big staring eye." It isn't a man hanging or holding a big eye; it is a man staring--or glaring--at you and that stare is what emphasizes the eye. Many things can be made out of that staring image, but It also reminds one of a camel or pack mule that refuses to move, hence, "stillness." Not just any stillness though, it is the kind of stillness that is purposeful; a meant stillness. Schuessler actually points to other characters for a definition:

• hen4, 恨, which means "To hate, quarrelsome,"
• hen3, 佷, which means "Disobedient, refractory, hate"
• yan3, 眼, which means "eye"
• xian4, 限, which means "obstacle, limit"
• yin2, 垠, which means "raised border, dike"

I can find no way to associate gen4 with "action or movement," other than to see such meaning as associated with the "purposeful action of holding still or being obstinate." Furthermore, there is no possible way to associate gen4 with "honor," or "honoring anything," other than itself, and in obstinate resistance at that.

Bradford Hatcher did a superb job in find meaningful associations for the characters in the Yijing. So, I'm following those research steps by taking down the books from my bookcase but not besting his work.

Now, nowhere is the character gen4, per se, associated with "mountains." It must be reminded that the "mountain" association is not with the name of the hexagram (or the trigram, for that matter) but with the actual imagery of the trigram. Names were attached post-fact; associated images came first. Whoever tagged the name gen4 to the trigram did it by, most likely, associating the "immovability" of mountains with that of someone that refuses to follow orders, is arrogant to the point of snubbing, etc., etc. It was an effort to anthropomorphize that image of a "mountain," not as a way to honor the "mountain" but by taking certain obvious attributes of the "mountain," not all of the flattering, and associating them with a man with special personality traits.

Un abrazo,

I had to catch up a lot of intersting posts.
First the 5th line, keeping his jaws still. so the idea of Gen, stillness or as Luis is writing "refractory, obstinate, resist. The graph shows a man with a big staring eye." Maybe when you cannot speak or understand the words than you have to look at the eyes of someone. The eyes as being the windows of the soul/spirit.

Here we have gone to the erea of the head. The jawbone - Fu 輔 has a referall to hexagram 27 Yi Jaws.
And the upper karma, the karma than can be lifted and controlled in 52 is also 27(When you make a nucleur hexagram of nucleur trigram thunder and upper trigram mountain you get 27).
The 5th line is very important for the future. Because it refers to the next hexagram 53. This line is the first act to come to motion again.

In the 6th line, the ruler of this hexagram is the stability on the top, this line is changing in 15. The phase of personal Earth, the outer trigram mountain(small Earth) is changing in trigram Earth(Big Earth). The Earth for all creatures.The inside stays personal here with trigram mountain but the outer world is connected with everyone now.
Here is the stability so strong that it is totally imbeded in the personality.


Frank

meng said:

Mountain of waves?

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yes , the wave-mountain
but also a human form underneath -28.6? 29? . .
actually this was the image that taught me how to 'read' images like your cloud-mountain photo and i thought it would be nice to have it here


:bows:
rodaki

mountains

oh and there is another mountain, this one 'holy', the mount Athos, a very imposing mountain (and the first thing I saw across the sea every morning for a year )
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/8742342

Mount Athos' area works a bit like a state within a state (like the Vatikan, but without being the centre of power), for more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos

In the context of Greek mythology Athos was the name of one of the Gigantes (Giants) that challenged the Greek gods during the Gigantomachia. Athos threw a massive rock against Poseidon which fell in the Aegean sea and became the Athonite Peninsula. According to another version of the story, Poseidon used the mountain to bury the defeated giant.

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but it's true, many mountains are places of worship, my mind goes to mount. Olympus but also all those images of sacrifice at the mountain in the Yi itself . .


:bows:
rodaki

frank_r said:

In the 6th line, the ruler of this hexagram is the stability on the top, this line is changing in 15. The phase of personal Earth, the outer trigram mountain(small Earth) is changing in trigram Earth(Big Earth). The Earth for all creatures.The inside stays personal here with trigram mountain but the outer world is connected with everyone now.
Here is the stabilty so strong that it is totally imbeded in the personality.


Frank

Click to expand...

That is an interesting comment Frank. The mountain integrates with the earth (whole)

Thanks Maria

Janice, it was a big trip till now what you were telling some posts ago. Thanks for your personal story.

But about your question with the 5th line of 52 and the meridians in the neck.
the link with the neck is done by the already named extra- ordinary meridian Yang Wei Mai- the doorkeeper/bodyguard. This meridian has points allmost on all the yang meridians - Bladder, Galbladder, Stomach, 3Warmer, Small intestine and Gouvernor. This extra ordinary meridian is linked with trigram Thunder.
This one also runs over the already named erea in the neck. And is going over the top of the head to the basis of the skull and is ending at the point Du Mo 15 that is used in acupuncture with problems with speaking or with stifness of the tongue. This point rules over communication by the spoken word.

At the same time there is this link with the other extra ordinary meridian Yin Wei Mai, who has a connection with trigram mountain. This Meridian the Courtlady rules over the big live changes like birth, puberty, menopause and death.
This meridian is ending in the point Conception vessel 23, this is a little above the Adams Apple.
The name of this point is Lian Quan translated as pure/honest well/source.
This point is also used with tongue stiffnes. And has a connection with the source of all energies(the first chakra). And also with the heart and kidneys on the deepest level.
This point mobilises yin energy to the throat and head. It has an action on the motricity of the tongue, the spoken word. On this point there is the so called inversion of Man-yin to the Principle -yang. The spiritual mutation. It is also called the Gate of the tonsils. It is the second last Gate of the Tao, before one reaches Taoistic immortality.

Frank

Must be a beautifull spot to wake up everyday Rodaki.

frank_r said:

Must be a beautifull spot to wake up everyday Rodaki.

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yes it was . . not very easy to live though . . it was one of those places that are teeming with life during summer but go back to a kind of secluded life during winter . . long, deserted winter beaches and most people being fishermen, going off to fish in the north aegean, coming back every full moon when fish don't bite . . Locals knew to read the weather by looking at the clouds around Athos' summit . .
Lot's of mystique in that mountain, especially for those of us who will never be able to visit it -unfortunately lots of corruption also, the results of gathering too much power and wealth in the hands of a few . .
Allow me a last comment about mountains and their energy . .
In the island Samothrace, the mountain Moon, with waters constantly cascading down its slopes, is still known as "the Sanctuary of the Great Gods" . . the landscape still feels enchanted by ancient rituals and carries a very strong, almost eerie sense of energy issuing from its rocks . .

for more
http://www.xanga.com/Longobardese/675206020/98-an-aside-tocharian--china--iran-recent-archeology/ (towards the end of the page for Samothrace and the rituals worshipping gods and goddesses)
http://www.balkantravellers.com/en/read/article/113


:bows:
rodaki

rodaki said:

Allow me a last comment about mountains and their energy . .
In the island Samothrace, the mountain Moon, with waters constantly cascading down its slopes, is still known as "the Sanctuary of the Great Gods" . . the landscape still feels enchanted by ancient rituals and carries a very strong, almost eerie sense of energy issuing from its rocks . .

for more
http://www.xanga.com/Longobardese/675206020/98-an-aside-tocharian--china--iran-recent-archeology/ (towards the end of the page for Samothrace and the rituals worshipping gods and goddesses)
http://www.balkantravellers.com/en/read/article/113


:bows:
rodaki

Click to expand...

Yes, this is true. I have never been (...yet) in samothrace, but some friends have. As they have said to me, you can feel that "special energy" spread everywhere.

hi Maria,
Samothraki is definitely one of the places to visit
but be prepared if you're going free camping in the mountains . . it can get a bit creepy at night
still it's worth it though

Dora

rodaki said:

hi Maria,
Samothraki is definitely one of the places to visit
but be prepared if you're going free camping in the mountains . . it can get a bit creepy at night
still it's worth it though

Dora

Click to expand...

It's a must to , free camping at Samothrace, Dora. At least this is what i have been told, and from pictures I can understand why

frank_r said:

I had to catch up a lot of intersting posts.
First the 5th line, keeping his jaws still. so the idea of Gen, stillness or as Luis is writing "refractory, obstinate, resist. The graph shows a man with a big staring eye." Maybe when you cannot speak or understand the words than you have to look at the eyes of someone. The eyes as being the windows of the soul/spirit.

Here we have gone to the erea of the head. The jawbone - Fu 輔 has a referall to hexagram 27 Yi Jaws.
And the upper karma, the karma than can be lifted and controlled in 52 is also 27(When you make a nucleur hexagram of nucleur trigram thunder and upper trigram mountain you get 27).
The 5th line is very important for the future. Because it refers to the next hexagram 53. This line is the first act to come to motion again.

In the 6th line, the ruler of this hexagram is the stability on the top, this line is changing in 15. The phase of personal Earth, the outer trigram mountain(small Earth) is changing in trigram Earth(Big Earth). The Earth for all creatures.The inside stays personal here with trigram mountain but the outer world is connected with everyone now.
Here is the stability so strong that it is totally imbeded in the personality.


Frank

Click to expand...

Hi Frank
I'm not sure I've got all this, but trying to move it into my sort of language. What comments?

52.5 - When we can resist the internal urgings of the ego and keep our thoughts and words in check we will be on the first rung of the next ladder we have to climb. Reflect on how you use your thoughts and words and this will quiet the incessant chatter. We only need to speak when we have something to say about something that isn't clear, isn't at peace within us. What we do say, if we listen carefully, will serve to increase our awareness of the stillness.

52.6 - The stillness is achieved and can be maintained. We accept the stillness inside us. The little i is able to connect with the BIG I. What goes on around you is seen in a totally different way.

Janice - I really felt that your experiences you shared a few posts back have given you a great insight into 52. The journey of 52 indeed looks to be a double edged sword. Thank you for sharing.

Mike

frank_r said:

Thanks Maria

Janice, it was a big trip till now what you were telling some posts ago. Thanks for your personal story.

But about your question with the 5th line of 52 and the meridians in the neck.
the link with the neck is done by the already named extra- ordinary meridian Yang Wei Mai- the doorkeeper/bodyguard. This meridian has points allmost on all the yang meridians - Bladder, Galbladder, Stomach, 3Warmer, Small intestine and Gouvernor. This extra ordinary meridian is linked with trigram Thunder.
This one also runs over the already named erea in the neck. And is going over the top of the head to the basis of the skull and is ending at the point Du Mo 15 that is used in acupuncture with problems with speaking or with stifness of the tongue. This point rules over communication by the spoken word.

At the same time there is this link with the other extra ordinary meridian Yin Wei Mai, who has a connection with trigram mountain. This Meridian the Courtlady rules over the big live changes like birth, puberty, menopause and death.
This meridian is ending in the point Conception vessel 23, this is a little above the Adams Apple.
The name of this point is Lian Quan translated as pure/honest well/source.
This point is also used with tongue stiffnes. And has a connection with the source of all energies(the first chakra). And also with the heart and kidneys on the deepest level.
This point mobilises yin energy to the throat and head. It has an action on the motricity of the tongue, the spoken word. On this point there is the so called inversion of Man-yin to the Principle -yang. The spiritual mutation. It is also called the Gate of the tonsils. It is the second last Gate of the Tao, before one reaches Taoistic immortality.

Frank

Must be a beautifull spot to wake up everyday Rodaki.

Click to expand...

Hi Frank.

Thank you for going into great length to describe the 5th line. This is fascinating and something I would like to study deeper. These extra ordinary meridians are 'talking' to me and I'm sure many others too. The tonsils can swell up so much we find it hard to swallow? Many in the 50's and 60's had theirs taken out. It seems that now we're learning to deal with uncomfortable feelings by sharing and expressing them with others.

Mike, Maremaria, bamboo, and all, we've all been on this journey I'm sure. Although time has passed and healed many wounds there are still some that linger. All the Hexagrams we've been studying have been talking to me....it's like I'm seeing my life experiences (old and new) unfolding. So much emotional, psychic and intellectual debris has been cast off as I've spiralled up the mountain. At the time, I realized my cup of life was too full.....collecting too many assumptions, judgements and feelings that limited my consciousness. As I moved up, the cup emptied so that it would fill again with more useful things. Some stuff I knew needed work but I needed to understand more before I could let it go. We think we have to work on ourselves and do it all right now! We want it fixed immediately. But things have a way of falling in and out of alignment...and at some point we'll be able to go back to them later. And when we do, we'll know more too.

I think I also know of what was talked about earlier.....repetition....was it meng? It seemed that what was initially dark, ......meditation eventually filled with light and color. Sometimes I just lay on the bed and between wake and sleep, quick impressions slid into my mind and out....moving too quickly for me to focus on any one in particular....they were like images in a dream. Some zoomed towards my eyes shifting rapidly from one to the other.....some kept repeating themselves.....I wondered why? And then they went through my mind again in the same order and I understood. They were giving me a choice, a destination....where did I want to go? I had an idea but wasn't certain how to do it. Each time I was in the sleep/wake mode, they flashed again, but faster.......as if asking me to latch onto an image, grag hold and cling to it with my mind. It was very hard to do at first....concentration was the key to stop the spinning chaos.....then sorting through all the possibilities, I selected.

This takes us to the head position and the pictures you see below. One is the outline of the head meridians in color,the other the meridian points. It is the part of us that meets and greets the world. We may try to hide our feelings, emotions from others but all of these can be seen by our expressions, our muscles, and skin eruptions. It is said we have two faces, one we show to the world and the other we keep for ourself.

The gallbladder meridian and stomach has been one that frequents many patients. Many have a build up of excess energy and tension. This causes migraines in some (too much time in the head)....and a lot of time the culprit is the gallbladder meridian which seems to double back on itself several times in this region!

Frank, which points do you work on to relieve tension, pain and congestion? I know that these face points work on a subtle energy reather than a physical one....for instance the bladder point near the eye doesn't affect the bladder, though it does have a subtle effect on the Chi of the Water element.

The eyes as you have said Frank are the windows of the soul. The window or 'third eye' is where I believe the flame of our spirit shines. Insight, new perceptions and understanding has been said to be the highest level of intuition. It is in this area we are able to 'see' beyond the boundaries of 'time' and space. In Sanskirt the 6th chakra is called "Ajna" or 'command'. Working with this chakra we are able to gain a greater spiritual command of our lives.






ravenstar

ravenstar said:

Mike, Maremaria, bamboo, and all, we've all been on this journey I'm sure. Although time has passed and healed many wounds there are still some that linger. All the Hexagrams we've been studying have been talking to me....it's like I'm seeing my life experiences (old and new) unfolding. So much emotional, psychic and intellectual debris has been cast off as I've spiralled up the mountain. At the time, I realized my cup of life was too full.....collecting too many assumptions, judgements and feelings that limited my consciousness. As I moved up, the cup emptied so that it would fill again with more useful things. Some stuff I knew needed work but I needed to understand more before I could let it go. We think we have to work on ourselves and do it all right now! We want it fixed immediately. But things have a way of falling in and out of alignment...and at some point we'll be able to go back to them later. And when we do, we'll know more too.

ravenstar

Click to expand...

Smiling...

ravenstar said:

It seems to me that this Hex is focussing on 'feeling' our bodily sensations. Right now we are labeling the different parts of the body to understand the area of focus, but in certain meditations we are meant to experience the feelings and sensations of each part. ...

Click to expand...

Janice:

I believe that your point give the exact balance between the passiveness of STILLING and the activeness of MOVING. GEN might be translated as FEEL, feel your toe, feel your calf... something close to LOOK, look at your toe, look at your calf... but combining OBSERVATION and EMOTION.

This is compatible with the etymology of GEN, the man with the BIG EYE.

And at the end «be tolerant with yourself, nobody's perfect».

Best regards,

Charly

sparhawk said:

... As a matter of fact, "stillness" is a metaphorical extension of what it, in a minimalist sort of way, means...

Click to expand...

I believe that it's not a metaphor, when you say «flower» as a metaphor of beauty you are still saying «flower». When you say «stubborn» maybe you are meaning «hard to move». But if a text says «stubborn» you cannot translate it «keeping still».

If you take a look in the Karlgren's GSR, 艮 means: "refractory, obstinate, resist.

Click to expand...

It's no strange, GRS give the most accepted senses of characters at different classics, and the most accepted sense was told to Legge, Wilhelm or Blofeld by theirs informants. The sense of keeping still, do not move from the place you hace received.

The graph shows a man with a big staring eye." It isn't a man hanging or holding a big eye; it is a man staring--or glaring--at you and that stare is what emphasizes the eye. Many things can be made out of that staring image,...

Click to expand...

How do you know that the eye belongs to the man? ... and why staring at me?

but It also reminds one of a camel or pack mule that refuses to move, hence, "stillness." Not just any stillness though, it is the kind of stillness that is purposeful; a meant stillness.

Click to expand...

Why a man glaring means that he refuses to move? Maybe he's commanding something, or he's looking attentive, or he's asking for help ...

Schuessler actually points to other characters for a definition:
...

Click to expand...

Might you post what is saying Sluesser? Out of the YI, I didn't find GEN neither in the Odes nor in Lau Zi, maybe it was a character not much used alone.

I can find no way to associate gen4 with "action or movement," other than to see such meaning as associated with the "purposeful action of holding still or being obstinate." Furthermore, there is no possible way to associate gen4 with "honor," or "honoring anything," other than itself, and in obstinate resistance at that.

Click to expand...

Maybe you are mistaking associations with etymology. Maybe GEN was never explicitly used in the sense of WORSHIP or HONOR. There are multiple ways to get consensual associations following some accepted rules. And much associations can have been got by different people at different times. Not only chinese but other prehistorical and historical people associated the EYE with supervision, commandment and deity.

Bradford Hatcher did a superb job in find meaningful associations for the characters in the Yijing. So, I'm following those research steps by taking down the books from my bookcase but not besting his work.

Click to expand...

I owed to Brad the first chinese Yi that I read. Not always agree with him, but I use it. I go to look what he said.

Now, nowhere is the character gen4, per se, associated with "mountains." It must be reminded that the "mountain" association is not with the name of the hexagram (or the trigram, for that matter) but with the actual imagery of the trigram. Names were attached post-fact; associated images came first. Whoever tagged the name gen4 to the trigram did it by, most likely, associating the "immovability" of mountains with that of someone that refuses to follow orders, is arrogant to the point of snubbing, etc., etc. It was an effort to anthropomorphize that image of a "mountain," not as a way to honor the "mountain" but by taking certain obvious attributes of the "mountain," not all of the flattering, and associating them with a man with special personality traits.

Click to expand...

Maybe the main use of GEN is as the name of H.52. But from where did the mountains came? Mountains are not immovable, remember the old story, mountains evolve, some incease, some decrease, all the mountains change. Even more, ancient chinese did not see mountains but as living beings per se and inhabitted by all sort of deities and ghosts. Ancient chinese worshiped mountains anr waters. contemporary primitive or nomadic people worship mountains. And like all deities mountains are not always calm.

Maybe the glaring guy is but a mountain. What if a Ciclope?

Un abrazo,

Charly

charly said:

I believe that it's not a metaphor, when you say «flower» as a metaphor of beauty you are still saying «flower». When you say «stubborn» maybe you are meaning «hard to move». But if a text says «stubborn» you cannot translate it «keeping still».

Click to expand...

That's the thing, Chinese, by its own nature, is a metaphorical language. In alphabetic languages, such as ours, we can have specific words for meaning. As a test, if you go to YellowBridge and type the word "stubborn" in English, the site will give you two pages with different Chinese characters combinations that all, in one way or the other, mean "stubborn." In English we only have "stubborn," and, if you look for the word in a thesaurus, you only get "obstinate" as an alternate word. That is to say, that Chinese can convey the same meaning with different words and combination of characters. Hence that we must "read" the characters as metaphors and not as fixed words, specially when it comes to ancient texts.

It's no strange, GRS give the most accepted senses of characters at different classics, and the most accepted sense was told to Legge, Wilhelm or Blofeld by theirs informants. The sense of keeping still, do not move from the place you hace received.

Click to expand...

Exactly! And that is because, if there is a language that cannot be properly transliterated (as in "XYZ-Chinese-character=this word-in-English) is Chinese, specially Classical Chinese. It must be interpreted contextually and then "translated" accordingly. What was transmitted to those translators was the contextually accepted meaning of the characters. You must strongly differentiate between "transliterating" and "translating." Translating a text is NOT creating a glossary with all the possible meanings of a character. Yes, glossaries are useful at the time of translating but they are not a translation.

How do you know that the eye belongs to the man? ... and why staring at me?

Click to expand...

That's rhetorical...

Why a man glaring means that he refuses to move? Maybe he's commanding something, or he's looking attentive, or he's asking for help ...

Click to expand...

You must first solve your rhetorical question, above, to answer this. I certainly understand the association but, seeing that you question the very basis of the visual metaphor, there's no way I can explain it to you.

Might you post what is saying Sluesser? Out of the YI, I didn't find GEN neither in the Odes nor in Lau Zi, maybe it was a character not much used alone.

Click to expand...

I did post what Schuessler says and the different characters. Take another look. And no, the character gen4 is not a common character and, when used alone--I repeat, alone--, it is usually associated with the Yijing. When used colloquially, it usually means something like:

• He put it too 艮 (sharply)
• That fellow is really 艮 (blunt)

Maybe you are mistaking associations with etymology. Maybe GEN was never explicitly used in the sense of WORSHIP or HONOR. There are multiple ways to get consensual associations following some accepted rules. And much associations can have been got by different people at different times. Not only chinese but other prehistorical and historical people associated the EYE with supervision, commandment and deity.

Click to expand...

For a few years, I earned my keep as a translator, albeit not in Chinese, but as a translator, nevertheless. I know very well what the difference is between etymology, contextual meaning and proper interpretive renditions. Specially in translations, etymological meaning is one tool used to properly associate contextual meaning. "Worship" and "honor" are not part of the known--and for "known" I mean exactly that; let's not conjecture on other possibilities, imagined or otherwise--etymology of gen4, hence, no association with those words can, or should, be derived from it.

I owed to Brad the first chinese Yi that I read. Not always agree with him, but I use it. I go to look what he said.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you've only read his translation of the Yijing, but, when I actually printed his files, that make up a total of seven books, I came up with a total of almost a thousand pages... It really is a monumental work. The glossary is in the file "H-YiGloss.pdf." Look there. Even if anybody disagree with his final translation (always a work in progress, I understand) one has no choice but to truly respect the breadth and scope of his research.

Maybe the main use of GEN is as the name of H.52. But from where did the mountains came? Mountains are not immovable, remember the old story, mountains evolve, some incease, some decrease, all the mountains change. Even more, ancient chinese did not see mountains but as living beings per se and inhabitted by all sort of deities and ghosts. Ancient chinese worshiped mountains anr waters. contemporary primitive or nomadic people worship mountains. And like all deities mountains are not always calm.

Click to expand...

I answered that in the other post. Gen is the name of H52 because it is the name of the doubled trigram that makes it, just like the name of every other hexagram with doubled trigrams is taken from the name of those trigrams. The "mountain" association comes from the imagery associated with the trigram known as the youngest son in the KWS. It doesn't come from the meaning of the character "Gen" in a direct way. The trigram name "Gen," as all the other trigram names, was assigned later, post-fact to the invention of the trigrams.

As for mountains being static or organic, I'm surprised at the observation. It isn't an "old story" that mountains evolve and change. Actually, it is a quite modern scientific observation. WithIn the context of the ancient Chinese, whom had a life span, with any luck, of about 50 years, a mountain is the most static thing they would ever know. Mountains evolve in the span of many thousands of years. One can live a whole life without seeing a single change in a mountain, other than, perhaps, the seasonal snow...

Un abrazo,

There is so much to take in here,guys...til then, the eyes on stupas makes me think of eyes in 52, does it make sense?

Originally Posted by ravenstar
It seems to me that this Hex is focussing on 'feeling' our bodily sensations. Right now we are labeling the different parts of the body to understand the area of focus, but in certain meditations we are meant to experience the feelings and sensations of each part. ...

Click to expand...

Would this be the same as increasing our concentration and mindfulness?


One thought on staring eyes. I was watching a TV program last night and it was talking about One of the symptoms of shell shock (post traumatic stress) shown by the soldiers in the first world war was something that I think was called the "thousand mile stare" - just gazing intently into the distance, no focus. Any help here?

Can't type anymore I'm shattered and my eyes have taken on a glazed, staring position from reading the last two posts from Luis and Charly. I'm so grateful I don't know too much about Chinese Etymology ...I have no choice other than not to comment.

Mike

my_key said:

Can't type anymore I'm shattered and my eyes have taken on a glazed, staring position from reading the last two posts from Luis and Charly. I'm so grateful I don't know too much about Chinese Etymology ...I have no choice other than not to comment.

Mike

Click to expand...

Oh, please, don't mind us. We are just adding a healthy dose of "noise" to the "signal"...

sparhawk said:

Oh, please, don't mind us. We are just adding a healthy dose of "noise" to the "signal"...

Click to expand...

Wasn't 'noise' to me, best bit of the thread IMO, especially your last post to Charly. Its important to remind us how differently Chinese works, we obviously focus far too much on single word meanings, where as you say, one word in chinese can mean loads of things according to context.

Where does the idea come from that the eye is staring or glaring?
I think it could also be an observing eye that is alert, awake and aware. Not an eye that is sort of hypnotized or maybe hypnotizing.

Doesn't that make more sense in the context of hexagram 52, the mountains as silent witnesses that see generations come and go?

martin said:

Where does the idea come from that the eye is staring or glaring?
I think it could also be an observing eye that is alert, awake and aware. Not an eye that is sort of hypnotized or maybe hypnotizing.

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Well, if it suits you, is OK, I guess. However, you'd still have to reconcile the image of gen4 with the most accepted meaning of the character: stubborn, obstinate, etc. The staring/glaring idea comes from that visualization of the 'eye' in gen4. Alertness, wakefulness and awareness, as possible visual metaphors derived from the image of gen4, do not reconcile with the above accepted meaning...

sparhawk said:

Well, if it suits you, is OK, I guess. However, you'd still have to reconcile the image of gen4 with the most accepted meaning of the character: stubborn, obstinate, etc. The staring/glaring idea comes from that visualization of the 'eye' in gen4. Alertness, wakefulness and awareness, as possible visual metaphors derived from the image of gen4, do not reconcile with the above accepted meaning...

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Well, the text says that he does _not_ see the people in his courtyard. That could mean that he is indeed staring, gaze turned inward, perhaps observing his thoughts, feelings and body sensations, but not his environment ..

Hmm, the longer I stare at this hexagram the less I know what it is supposed to mean.

my_key said:

Hi Frank
I'm not sure I've got all this, but trying to move it into my sort of language. What comments?

52.5 - When we can resist the internal urgings of the ego and keep our thoughts and words in check we will be on the first rung of the next ladder we have to climb. Reflect on how you use your thoughts and words and this will quiet the incessant chatter. We only need to speak when we have something to say about something that isn't clear, isn't at peace within us. What we do say, if we listen carefully, will serve to increase our awareness of the stillness.

52.6 - The stillness is achieved and can be maintained. We accept the stillness inside us. The little i is able to connect with the BIG I. What goes on around you is seen in a totally different way.

Mike

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Hallo Mike,

52.6 is pretty obvious at least for me. This is also exactly what you are writing here.

But the fifth line of 52 is more complicated, here there is a changing from mountain to wind,so there will be a change, the personal perspective comes into motion(wind) but this without speaking(there is no moving of the jaws). Maybe this is the part of the eyes. The eyes are the senses that are the closest to Heaven, the most sensible senses(connected with the heart) we have. The eyes as being part of mind are speaking like the eyes of the Stupa in the picture of Hollis. Here is is a sort of contemplation of the situation as Martin was writing.

Line six is realy spiritual there are no Earthly, no personal senses anymore. This is all Spirit. 52 is in numerology 1(1+2+3+4+5...= 1378=10=1) As being (on) the top of the mountain. This is the line that has the connection with One. This is also the line of the Ruler of the hexagram. Was in 51 the 1st line the ruler here it is the 6th line. Now you have the view of the whole situation. A little bit like 20, what is a sort of a doubling of 52.

Frank

sparhawk said:

I answered that in the other post. Gen is the name of H52 because it is the name of the doubled trigram that makes it, just like the name of every other hexagram with doubled trigrams is taken from the name of those trigrams. The "mountain" association comes from the imagery associated with the trigram known as the youngest son in the KWS. It doesn't come from the meaning of the character "Gen" in a direct way. The trigram name "Gen," as all the other trigram names, was assigned later, post-fact to the invention of the trigrams.

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I agree with the first part, but question the underlined. My understanding is that this is inconclusive at this time. Yes, no?

It's never made sense to me, that trigrams were a later development. It makes sense that certain things were added later, such as the family associations and such, but as fundamental elements of nature, they make the most sensible building blocks of the more loosely interpretable hexagrams. Of course I don't claim to know one way or the other.. just seems logical is all: 8 forms x 8 forms = 64 possibilities. Or, did they divide the infinite to the particulars?

sparhawk said:

That's the thing ...

As for mountains being static or organic, I'm surprised at the observation. It isn't an "old story" that mountains evolve and change. Actually, it is a quite modern scientific observation. WithIn the context of the ancient Chinese, whom had a life span, with any luck, of about 50 years, a mountain is the most static thing they would ever know. Mountains evolve in the span of many thousands of years. One can live a whole life without seeing a single change in a mountain, other than, perhaps, the seasonal snow ...

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Luis:

When people refuses to hear our reasons is called STUBBORN / OBSTINATE, when people refuses to move but we agree with that position is called FIRM / PERSEVERANT.

If the sense of a character is uncertain because of lack of documentationr or infrequent use, you propose to translate it accordingly with the most accepted association.

But can nobody use any association out of the traditional ?

Associations are psychological facts. When somebody makes an association, this association exists, no matters if accepted by all or by only one person. And the way for the association can be simple or complex but always exists.

I'm using not the only one canonical association accepted by the main tradition, but ways of associations widely applied by people, chinese or from another ethnicities. The multiplicity of viewpoints is what assures the multiplicity of meanings for each chinese word or character. Not only only ONE fixed meaning.

A BIG EYE sometimes means TO OBSERVE o TO MEET WITH, sometimes means a MINISTER or a SERVANT, sometimes means another things.

Say you use the word / character for MINISTER. Chinese people that read it can understand MINISTER or SERVANT accordingly with the context, but also, accordingly with the own experience, social stereotypes, etc., can made different associations such as HONEST, POWERFUL, UPRIGHT, LOYAL, DISHONEST, WEAK, VORACIOUS, DISLOYAL, BROW NOSE ... Indeed much more associations than standarized explicit meanings.

People can read XX and understand MINISTER, then associate say STRONG MAN, but if reading the same XX character they understand SERVAN, maybe they associate WEAK MAIDEN. Some associations can be personal but another are widely shared in communities.

And traveling a mountain I passed by a firm way and the following day this way didn't exist anymore. The foot of the mountain had collapsed during the night because of the heavy rains.

Some processes run slowly, but another run fast. Mountains change from the morning to the night, because the light change, the vegetal landscape change for rain or lack of rain, sometimes vegetation can run more quickly than government assistance, like the beans of the Odes. Animals can migrate, have a different conduct in different stations, can prevail adults or youngs, it can be abundance of hunting or lack of it. To perceive it or not depends upon our own ability and disposition.

And all, earth, rocks, vegetation, animals, human buildings, form part of the whole living mountain. A book from diviners and for diviners must root in ANIMISM, all things have its own SOUL, mountains included. All the long the human history and prehistory there were people revering mountain gods.

Let the mountains be. To call STUBBORN a mountain is to apply the BULLDOZERS LOGIC.

Un abrazo,

Charly

meng said:

I agree with the first part, but question the underlined. My understanding is that this is inconclusive at this time. Yes, no?

It's never made sense to me, that trigrams were a later development. It makes sense that certain things were added later, such as the family associations and such, but as fundamental elements of nature, they make the most sensible building blocks of the more loosely interpretable hexagrams. Of course I don't claim to know one way or the other.. just seems logical is all: 8 forms x 8 forms = 64 possibilities. Or, did they divide the infinite to the particulars?

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I agree with you. Yes, the chicken/egg matter of "trigrams first/hexagrams second," and VV, is still inconclusive. The logical part of my brain also tells me that, as things are built, they start at the bottom, that is, with the simplest components first. In this case, other than the Yin/Yang lines by themselves and the Four Powers (the bigrams), the simplest components are the trigrams. I seriously doubt that someone came up, by chance, with a whole set of 64 hexagrams and then derived the trigrams from them. That one can argue about the history of Trigram Circles and sequences, and how they are relevant to the Yijing we know today, is irrelevant to the issue of the actual invention of the trigrams by themselves. For this reason, I believe that, not only the trigrams were invented before, or concurrently with the hexagrams, but that, for the reason that symbols come first and taxonomy second, that the names and associated attributes were assigned later; perhaps much later at that.

charly said:

Associations are psychological facts. When somebody makes an association, this association exists, no matters if accepted by all or by only one person. And the way for the association can be simple or complex but always exists.

I'm using not the only one canonical association accepted by the main tradition, but ways of associations widely applied by people, chinese or from another ethnicities. The multiplicity of viewpoints is what assures the multiplicity of meanings for each chinese word or character. Not only only ONE fixed meaning.

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Charly,

I understand what you are doing and I think is creative. However, some boundaries must be placed when it comes to metaphorical meanings associated with Chinese characters. They are not Rorschach inkblots... Those are, to a certain extent, the trigrams and hexagrams.

Un abrazo,