52. Ken / Keeping Still, Mountain

ravenstar · Feb 12, 2009

charly said:
Janice:

It seems to me [Janice] that this Hex is focussing on 'feeling' our bodily sensations. Right now we are labeling the different parts of the body to understand the area of focus, but in certain meditations we are meant to experience the feelings and sensations of each part. ...

Click to expand...

I believe that your point give the exact balance between the passiveness of STILLING and the activeness of MOVING. GEN might be translated as FEEL, feel your toe, feel your calf... something close to LOOK, look at your toe, look at your calf... but combining OBSERVATION and EMOTION.

This is compatible with the etymology of GEN, the man with the BIG EYE.

And at the end «be tolerant with yourself, nobody's perfect».

Best regards,

Charly

Charly, I agree. In some meditations to get the physical body to relax, a person sits or lies down comfortably and starts with their toes and gradually works their way through all the muscle groups of the body, first tensing them and then relaxing them. At each stage of the way, you take a deep breath, let it out, and then tense each muscle area, holding for the beat of a breath, then releasing the tension on the out-breath. After you progress from your toes to your head then you reverse the procedure and tense and relax from your head to your toes. This is known as 'progressive relaxation.

Not only are you releasing tension in each area of the body, but also unwanted emotions,as well as ongoing chatter and thoughts running through your mind.

To climb the mountain in a meditation, we need to lighten our load, physically, mentally, emotinally and spiritually. Each time we rest, we trust our intuitive voice (this is discovered with a moment of silence for each body area) of what we must leave behind. As we reach the top, we experience an inner shift.....opening the mind's eye. .

Originally posted by my_key - Would this be the same as increasing our concentration and mindfulness?

One thought on staring eyes. I was watching a TV program last night and it was talking about One of the symptoms of shell shock (post traumatic stress) shown by the soldiers in the first world war was something that I think was called the "thousand mile stare" - just gazing intently into the distance, no focus. Any help here?

Yes I believe it does increase concentration and mindfulness my_key.

Visualization is the ability to hold an image in the mind. It is about developing the natural skills of relaxing, concentrationg and seeing. When a person consciously visualizes they are gaining the ability to hold their mind on one object, to concentrate. This one-pointedness of mind helps us to go beyond the boundaries and limitations of the physical body. The image we hold is the only thing in our awareness.....this causes our awareness to become multifaceted...open to all its potentialities. We no longer see the image in terms of categories or labels, functions or expectations as I believe sparhawk was talking about. We see the image for itself and not as it relates to you and me. We are aware of the whole and all its parts, the inside and outside.....time and space disappear....at some point there is no separation between us the image.....it is a pure experience of our psychic awareness.

As far as post traumatic stress, shell shock could be when a persons body and mind is completely numb to outside and inside stimuli. Paralyzed in fear, their feelings, their senses have shut down cutting them off to the world around them.

If you could actually see the etheric threads surrounding a person as this, the threads would be gray in color. No colors could be seen as colors are activated through the body's cells and then through the chakras and the aura. The autonomic system of the body works without our knowledge....it's what's keeping them alive at the moment.

ravenstar

ravenstar · Feb 12, 2009

Oh and by the way, I checked my favorite thesaurus site out and it had all these words to describe 'stubborn.

http://www.dictionaryofwords.com/search.php?q=stubborn&rad=YM&x=25&y=6

189 moby thesaurus words for "stubborn":
adamant, adamantine, adherent, adhesive, assiduous, balking, balky,
bigoted, bulldogged, bulldoggish, bulldoggy, bulletheaded,
bullheaded, cantankerous, cartilaginous, case-hardened, chewy,
clingy, cohesive, constant, continuing, contumacious, coriaceous,
determined, diligent, dogged, dogmatic, dour, durable, enduring,
faithful, fanatic, fibrous, firm, fundamentalist, gluey, glutinous,
gristly, gummy, hard, hardheaded, hardy, headstrong, hidebound,
immovable, immutable, impliable, inalterable, indefatigable,
indomitable, inductile, industrious, inelastic, inexorable,
inextensible, inextensile, inextensional, inflexible, insistent,
insubordinate, intolerant, intractable, intractile, intransigent,
invincible, iron, ironbound, ironclad, ironhanded, irresilient,
lasting, leatherlike, leathery, loyal, mulish, muscle-bound,
never-tiring, nonelastic, nonstretchable, obdurate, obstinate,
opinionated, ornery, orthodox, overzealous, patient,
patient as job, permanent, perseverant, persevering, persistent,
persisting, pertinacious, pigheaded, plodding, plugging,
preoccupied, procrustean, purist, puristic, puritan, puritanic,
rapt, rebellious, recalcitrant, refractory, relentless, resistant,
resolute, restive, rigid, rigorist, rigoristic, rigorous,
rockbound, ropy, sedulous, self-adhesive, self-willed, set, sinewy,
single-minded, sleepless, slogging, stable, steadfast, steady,
stickable, sticky, stiff, stiff-necked, straightlaced, straitlaced,
stringy, strong, strong-willed, strongheaded, stunt, sulky, sullen,
tacky, tenacious, tireless, tough, tough as leather, unabating,
unalterable, unbending, uncompromising, unconquerable,
uncooperative, undaunted, undiscouraged, undrooping, unextendible,
unextensible, unfailing, unfaltering, unflagging, unflexible,
unflinching, ungiving, unintermitting, uninterrupted, unlimber,
unmalleable, unnodding, unpliable, unpliant, unregenerate,
unrelaxing, unrelenting, unremitting, unsleeping, unswerving,
untiring, untractable, unwavering, unwearied, unwearying,
unwinking, unyielding, utterly attentive, vigorous, viscid,
wayward, weariless, willful, wiry

ravenstar

meng · Feb 12, 2009

sparhawk said:
I agree with you. Yes, the chicken/egg matter of "trigrams first/hexagrams second," and VV, is still inconclusive. The logical part of my brain also tells me that, as things are built, they start at the bottom, that is, with the simplest components first. In this case, other than the Yin/Yang lines by themselves and the Four Powers (the bigrams), the simplest components are the trigrams. I seriously doubt that someone came up, by chance, with a whole set of 64 hexagrams and then derived the trigrams from them. That one can argue about the history of Trigram Circles and sequences, and how they are relevant to the Yijing we know today, is irrelevant to the issue of the actual invention of the trigrams by themselves. For this reason, I believe that, not only the trigrams were invented before, or concurrently with the hexagrams, but that, for the reason that symbols come first and taxonomy second, that the names and associated attributes were assigned later; perhaps much later at that.

This presents an interesting look at the difference between Darwinism and Creationism. Do things evolve toward God, or are all things originated by God? The idea of parting out infinity seems pretty impossible to me. The idea of letting nature duke it out, and see what adds up, seems more plausible. But what do I know?

Sparhawk · Feb 12, 2009

ravenstar said:
Oh and by the way, I checked my favorite thesaurus site out and it had all these words to describe 'stubborn.

http://www.dictionaryofwords.com/search.php?q=stubborn&rad=YM&x=25&y=6

189 moby thesaurus words for "stubborn":
adamant, adamantine, adherent, adhesive, assiduous, balking, balky,
bigoted, bulldogged, bulldoggish, bulldoggy, bulletheaded,
bullheaded, cantankerous, cartilaginous, case-hardened, chewy,
clingy, cohesive, constant, continuing, contumacious, coriaceous,
determined, diligent, dogged, dogmatic, dour, durable, enduring,
faithful, fanatic, fibrous, firm, fundamentalist, gluey, glutinous,

Great exercise! I also thank your for the link, which I will save. I use Merriam-Webster as my dictionary of choice. What I said above about the accepted thesaurus synonym for the word "stubborn" came from there. If I access my subscription based M-W Unabrigded Dictionary I get this:

Entry Word: stubborn
Function: adjective
Text: 1
Synonyms [SIZE=-1]OBSTINATE[/SIZE], bullheaded, headstrong, intractable, mulish, pigheaded, refractory, stiff-necked, willful, unyielding
Related Word contumacious, insubordinate, rebellious; cantankerous, ornery; ||stunkard, ||stunt
Idioms set in one's ways, stubborn as a mule
Contrasted Words adaptable, pliable, pliant; amenable, tractable
Antonyms docile
2
Synonyms [SIZE=-1]INFLEXIBLE[/SIZE] 2, adamant, inexorable, obdurate, relentless, rigid, single-minded, steadfast, unbending, unyielding

Which hardly cancels the point I was trying to make.

If understand your intention correctly--please tell me if I'm wrong--you are trying to prove that I was incorrect with my statement above about word alternatives and that the English language can have as varied a result as we can have in Chinese. Right?

Now, I'm sure there is one, somewhere, but I don't know of any Chinese thesaurus online that I can access and provide a counterpoint, which, it would obviously be all in Chinese. If you find one, please advise. The thing is, I pointed to a Chinese Dictionary with a two pages result for the word "stubborn" in English. I didn't point to a Chinese Thesaurus for the word "stubborn"... I'm sure you know what that implies.

As for the Moby Thesaurus, please take a word at random from a list of synonyms and related words, and do a thesaurus search on it. If we follow logic and linear thinking, evey single word in a list of synonyms should be contemplated in the thesaurus result for each of the resulting words that comes from said list. That is, they should crosscheck and mirror amongst themselves in succesive search results. This doesn't happen. I took the word "unfailing" from your list above (please pick any you like) and a small percentage of the thesaurus result for that word is reflected in the list for "stubborn"...

The effort to westernize Chinese and bring it down to our level of comprehension is a valiant one. Sad to report that it doesn't work in that direction. The language must be understood natively; it is the Western person that must strive to think in the way of that language, the same way that a Chinese person must leave behind his/her linguistic constructs to comprehend a Western language. Perhaps too obvious to point but they are utterly different.

my_key · Feb 12, 2009

This presents an interesting look at the difference between Darwinism and Creationism. Do things evolve toward God, or are all things originated by God? The idea of parting out infinity seems pretty impossible to me. The idea of letting nature duke it out, and see what adds up, seems more plausible. But what do I know?
__________________

Why not both simultaneously?

Sparhawk · Feb 12, 2009

meng said:
This presents an interesting look at the difference between Darwinism and Creationism. Do things evolve toward God, or are all things originated by God? The idea of parting out infinity seems pretty impossible to me. The idea of letting nature duke it out, and see what adds up, seems more plausible. But what do I know?

LOL! If we start philosophizing about THAT this thread would never end and we'll exhaust our lives discussing it.

Tohpol · Feb 12, 2009

Funny that this 52 thread - despite it's connotations - has developed into such a rich, dynamic and very vibrant one.

Who'da thunk?

Topal

ravenstar · Feb 12, 2009

sparhawk said:
If understand your intention correctly--please tell me if I'm wrong--you are trying to prove that I was incorrect with my statement above about word alternatives and that the English language can have as varied a result as we can have in Chinese. Right?

No I wasn't trying to prove anything actually. If this was misconstrued....sorry. :bows:

In a recent post I talked of 'one-pointedness of mind' where images are no longer labeled but seen multi-faceted....no language, however rich and diversed it is, can do this.

ravenstar

Sparhawk · Feb 12, 2009

ravenstar said:
No I wasn't trying to prove anything actually. If this was misconstrued....sorry. :bows:

In a recent post I talked of 'one-pointedness of mind' where images are no longer labeled but seen multi-faceted....no language, however rich and diversed it is, can do this.

No need for that. We are brainstorming here and the media is terse in import and intent and this is why we, sometimes, must ask for further thoughts.

Now, I've read your opinion above early this morning and thought of adding my own bits to it. I agree with you.

Please allow me the tangent to ask you, and everyone here, to go to the nearest bookstore and buy the Spring 2009 issue of Parabola Magazine. The synchronicity gods put it in front of me yesterday...

I placed a blurb in Twitter yesterday and many saw the value of it. It is a challenging a very good read. It deals with "imagination" and story-telling.

"Imagination" comes from the Latin root "imago." My old Cassell's Latin-English dictionary says for "imago":

1. an image, representation, portrait, figure
2. a likeness
3. the shade or ghost of a dead man; a dream; in Epicurian philosophy, the mental idea or representation of a real object.
4. an echo
5. in discourse, a metaphor, simile, image
II. Subjective: 1. the appearance; 2. the image, idea, conception, mental representation of any object or event.

I will quote from a Parabola's article titled "Imagination and the Void":

Traditional worlds have been unanimous in their metaphysical and spiritual embrace of imagination. The world of images has been universally conceived as an inspiring and pacifying treasury of wisdom: not only a horizon of dream but a space of knowledge. Pre-modern mankind was quite aware that visual representations provide a more direct access to reality than concepts and discourses. It highly prized the power of imagination as a privilege to relate to the beyond. This is why words referring to seeing and "imaging" often denoted, or connoted, a sense of knowledge. Thus, a "theory" amounts to none other, eymologically, that a "vision" of reality. Rites and symbols bear witness to this benefit of directness and integrality with which the discursive process of reason can never catch up. Myths, parables, icons, visionary dreams, sacred ideograms, all bear witness to the instantaneity of the manifestation of the sacred in and through images. Even the most iconoclastic of traditions, namely Judaism and Islam, have not been able to dispense with the human need for visual imagery, if only through their inspiring cultivation of the illumination and calligraphy of the word of God.

Since we are discussing the Yijing here, let me also quote from Richard J. Smith's book, "Fathoming the Cosmos and Ordering the World" (highly recommended) talking about Wang Bi and the Yijing in the "Six Dynasties period through the Tang", pg.92 and onwards:

Consider, for example, his famous statement about the relationship between ideas and images in the Yijing:

"Images are the means to express ideas, and words are the means to explan the images. To yield up ideas completely, there is nothing better than the images, and to yield up the meaning of the images, there is nothing better than words. The words are generated by the images, thus one can ponder the words and so observe what the images are. The images are generated by ideas, thus one can ponder the images and so observe what the ideas are. The ideas are yielded up completely by the images, and the images are made explicit by the words."

But Wang steadfastly maintained that images, like words, were only the means to an end, not to be confused with the end itself. A person who remained fixed on the words would not be able to grasp the images, and someone who stayed fixed on the images would not be able to get the ideas. Thus he argued:

"Since the words are the means to explain the images, once one gets the images, he forgets the words, and, since the images are the means to allow us to concentrate on the ideas, once one gets the ideas, he forgets the images. Similarly, "the rabbit snare exists for the sake of the rabbit; once one gets the rabbit, he forgets the snare. And the fish trap exists for the sake of the fish; once he gets the fish, he forgets the trap." If this is so, then the words are snares for the images, and the images are traps for the ideas... Getting the ideas is in fact a matter of forgetting the images, and getting the images is in fact a matter of forgetting the words. Thus, although the images were established in order to yield up ideas completely, as images they may be forgotten. Although the three lines [representing Heaven, Earth, and Man] were doubled in order to yield up all the innate tendencies of things [by means of hexagrams], as strokes they may be forgotten."

The point he wants to make here, of course, is that a vehicle of understanding can turn into an obstacle if it becomes the principal object of attention.

That's some food for thought...

martin · Feb 12, 2009

sparhawk said:
The point he wants to make here, of course, is that a vehicle of understanding can turn into an obstacle if it becomes the principal object of attention.

Well, in the case of the Yi it's sometimes hard to move from language to image and further, to idea. Because we don't understand the language of the authors very well.
What did they mean? Which image or idea did they try to convey?
It's not always clear.

Of course one could say that there is more than language (text) in the Yi. We have trigrams and hexagrams .. images?
But I think it was Harmen who once wrote that he suspected that trigrams and hexagrams are completely irrelevant. No images there, no meaning, nothing.
I suppose that Harmen tends to identify the Yi with the text. The Yi _is_ the text, there is nothing else.

At the other extreme we have people like Richmond and Lofting. For them the Yi is mainly in the trigrams and hexagrams.
But trigrams and hexagrams are not images in their view. They are language, "the language of the lines"!

It's complicated isn't it?

Sparhawk · Feb 12, 2009

martin said:
But I think it was Harmen who once wrote that he suspected that trigrams and hexagrams are completely irrelevant. No images there, no meaning, nothing. I suppose that Harmen tends to identify the Yi with the text. The Yi _is_ the text, there is nothing else.

At the other extreme we have people like Richmond and Lofting. For them the Yi is mainly in the trigrams and hexagrams. But trigrams and hexagrams are not images in their view. They are language, "the language of the lines"!

It's complicated isn't it?

Yes and no, depending on what your expectations are...

As you are aware, ever since the Han, and perhaps before, there have been two main schools of thought regarding the Yijing, the "yili 義理, Meaning and Pattern" and the "xiangshu 象數, Image and Number." The former emphasizes the value of the text over the symbols, and the latter the symbols over the text. So, almost 2500 years later, I doubt any of us, scholars or otherwise, is going to resolve who's-on-top on that issue. Pick a side, if you wish, or, like I do, keep all doors open and use everything available for interpretation.

meng · Feb 12, 2009

sparhawk said:
"Since the words are the means to explain the images, once one gets the images, he forgets the words, and, since the images are the means to allow us to concentrate on the ideas, once one gets the ideas, he forgets the images.

This is the downbeat, the 1 count, the rhythm emphasis of 52, to my ears. Not that this is in any way a negative thing, but I still hear most of what's discussed in this thread, not as not being 52, but rather it's what lives and moves and thrives upon a mountain: which is life, which is symbolized by fire, which is h-22. I think it's a lovely thread in any case.

charly · Feb 12, 2009

sparhawk said:
Charly,

I understand what you are doing and I think is creative. However, some boundaries must be placed when it comes to metaphorical meanings associated with Chinese characters. They are not Rorschach inkblots... Those are, to a certain extent, the trigrams and hexagrams.

Un abrazo,

Luis:

I almost agree with you, but who will put the boundaries? to say FLOWERS wanting to mean WOMEN is a widely extended metaphor in all sort of cultures, but FLOWERS designate the SEXUAL ORGANS OF SOME TYPE OF PLANTS, this is the explicit meaning, but used metaphorically the range of possible meanings is too wide. Who does put the limits?

I'm not producing personal associations, in the measure that it is possible, I'm not inventing, I'm not creating, only taking here and there some usual ideas as alternatives not excluding the most accepted.

From GEN = stubborn I cann't derive any verb like STILLING, if the accademy can translate stilling based upon some associations, why to exclude another possibilities applying the same procedure but based in another associations?

I'm not a Rorschach specialist but I see too much inkblots of censorship over some chinese characters. Too much engines scattering inkblots over books, animals, plants and persons, too much politically correct interpretations like this:

The king used him to march forth and chastise.
Then it is best to kill the leaders
And take captive the followers. No blame.

It is not the purpose of chastisement to impose punishment blindly but to create discipline.

Evil must be cured at its roots. To eradicate evil in political life, it is best to kill the ringleaders and spare the followers.

In educating oneself it is best to root out bad habits and tolerate those that are harmless.
For asceticism that is too strict, like sentences of undue severity, fails in its purpose.

W/B

What a jewel of political wiseness! Big stick for political dissent, hand of lady for our own tolerable weaknesses.

Abrazo,

Charly

________________________________
I apologizae for not having time enough for reading all the posts, I will do it assap.

rodaki · Feb 12, 2009

just deleted this, better leave it in peace . .

:bows:
rodaki

rodaki · Feb 12, 2009

still really enjoying this thread . .

rodaki

maremaria · Feb 12, 2009

meng said:
This is the downbeat, the 1 count, the rhythm emphasis of 52, to my ears. Not that this is in any way a negative thing, but I still hear most of what's discussed in this thread, not as not being 52, but rather it's what lives and moves and thrives upon a mountain: which is life, which is symbolized by fire, which is h-22. I think it's a lovely thread in any case.

What is the difference between a life-22-adorment and a life-22-pure beauty ?
A solid base ( 52 ) ?

ginnie · Feb 12, 2009

Only a certain type of mind

charly said:
And traveling a mountain I passed by a firm way and the following day this way didn't exist anymore. The foot of the mountain had collapsed during the night because of the heavy rains.

That is the best reason I ever heard why not to argue about words!!!

English is another language where I can say one thing in at least fifteen ways I can think of right off the bat. English and Chinese are very nuanced languages. (Not that I can read or speak Chinese. I don't want to give the wrong impression.)

But I do know a few things about communication. One thing about communication is that 70% of it is visual. So, where is the visual when we're reading the I Ching?

Another 20% of communication is supplied by the sound of the other person's voice. So, where is the sound of the I Ching's voice? It does not have a voice.

We are left, therefore, with the remainder, a tiny fragment of the pie of communication: 10% in the text alone. And this is the dry bone we continue to chew.

We I Ching diviners must be people who like to do things the hard way. We started out by not understanding the I Ching. The most logical thing at that point would have been to drop the darned thing entirely. But, no, we wouldn't give up on it -- maybe because it was so difficult. Who knows? But one thing I do know for sure is that we have more in common than what separates us, because only a certain type of mind would persist in something like this.

ginnie · Feb 13, 2009

Amazing Gifts

martin said:
The Yi _is_ the text, there is nothing else.

Well, it would seem so, especially at first, in the years when one is becoming acquainted with the Yi.

I mean, we asked our burning questions, and in response we got these incomprehensible lines of text. So, associations grew up between these lines of text and what was going on in our lives. Just as the ancient priests were keeping records of what happened next . . . that turned into the text.

If it says that someone seizes the horns of our ox and our cart cannot go, and so forth -- well, don't we find out from experience what that means in modern terms in the country where we live? Isn't this an amazing learning experience? Don't we end by being in awe of the Yi and how it knows things before we can know them? How it can warn us, for example, and save us from harm? And looking back at our hexagrams, how the Yi nailed the situation, every single time, even if we couldn't understand its responses at the time?

Hindsight is too late! Hindsight is too late! Earlier this year I made a mistake in interpreting the Yi. The consequences were very far-reaching. I felt guilty. The Yi told me nobody would blame me, but not to be so deaf in the future!

Isn't that why we are assembled here, to understand better by cooperating, my amazingly gifted friends in language-related skills? Oh well, I suddenly realize that I am talking about Divine guidance. Well, I felt I needed guidance that was divine in nature, not just what someone down the block might offer. That was my motivation to get to know the I Ching better. My morning meditations were on the I Ching.

meng · Feb 13, 2009

maremaria said:
What is the difference between a life-22-adorment and a life-22-pure beauty ?
A solid base ( 52 ) ?

Authenticity (solid base?) is the hallmark of the latter - pure beauty. From there it becomes more and more superficial. But beauty is subjective, in the mind of the beholder, much like humor or music. It doesn't matter, in the pure forms, whether or not it's noticed. The earth's most beautiful scenery may have yet to been seen by humans. Maybe it's right in front of us, even! :mischief:

"The kingdom of heaven is already spread out over the whole earth, and men do not see it." Gospel of Thomas

ravenstar · Feb 13, 2009

sparhawk said:
No need for that. We are brainstorming here and the media is terse in import and intent and this is why we, sometimes, must ask for further thoughts.

Now, I've read your opinion above early this morning and thought of adding my own bits to it. I agree with you.

Please allow me the tangent to ask you, and everyone here, to go to the nearest bookstore and buy the Spring 2009 issue of Parabola Magazine. The synchronicity gods put it in front of me yesterday... I placed a blurb in Twitter yesterday and many saw the value of it. It is a challenging a very good read. It deals with "imagination" and story-telling.

"Imagination" comes from the Latin root "imago." My old Cassell's Latin-English dictionary says for "imago":

1. an image, representation, portrait, figure

2. a likeness

3. the shade or ghost of a dead man; a dream; in Epicurian philosophy, the mental idea or representation of a real object.

4. an echo

5. in discourse, a metaphor, simile, image

II. Subjective: 1. the appearance; 2. the image, idea, conception, mental representation of any object or event.

I will quote from a Parabola's article titled "Imagination and the Void":
Traditional worlds have been unanimous in their metaphysical and spiritual embrace of imagination. The world of images has been universally conceived as an inspiring and pacifying treasury of wisdom: not only a horizon of dream but a space of knowledge. Pre-modern mankind was quite aware that visual representations provide a more direct access to reality than concepts and discourses. It highly prized the power of imagination as a privilege to relate to the beyond. This is why words referring to seeing and "imaging" often denoted, or connoted, a sense of knowledge. Thus, a "theory" amounts to none other, eymologically, that a "vision" of reality. Rites and symbols bear witness to this benefit of directness and integrality with which the discursive process of reason can never catch up. Myths, parables, icons, visionary dreams, sacred ideograms, all bear witness to the instantaneity of the manifestation of the sacred in and through images. Even the most iconoclastic of traditions, namely Judaism and Islam, have not been able to dispense with the human need for visual imagery, if only through their inspiring cultivation of the illumination and calligraphy of the word of God.

Since we are discussing the Yijing here, let me also quote from Richard J. Smith's book, "Fathoming the Cosmos and Ordering the World" (highly recommended) talking about Wang Bi and the Yijing in the "Six Dynasties period through the Tang", pg.92 and onwards:
Consider, for example, his famous statement about the relationship between ideas and images in the Yijing:

"Images are the means to express ideas, and words are the means to explan the images. To yield up ideas completely, there is nothing better than the images, and to yield up the meaning of the images, there is nothing better than words. The words are generated by the images, thus one can ponder the words and so observe what the images are. The images are generated by ideas, thus one can ponder the images and so observe what the ideas are. The ideas are yielded up completely by the images, and the images are made explicit by the words."

But Wang steadfastly maintained that images, like words, were only the means to an end, not to be confused with the end itself. A person who remained fixed on the words would not be able to grasp the images, and someone who stayed fixed on the images would not be able to get the ideas. Thus he argued:

"Since the words are the means to explain the images, once one gets the images, he forgets the words, and, since the images are the means to allow us to concentrate on the ideas, once one gets the ideas, he forgets the images. Similarly, "the rabbit snare exists for the sake of the rabbit; once one gets the rabbit, he forgets the snare. And the fish trap exists for the sake of the fish; once he gets the fish, he forgets the trap." If this is so, then the words are snares for the images, and the images are traps for the ideas... Getting the ideas is in fact a matter of forgetting the images, and getting the images is in fact a matter of forgetting the words. Thus, although the images were established in order to yield up ideas completely, as images they may be forgotten. Although the three lines [representing Heaven, Earth, and Man] were doubled in order to yield up all the innate tendencies of things [by means of hexagrams], as strokes they may be forgotten."

The point he wants to make here, of course, is that a vehicle of understanding can turn into an obstacle if it becomes the principal object of attention.

That's some food for thought...

Wow that's a full course meal and then some!

I did check out Parabola Magazine. Not only did I like the content but the artwork is fantastic! Hopefully the bookstore near my home carries this.....I'll look for it on the weekend.

I'd like to look at a couple of things you said. In Imagination and the Void

Pre-modern mankind was quite aware that visual representations provide a more direct access to reality than concepts and discourses.

This is indeed a fascinating subject of mine. Primitive man lived his life in connection with his environment. He saw and interacted with spirits and gods in every animal, tree, stone and cloud. Every event and natural force was animated with his inner vision. His basic consciousness WAS visual. He thought, felt, lived visually. Even dreams and fantasies were of more value than cognitive thought. Man lived in nature and visualiztion was the way in which he related to the world. Many cave dwellers were evident of this as the walls of their caves represented images, mostly of animals. You can imagine them sitting around the fire, staring at these images, reliving the events of a great hunt and anticipating more to come.

And there were also pictures of men wearing animal masks.....putting on the mask they become one with the animal and gained power over it. To do this all his senses had to be awakened....the imager and the image became one. Primitive man saw himself as part of a unity encompasing both the physical and the spiritual....everything in his life was tied to his view of the universe.

Ochwiay Biano (Mountain Lake) a chief of the Taos Pueblo told Carl Jung....
"We are a people who live on the roof of the world; we are the sons of Father Sun, and with our religion, we daily help our father to go across the sky. We do not do this only for ourselves, but for the whole world. If we were to cease practicing our religion, in ten years the sun would no longer rise. Then it would be night forever."

Carl Jung replied...
"Knowledge does not enrich us, it removes us more and more from the mythic world in which were were once at home by right of birth."

Words can evoke particular images, enabling us to share with another an experience...they help us to distance ourselves from something that happened and allow us to talk about it. Which we're doing here.

Words and images can be likened to the ping poing effect and Wang described it beautifully.

Thank you, I really enjoyed reading this sparkhawk and will explore it more.

ravenstar

maremaria · Feb 13, 2009

meng said:
Authenticity (solid base?) is the hallmark of the latter - pure beauty. From there it becomes more and more superficial. But beauty is subjective, in the mind of the beholder, much like humor or music. It doesn't matter, in the pure forms, whether or not it's noticed. The earth's most beautiful scenery may have yet to been seen by humans. Maybe it's right in front of us, even! "The kingdom of heaven is already spread out over the whole earth, and men do not see it." Gospel of Thomas

I see line 52.1 > 22 and 52.6> 15 here. Abandoning the 22.1 cart and reach to a 15 state and all this through a 52 proccess.
Its a misty thought, have find the links yet to share them here.

maremaria · Feb 13, 2009

ravenstar said:
Carl Jung replied...
"Knowledge does not enrich us, it removes us more and more from the mythic world in which were were once at home by right of birth."

ravenstar

I wish i could share with you some extracts from I little book I came across.( i don't have the book in my hands and its written in Greeks) There are small stories written from 8-10 years old children. Those children , being near the "mythic world" have create some amazing stories.

I'll try to find one and post it .

hilary · Feb 13, 2009

I worry a bit about that Wang Bi quotation - the notion that once you get the idea, you can discard the image. It seems to me to lead straight to the 'modernised versions' that discard tigers, horses, wells and willow-trees in favour of abstractions. We humans do think, live and change through images and stories. If we try to go straight to the idea ('it's about transformation - forget the stuff about the tiger, that's just an illustration') we may never experience the essence.

barbra said:
One thing about communication is that 70% of it is visual. So, where is the visual when we're reading the I Ching?

All over the place...

Mental images of tigers, horses, wells and willow-trees...

The images within the characters. I don't read Chinese either, but I've come across a few passages where tracing etymologies reveals a whole undercurrent of associations. Like all the treading and walking in hexagram 2, or the 'words, no person-words' in 47, or the left and right hands in the Image of 11 that come straight from its name.

Trigram landscapes.

Hexagrams as pictures.

Sparhawk · Feb 13, 2009

hilary said:
I worry a bit about that Wang Bi quotation - the notion that once you get the idea, you can discard the image. It seems to me to lead straight to the 'modernised versions' that discard tigers, horses, wells and willow-trees in favour of abstractions. We humans do think, live and change through images and stories. If we try to go straight to the idea ('it's about transformation - forget the stuff about the tiger, that's just an illustration') we may never experience the essence.

I suppose the whole premise can be unsettling for some, yes. However, I don't think it leads to what you fear, on the contrary. It is the notion that "images," at a certain level of comprehension, start working like "words." That is, they become more "explicit" than "abstract." The lines are blurred and the "idea," contained in the "image," jumps the "words" step and is conveyed directly. Thus, the "images" can be "discarded" as representations of reality: when encountered they are comprehended AS reality. As such, what you fear--missing the essence--will not happen. The danger and the caveats that Wang Bi communicated is the very real possibility that the student will get stuck in the contemplation of the images and will never cross over to comprehension.

martin · Feb 13, 2009

barbra said:
We I Ching diviners must be people who like to do things the hard way. We started out by not understanding the I Ching. The most logical thing at that point would have been to drop the darned thing entirely. But, no, we wouldn't give up on it -- maybe because it was so difficult. Who knows? But one thing I do know for sure is that we have more in common than what separates us, because only a certain type of mind would persist in something like this.

I think people persist because they sense something in the Yi that is often absent in contemporary philosophy, psychology, science, and so on.
The Yi offers a different way of looking at things, a different understanding.
Closer to the basics of life, closer to earth. Earth wisdom?

Modern thought can be smart and even spiritual sometimes but it is rarely wise in a down to earth sense. A lot of it is neocortex stuff that doesn't reach the old reptilian brain.
If I were a crocodile - and I am one deeper down

- I wouldn't understand a word of it. What is that mind high up there talking about? All I hear is empty and useless blablabla.
Tell me where the water is, and the sun, tell me when spring comes, that is what I would like to know ..

martin · Feb 13, 2009

hilary said:
I worry a bit about that Wang Bi quotation - the notion that once you get the idea, you can discard the image. It seems to me to lead straight to the 'modernised versions' that discard tigers, horses, wells and willow-trees in favour of abstractions. We humans do think, live and change through images and stories. If we try to go straight to the idea ('it's about transformation - forget the stuff about the tiger, that's just an illustration') we may never experience the essence.

I think the problem here is that the idea is put into words and then what can happen is that we forget the idea after a while and only remember the words ..
"Transformation" yes, but what does that mean? Only the empty vehicle of the word remains. The meaning has left.

So somehow we have to learn again to stay with the idea as it is, before it is put into words. I say "again" because I think that children can stay with ideas quite easily.
But then comes "education" and language become very important. Too important.
As grownups we don't trust or believe meaning if we can't catch it with words, with the "hands" of the mind.
Language is great but there can be too much of it.

Hmm, hope it is clear what I mean? Can't word it very well right now.

maremaria · Feb 13, 2009

martin said:
So somehow we have to learn again to stay with the idea as it is, before it is put into words. I say "again" because I think that children can stay with ideas quite easily.
But then comes "education" and language become very important. Too important.
As grownups we don't trust or believe meaning if we can't catch it with words, with the "hands" of the mind.
Language is great but there can be too much of it.

Hmm, hope it is clear what I mean? Can't word it very well right now.

This is what i wanted to say too.
Sometimes, when I get a line and I feel excactly what it means, I find myself , struggling to put it into words. Its funny but its what Martin says. The idea is there even without words.
Its like asemic writing. People create their own alphabet, their own symbols to express that idea.

rodaki · Feb 13, 2009

maremaria said:
I see line 52.1 > 22 and 52.6> 15 here. Abandoning the 22.1 cart and reach to a 15 state and all this through a 52 proccess.
Its a misty thought, have find the links yet to share them here.

may I give this a try?
I think that a solid base (mountain) is what equalizes the perceived differences in views of adornment and pure beauty; it puts the 2 aspects of beauty (hex.22) on equal ground (hex.15) and keeps them in proportion . . perhaps looking on things with a mind hard to move, makes it easier to balance the scales between outer/inner, facade/essence

p.s.: by the way, I think 'Moderate' could be a good alternative for 15, in nice agreement to LiSe's "Give and Take" (in public discussions there is always a moderator who checks and keeps the balance)

how does that sound?
rodaki

meng · Feb 13, 2009

rodaki said:
looking on things with a mind hard to move

maremaria · Feb 13, 2009

rodaki said:
may I give this a try?
I think that a solid base (mountain) is what equalizes the perceived differences in views of adornment and pure beauty; it puts the 2 aspects of beauty (hex.22) on equal ground (hex.15) and keeps them in proportion . . perhaps looking on things with a mind hard to move, makes it easier to balance the scales between outer/inner, facade/essence

how does that sound?
rodaki

To me good, its the way I see it more or less.

My misty thoughts have to do with how/why we enter in 52 and how we exit. The reasons, the needs, the things we want to accomplish and all this in the context of 22 and 15. Beauty, energy (22) and a right way (to us) appraise ,weight, assess.

Mostly I try to connect a personal experience with those hexagram. Hope its not off topic

52. Ken / Keeping Still, Mountain

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