Hex. 53 (memorizing the I Ching)

maremaria · Mar 6, 2009

Frank, thanks.
Will study this and be back with questions.
Btw , great picture !!!

Maria

charly · Mar 6, 2009

my_key said:
...
The small seeds need to be encouraged to have there say. ( it's going to grow ....... a young 2 year old having a temper tantrum ?....and make mistakes )
No-thing wrong here. (Be gentle on yourself because what we do best is not be perfect.)
...

Mike:

Sometimes children can be like little tyrants.

About 厲 Li and DANGER, you can see LiSe:

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/origins/goodbad.htm

I wonder if 厲 Li could be a personal name.

Maybe a name for boy, Litle Kid Danger or a name for girl, Little Kid Barbra. Remember Mr.Danger and Mrs. Barbra in the R.Gallegos' novel.

Maybe a young heir at the command of the kingdom. Here is the story of a Zhou King whose postumous name was LI, and what happened with his son:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Li_of_Zhou

All H.53 is under the sign of PREGNANCY, 漸 jian4, The Wheel of Fortune, a risk or a promise depending on the viewpoint.

The advices:

For girls, «beware of little dangerous kids, although litle, they would be no less effective».

For boys, «be responsible of your little kid's behavior, he would be doing things from which consequences you would have to take charge».

After all 53.1 might be about dynastic conflicts. And the geese?

Yours,

Charly

diamanda · Mar 7, 2009

charly said:
Sometimes children can be like little tyrants.

For girls, «beware of little dangerous kids, although litle, they would be no less effective».

For boys, «be responsible of your little kid's behavior, he would be doing things from which consequences you would have to take charge».

After all 53.1 might be about dynastic conflicts.

My own two experiences with this line were very similar to the above.

On the first occasion, a young colleague had to be kept from speaking since he
really didn't know much on the subject, and he was in danger of being blamed
for something. He didn't speak in the end (not because he didn't want to, but
because he was purposefully and indirectly prevented), and thus escaped the
danger. "Dynastic conflicts" sounds so apt here.

The second occasion concerned an acquaintance, and the 'boy' was silly enough
to say something really silly to his girl-to-be. He sounded really rude, and there
was an argument. And gossip of course.

If you ask me, the 'young son' will be in danger if he speaks, not if he doesn't.
Of course he is not to blame for being inexperienced, but still the situation is
one where he'd better remain silent, otherwise there'll be trouble. Perhaps he
should wait till he draws a 4:5, or a 25?

charly said:
And the geese?

I love Tuck Chang's commentary on this one:
http://www.iching123.com/53_text.htm
The way i understand it, the girl is ready to be married, but the man is not ready
to be married yet (too inexperienced for now). The geese are ready to set upon
their journey, towards their goal, but there is a minor hindrance. In which case,
the girl should be understanding and persevering (37), and same goes for the geese.
They know they have a purpose, and a minor hindrance should not deter them. If
they remain persevering (37) then the danger of the young son will prove to be
nothing serious.

rosada · Mar 7, 2009

a) The wild goose gradually draws near the cliff.
Eating and drinking in peace and concord.
Good fortune.

b) "Eating and drinking in peace and concord": he does not merely eat his fill.

Ken is mountain, hence the image of a cliff. The nuclear trigram Kan indicates eating and drinking. When the wild goose finds food, it calls its comrades. This line is yielding and related to the nine in the fifth place, which it calls. It does not eat to satisfy itself alone but takes thought at once of others as well.
-Wilhelm

Trojina · Mar 7, 2009

diamanda said:
If you ask me, the 'young son' will be in danger if he speaks, not if he doesn't.
Of course he is not to blame for being inexperienced, but still the situation is
one where he'd better remain silent, otherwise there'll be trouble. Perhaps he
should wait till he draws a 4:5, or a 25?

.

absolutely agree, my experience backs that up..

rosada · Mar 7, 2009

Okay, so in 53.1 the young son is still too new to the situation to speak up. Better to remain silent until there is a bit of security and then one can bond over a pleasant meal, 53.2. What I don't understand is how is it decided which of the many meanings of a trigram is valid in a given situation. I mean, in 29 Kan is Danger, where as in this hexagram the trigram means eating and drinking and is considered to represent safety. Is it because of the line position or tradition or what?
rosada

Trojina · Mar 7, 2009

rosada said:
Okay, so in 53.1 the young son is still too new to the situation to speak up. Better to remain silent until there is a bit of security and then one can bond over a pleasant meal, 53.2. What I don't understand is how is it decided which of the many meanings of a trigram is valid in a given situation. I mean, in 29 Kan is Danger, where as in this hexagram the trigram means eating and drinking and is considered to represent safety. Is it because of the line position or tradition or what?
rosada

53 is made of trigrams ,Xun, wind above, Ken, mountain below. Kan, water, is not the lower trigram of 53

meng · Mar 7, 2009

I don't see the kind of punitive "he'd better do it, or else" in line 1 ('Id sure hate to be the child or student of some people here.)

I see the line referring not to behavior of the young son but to remind the adults to consider (discuss) if the youngest of the flock are ready for the long migration ahead. All this is to temper ambition with realism, and most of all to insure survival of the flock through their future generation.

martin · Mar 7, 2009

rosada said:
Okay, so in 53.1 the young son is still too new to the situation to speak up. Better to remain silent until there is a bit of security and then one can bond over a pleasant meal, 53.2. What I don't understand is how is it decided which of the many meanings of a trigram is valid in a given situation. I mean, in 29 Kan is Danger, where as in this hexagram the trigram means eating and drinking and is considered to represent safety. Is it because of the line position or tradition or what?
rosada

This is one of those cases where an explanation of the meaning of a line seems ad hoc, made for the occasion.
Not much to understand, I think, except that at least some of these explanations should be taken with a wagon load of salt.

Having said that, line 2 in not only central but also in the right place for a broken line. And it has a proper correlate.
So it makes sense to assume that the subject of line 2 is quite safe. Not that much salt needed.

meng · Mar 7, 2009

I'll order my salt with a little pepper, thank you.

Trojina · Mar 7, 2009

I've mentioned my association of 53 sometimes with the grindingly slow processes of beaurocracy in which all has to be completed in order/in due course before things can proceed..recently i drew 53.1 prior to a daunting interview with someone of beaurocratic power where i did see my self as the young son and guarded speech on my part was a good idea...later i drew 53.2 about the same interview, when it was over...relaxing later.

my_key · Mar 8, 2009

meng said:
I don't see the kind of punitive "he'd better do it, or else" in line 1 ('Id sure hate to be the child or student of some people here.)

I see the line referring not to behavior of the young son but to remind the adults to consider (discuss) if the youngest of the flock are ready for the long migration ahead. All this is to temper ambition with realism, and most of all to insure survival of the flock through their future generation.

It's perhaps a joint message for both the adult and child within us all. Maybe the young son isn't ready to speak up with full knowledge and certainty but his growth will be best achieved by being supported and encouraged. I never really liked the old "little children should be seen and not heard" idiom. Meng "to temper ambition with realism " is good phrase, bearing in mind we will not always be successful in tempering the ambition. There are a lot of new toys to play with in 53.1 and the temptation to switch a few on and let them run amok may be too great for the little child.

Mike

ravenstar · Mar 8, 2009

frank_r said:
Hello Maria and janice,

The idea is that in each hexagram there are three karmic or kosmick parts. You make a new hexagrams of line 1-2-3 and and 2-3-4. This is the lower core, From line 2-3-4 and 3-4-5, this is the most important the middle core(the well known nucleur hexagram), and line 3-4-5 and 4-5-6 for the upper core.

The lower core is the karma that you are building up, the interaction with the surrounding.
The middle core is the most important that is the karma, the deeper message, at this moment.This hexagram has a influence on your being.
The upper core is the karma that you are going to, the karma that you are learning to control and can come on a higher level.

When you do this technique that you always get one of the 12 karmick hexagrams(23,24,27,28,37,38,39,40,43,44,53,54), or one of the four kosmick(1,2,63, 64).

For instance in 53 the karma the lower core is 39. To interact with your surroundings in the case of longlasting problems you need to overcome obstacles.

The middle core is 64 finding new roads. Only then you can overcome longlasting problems. In 53 you are connected to 64 one of the kosmick hexagrams. 64 is together with 63 a hexagram that you learn to adept to new ways to ajust to life. These 2 hexagrams give you the possiblilty to be flexible. To be as water and fire without overruling each other.

And the upper core is 53. The karma that can be controlled. So in the last periode of this longlasting proces there is this knowhow that the beginning and the end have the same kind of energy. The end is a kind of beginning and vic versa. How older the tree on top of the mountain, how more the branches go to Heaven, how deeper the roots go into the Earth to get water out of the soil. We human are the synthesis between Heaven and Earth. How more you get to know about life. How bigger the distance between our roots(Earth) and Branches(Heaven) can be.

Frank

Wow Frank that tree has beautiful widespread roots that sends out feelers, intent on making contact with lots of people and information.....which it pulls up to the top through osmosis! It is a seeker, mentally and physically roaming. looking for the meaning of life. There is also has a sense of vulnerability to this tree......looks as if it is super sensitive in picking up thoughts and feelings around it.

It's as if it is saying....everything that needs to be known can be found as long as we are prepared to learn and also reflect on what we find. And if we are prepared, then we would attract others (a flock) that would start to gather, travel and mix with an assortment of others and perhaps even mentally touch the collective unconsious.

Could also these 12 karmic hexagrams have something to do with our spiralling DNA which is endeavoring to evolve into a multidimensional SELF, linking, energizing and opening our etheric web and chakras with the rhythms of nature and the ultimate quest for shared consciousness?

Is it (karma) about learning to use the material of our own history to re-evaluate, re-examine and re-organize what we think we know about life? After all we know that the Earth has seeded many different civilizations, each bearing gifts as well as illusions.

Childhood begins with the purity of thoughts that through the growing years becomes suppressed, layered and stacked up as we move to adulthood.

....a characteristic of childhood is that, thanks to its naivete and unconsciousness, it sketches a more complete picture of the self, of the whole man in his pure individuality, than adulthood. Consequently, the sight of a child or a primitive will arouse certain longings in adult, civilized persons....longings which relate to the unfulfilled desires and needs of those parts of the personality which have been blotted out of the total picture in favor of the adapted persona." Carl Jung

ravenstar

rosada · Mar 9, 2009

Martin - thanks for that explanation about Kan usually meaning danger but having a different meaning, eating and drinking, because the line is in position 2, a safe place. Trojan - Kan is the lower nuclear trigram of 53.
Rosada

rosada · Mar 9, 2009

Nine in the third place means:

The wild goose gradually draws near the plateau.
The man goes forth and does not return.
The woman carries a child but does not bring it forth.
Misfortune.
It furthers one to fight off robbers.

The high plateau is dry and unsuitable for the wild goose. If it goes there, it has lost its way and gone too far. This is contrary to the law of development.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Mar 9, 2009

Speaking of robbers, for those of you interested in Compass School Feng Shui (as opposed to the more commonly known Black Hat Sect), the East direction of all buildings is being threatened by the robbery star this year. To protect one's life from robbery during 2009 it is advised one put fire or the color red in the east section of the house.
rosada

rosada · Mar 10, 2009

It is the same in human life. If we do not let things develop quietly but plunge of our own choice too rashly into the struggle, misfortune results. A man jeopardizes his own life, and his family perishes thereby. However, this is not at all necessary; it is only the result of transgressing the law of natural developement. If one does not willfully provoke conflict, but confines himself to vigorously maintaining his own position and to warding off unjustified attacks, all goes well.
-Wilhelm

meng · Mar 11, 2009

my_key said:
It's perhaps a joint message for both the adult and child within us all. Maybe the young son isn't ready to speak up with full knowledge and certainty but his growth will be best achieved by being supported and encouraged. I never really liked the old "little children should be seen and not heard" idiom. Meng "to temper ambition with realism " is good phrase, bearing in mind we will not always be successful in tempering the ambition. There are a lot of new toys to play with in 53.1 and the temptation to switch a few on and let them run amok may be too great for the little child.

Mike

Thanks, Mike.

Yes, they fly as one unit, all are affected if one isn't ready. That's quite a concept, isn't it? Imagine, a whole species/family failing, because the strong were too ambitious to wait for the weak. Not that it still isn't survival of the fittest; course it is, but even that sorting out process takes time to develop.

ravenstar · Mar 11, 2009

In regard to Hex 53.3, I'd like to quote LiSe's site http://yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_49-64/hex_e_53.htm as well as the Sabian Symbol she's chosen for this line.

Quoted by LiSe - There must be a permanent thread in your emotions, reactions and deeds, so others can expect what you will do next. If there is not, cooperation or building up a life together is not possible. This solid structure together is made by everyday small events.

AND

6 at 3 corresponds to Virgo 21: A girl's basketball team.
Just a bunch of girls, but when they get to know each other, cooperation emerges

When we watch basketball, some players are intent on holding the ball longer than anticipated by the crowd or the teams. In fact it's almost as if the player holding the ball has a feeling of dread of losing, giving it up or surrendering the ball to another player.

It's as if the person needs to think long and hard about things before making any moves because they want to know in advance exactly where it will be going. The unexpected unnerves them and they may have trouble making sudden adjustments. Also, they lack confidence in their timing.

This is not a time to keep emotions all bottled up. If the team is going to work, they need to express and air their feelings....open up to each other. Then their greatest strength will be the ability to persevere great odds while still supporting and connecting to each another. For sure there would be a 'leader' who would honestly and sincerely inspire the trust of those s/he influences, adding insights and energy to those who need that special push to get ahead. With this steadying influence, the whole team would feel secure and adapt to changes life brings and look forward to them.

ravenstar

rosada · Mar 14, 2009

The high plateau is dry and unsuitable for the wild goose. If it goes there, it has lost its way and gone too far. This is contrary to the law of development.
It is the same in human life. If we do not let things develop quietly but plunge of our own choice too rashly into a struggle, misfortune results. A man jeopardizes his own life, and his family perishes thereby. However, this is not at all necessary; it is the result of transgressing the law of natural development. If one does not willfully provoke a conflict, but confines himself to vigorously maintaining his own position and to warding off unjustified attacks, all goes well.
-Wilhelm

jilt · Mar 14, 2009

dear all, feel like breaking in a process that is on it's way, but anyway, found this for the 3rd line in "fanthoming the cosmos and ordering the world" (the yijing and it's evolution in China) R. Smith, p17.

the wild goose seems to have been an natural omen evoking marital separation. This was perhaps military campains in ancient china were typically launched at the onset of winter, thus avoiding the summer monsoon rains and coming after the autumn harvests had been collected.
The seasonal coincidence of soldiers marching of in formation with wild geese flying off -also in formation- must have suggested to observers convinced that the natural world and the human world were but two aspects of the same system of changes that the flight of geese was invaiably associated with the march of soldiers (but not in any cause-effect relationship; rather, the 2 phenomena were viewed as necessarily coincidental)
And, by yet any further association, since all to many soldiers did not return from the campaigns, the appearance of the geese predicted the disappearance of the men. For wifes, in particular, this could not have been an auspicious omen.

well well, that was a lot of typing.

I have something more to say about 53 in general: It is about engagement. In all other parts of the world in time and place, except in the modern west, marriage has been an exchange of goods and marriagepartners between two familygroups, in that sequence, to tighten relations between the 2 familygroups. In the time of angagement the partners and families got to know eachother better, adapted their customs to eachother, the marriagepartners adapted to the habits of the new groups. I think 53 is about his process of adaptation into a new group, a socialization-process.

Men were inclined to prove themself in fighting and going on campaigns in that period, they had the right age for it. The war was also an excuse to escape an unwanted relation in an arranged marriage.

rosada · Mar 14, 2009

I've certainly been experiencing a lot of frustration lately trying to "marry" my style of doing things with the "in-laws", that is, the other people I'm having to work with. I think trojan mentioned earlier in this thread that she had found 53 seemed to portend a time of red tape. 53.3 give sage advice when it suggests not rushing ahead. Defend one's position and wait for the traffic to clear...
Well we've been on this line for awhile so I'm gonna go ahead to 53.4.

rosada · Mar 14, 2009

53.4
Six in the fourth place means:
The wild goose gradually draws near the tree.
Perhaps it will find a flat branch. No blame.
-Wilhelm

sophie · Mar 15, 2009

Of this line, and of the tree mentioned, Javary and Faure write: "Associated to Spring and to dawn in the symbolism of the Five Elements, it evokes a welcome new beginning after the discouraging phase of sterility described in the preceding line. Situated between two lines where birth is mentioned, it invites, like the second line, to a pause. Between the shore of the first line and the hill of the fifth, here the development goes through a horizontal stage: the bird is searching for a flat branch to make a deserved and restful halt. Correct and in good relation with the sovereign line, this minister line...links the preceding efforts with the final objective of the hexagram. In order to continue progression, one must, at this stage, find a stable place where to land awhile." (my translation from the French)

I've always seen this line as a temporary resting place to recoup and find the courage to go on with the long endeavour engaged upon - but a resting place that is not so comfortable that we are tempted to linger. It's a bit like a mountain hut: just right when you need a rest after a long climb with it share of frustrations, but not a place to stay beyond the need to recoup your strength and decide on your next movements.

Interestingly, I am going through this stage in my life right now. Although the place where I am staying is comfortable, it doesn't feel quite right for the long term.

rosada · Mar 15, 2009

Totally fits. I'm taking a few days to visit a friend before facing the final week of taxes and cleaning the garage. I didn't bring my I Ching with me in case anyone feels to post Wilhelm's comments on 53.4. Otherwise I will post them when I get back to Pasadena Tuesday.
rosada

rosada · Mar 17, 2009

A tree is not a suitable place for a wild goose. But if it is clever, it will find a flat branch on which it can get a footing. A man's life too, in the course of its development, often brings him into inappropriate situations, in which he finds it difficult to hold his own without danger. Then it is important to be sensible and yielding. This enables one to discover a safe place in which life can go on, although he may be surrounded by danger.

"Perhaps it will find a flat branch." It is devoted and gentle.

This line has entered the upper trigram Sun, wood, hence the image of its gradually approaching a tree. The tree itself affords no foothold for the wild goose, whose feet are not made for clutching; but through adaptability and devotion it may find a flat branch. This is a weak line in a weak place, hence it is correct. It is therefore adaptable and cautious, and thus temporarily finds a resting place.
-Wilhelm

my_key · Mar 17, 2009

53.4 - Nigel Redmond says " we are less interested in holding off activity , we allow it to be what comes, so that we may find that there is a way,in which case we can take advantage of it, or we may find that there is not and we must be prepared to carry on. Persisting in this mode of being we ride life, allowing it to take us on our way and we learn lesson about our desire for security. Geese do not live in trees, identity may visit identified places, but they are not it's home either. The visiting is not an error but neither is it a home - coming"

So the dangers of the narrow-minded attitudes of 53.3 that have potentially cropped the development opportunities are moved beyond. The slow pace allows us to see the things before us differently, ego is less dominant. Rather than trying to control we are more accepting of things as they are. We find a new comfort zone where we can rest. The reasons why we are making the choices become clearer, we become better able to go with the flow. Our choices take us to a different comfort zone(s). It is a safe place to rest in the migration journey. The goose can rest but still has a way more flying to do yet.

Mike

rosada · Mar 17, 2009

Really like that insight, Mike, "A slow pace ... ego less dominant"!
Rosada

rosada · Mar 18, 2009

53.5
0 Nine in the fifth place means:
The wild goose gradually draws near the summit.
For three years the woman has no child.
In the end nothing can hinder her.
Good fortune.

The summit is a high place. In a high position one easily becomes isolated. One is misjudged by the very person on whom one is dependent - the woman by her husband, the official by his superior. This is the work of deceitful persons who have wormed their way in. The result is relationships remain sterile, and nothing is accomplished. But in the course of further development, such misunderstandings are cleared away, and reconciliation is achieved after all.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Mar 18, 2009

What indicates that "deceitful persons ... have wormed their way in"?
r.

Hex. 53 (memorizing the I Ching)

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