Open Space

meng · Jul 10, 2009

trojan said:
For goodness sake we are being asked for our thoughts, our thoughts are what we are giving. These aren't demands.

I'm giving my thoughts too, if that's ok with you. I've made no demands, have I? You're right, it does have to work both ways.

to continue...

My thoughts regarding that is that, anything can be shut down when it doesn't work the way we want. But is that the best answer in this case?

meng · Jul 10, 2009

trojan said:
For goodness sake we are being asked for our thoughts, our thoughts are what we are giving. These aren't demands. I don't care if it isn't shut down, but i am giving my personal opinion about it and its not sour grapes, if anyone is sour its you. I mean whats for me to have sour grapes about, nothing has been taken away from me, I don't feel I have been deprived of anything. I thought Hilary is just asking what people think so i am telling her and if she and the rest of the forum think my suggestions are really bad ones I'm fine with that, i really am.

You must ascribe a huge amount of personal power to me if you think that my voicing a preference carries so much weight . I know you'd prefer if i did not speak at all but thats not going to happen

Rather than turn this thread into another nasty fight why don't you just give your ideas rather than attack mine and others. Can't you see you are doing precisely what you accuse me of doing elsewhere

I thought more about it, and you're right. Sorry.

Trojina · Jul 10, 2009

hilary said:
Maybe those aren't the only two possibilities.

No those aren't the only two possibilities in the world but at the moment they are the only two possibilities from my perspective. I was only intending to give my perspective, not speaking for anyone else but myself...which is kind of what i thought we were all being invited to do.

Yes, I do need to be present. The guests (to borrow from Maria) don't vandalise their host's house... but if they haven't seen her for years, and have maybe only heard rumours that she even exists, then they will probably behave differently.

Absolutely.

Maybe a third way would be to have moderators? Maybe one or two, maybe thirty.

Nah, with respect, this is kinda silly because who do you think these moderators are going to be ?

That's an admirably radical idea. You can imagine the poll results for 'Close Shared Readings? Yes/ No' - of course.

No I can't. Do you mean its obvious everyone will want it open ? Maybe, its just not obvious to me.

In theory, Shared Readings is where people who are just getting started with this site and probably with the whole idea of the I Ching can see what it's really about - practical help that makes a real difference. It's important to me to have something like that visible, with no payment barrier in the way.

In practice, one of the biggest reasons why I'm not happy with the forum at present is that I don't feel that Shared Readings does a very good job of showing what it's really about

.

If its really important to you then i guess you need to have something to do with it.

I dunno 40.3 comes to mind here. Its like you want people to behave better and give a better intro to the I Ching in Shared readings but you don't want anything to do with it yourself ??

So yes... easy to sum up the problems, not so easy to come up with solutions. Shutting it down and replacing it with Reading Circle is certainly one - and in lots of ways it would work, as people generally behave very differently indeed in paid forums. But the words 'baby' and 'bathwater' come to mind. I'd like to find an alternative...

Good Luck with that

Trojina · Jul 10, 2009

meng said:
I thought more about it, and you're right. Sorry.

Hey yes but I'm always right didn't you know ! :rofl:

Sparhawk · Jul 10, 2009

Nobody I know has the time, in any forum, to emulate the Bard and spit out flawless, unambiguous and utmost clear prose that would, at a casual glimpse, convey the full intention of the writer. Heck, even the ones that don't know when to stop typing a message fail at that. (Try the ones that, like me, use English as a second language and the problem is compounded...) I believe cyberspace's vernacular and idiosyncrasy has given us a lot of useful acronyms and visual tools that are, IMO (pun intended) underused. Mind you, if one is to be a prick, that will show immediately regardless of any command of the language and prose clarity or the simple use of emoticons. Prose clarity certainly spells out a lot of doubts about the message but disdain is what it is, regardless of the envelope in which it is sent. Please take this as much of a 'mea culpa' as it is a general observation.

Perhaps if "IMHO" or "IMHBPO" (In My Humble But Proud Opinion) were used more often in the SR section to start interpretations for others, a lot of disputes would just fail to ignite.

willowfox · Jul 10, 2009

hilary said:
Willowfox, or anyone else who frequents the Aeclectic Tarot forum - I see they have both a public section for free readings and subscription-only reading sections. What's the difference between the two, and how does that work? Does it depend on Solandia's presence giving (or somehow 'supervising') readings in the free section? If not, why not?

The "your readings" section is open to everyone but the rule is this, the querent must give an interpretation of their cards before anyone is allowed to comment.

The private paid section is mostly for discussions, there is a forum where people can talk about anything accept discussing other members, there is a spirituality section that discusses beliefs etc, there is a game section, competition section. The other readings section hardly gets one question a month as everyone goes straight to "your readings".

hilary · Jul 10, 2009

willowfox said:
The "your readings" section is open to everyone but the rule is this, the querent must give an interpretation of their cards before anyone is allowed to comment.

Now that's an interesting rule! Does it work well in practice over there? Does it sound like it would make a useful difference over here?

willowfox · Jul 10, 2009

sparhawk said:
It has become a race for whom replies first to a post with a request for interpretation

What do you propose, that requests for readings are left to simmer for a few days or even weeks until the querent gets fed up and just goes away?

It is not a race, if I see a question then I will answer it, and some days I have more free time than others to answer questions. Is that wrong again?

When I am not around, say for a few days, then often quite many questions will just pass unanswered as nobody can be bothered to do them all.

meng · Jul 10, 2009

trojan said:
Hey yes but I'm always right didn't you know !

Eh, old dogs are purdy harda hearing sometimes. :hug:

willowfox · Jul 10, 2009

hilary said:
Now that's an interesting rule! Does it work well in practice over there? Does it sound like it would make a useful difference over here?

Your readings section is looked upon primarily as a learning section where we all chip in our interpretations after the querent has provided their own reading. Generally it works well.

The thing is, we all have a deck of cards, and they are so much easier to learn and understand but the I Ching is very different, as nobody sits down and memorizes all the hex and line meanings. Therefore, I know for a fact, that having a system like that here would just not work, as many people cannot relate the lines or the hexes to their situation. So, they just cannot see the answer in a million years. I Ching is not good for answering many types of questions where tarot can cover those questions easily.

heylise · Jul 10, 2009

hilary said:
About individual vv group... there are different ways of experiencing that.

Is a group trying to save the forum, trying to bring balance back by counteracting a difficult individual? Or are they reinforcing their sense of belonging safely in a group by joining in an attack on the one who doesn't belong?
....
For instance -
- is a weird reflection of a theory I came up with at school: on a one-to-one basis, no-one can bully me, they can only have ordinary conversations like anyone else has. What a wonderful relief! But I need to keep an eye open for their followers: if the group joins them, it all changes. (Conversely, if I have even one friend alongside me, they can't bully me, and they melt away.)

I know that there are many different ways of ganging up. I was referring to one single kind. What you experienced is very different, I have seen that happening, but even as a child I could never join in it. I did not dare to do anything against it though in primary school when everyone was pointing and calling names at one girl who was sitting on the bench in the playground crying. It was my first day in a new school, a Christian one after a public school, and you can imagine what it did to my view on believers. Obviously the public-school-heathens were a lot nicer than this bunch.

Your 'reflection' makes a lot of sense! They do melt away when you have a friend (who radiates some self-confidence!). I wish I had known that back then, in that schoolyard. Or that I had had the courage to risk it. But when you are 8 years, and it is the first time you see it happen, you are just bewildered.

pakua said:
I have noticed a number of times occurring here, that whenever there's someone who views Yi a little differently, or practises Yi a little differently, others "gang up" on that person. Usually in the end, they leave. Unfortunately.

Yes, I know. Was a shame, that way some people with a lot of lively energy were sent away. Too lively for some.

But what I referred to was the group which finally acts up against the "small" bully. After a long time of swallowing the irritation, it suddenly comes out. One begins with venting it, and others join in because they are annoyed by it since a long time. They were too polite or nice or whatever to do that yet. So whenever you feel that all gang up against you, it makes a lot of sense to ask Yi if your idea of being the victim is right, or if maybe they were your victims, all this time.

For these things an Open Space with lots of flames is a health-bringing place.

Sparhawk · Jul 10, 2009

willowfox said:
What do you propose, that requests for readings are left to simmer for a few days or even weeks until the querent gets fed up and just goes away?

It is not a race, if I see a question then I will answer it, and some days I have more free time than others to answer questions. Is that wrong again?

It isn't a question of who answers first. There's no intrinsic harm in being the first one to reply. However, it is the reaction to second opinions that sets the tone of the thread.

hilary · Jul 10, 2009

LiSe said:
But what I referred to was the group which finally acts up against the "small" bully.

Yes, I know. The question is, when you have a group that acts against an individual, how do you tell which is the bully?

Did the people who made my life miserable think they were bullies? Certainly not! They thought they were having a bit of fun, and they probably also thought they were dealing with a quite unpleasant, proud, anti-social person. They were quite right about both these things. Maybe I am telling this story all wrong, and all the time the group was protecting itself against me. How will you tell?

(The girl on the bench will not always be crying. If she has any sense, she will certainly learn not to cry where they can see! Sometimes she will look as though she has no feelings at all. Sometimes she will fight back. Good grief... when they stole my stuff and played catch with it, and I was dead scared of the trouble I'd be in when I got home without it and not fast enough to get it back, I would seize the nearest tormentor, wrestle her to the ground and hold her down, and say, 'I'll let her go when you give it back.' Imagine what a member of staff would have said if they'd come in at that point! How would they have interpreted the scene?)

When we left school - by which time I was blending in during school hours and enjoying myself - the headmistress wrote a report about each one of us to be read by the admissions people at universities, doing her best to make us sound good. By a funny succession of events, I was able to read some of what she wrote about me. She said I 'could seem brusque' (translation - 'I do hope she doesn't ruin her chances by being rude to the interviewer'?), speculated as to possible causes in my upbringing, and added that 'Hilary's classmates have learned to tolerate her eccentricities.'

You see? A group says they are dealing with a difficult individual, learning to tolerate them perhaps, or being more vigorous in 'standing up' and 'acting against' their anti-social behaviour. The individual says the group is ganging up on them. Which is true? How will you tell? Is it good enough to say that the majority's interpretation is always right? Could it be that both are true?

(And goodness only knows how to translate any of this into rules and principles for forum moderation!)

rodaki · Jul 10, 2009

oh Hilary, it's obvious why it would be so damn hard to have other people as moderators here . . it is your sensitivity and sensibility that makes you the best person for that!

btw, it's interesting to see by the polls how the more discussions get going more people vote for things to stay the way they have been so far . . something nice is cooking

rodaki · Jul 10, 2009

sparhawk said:
"IMHBPO" (In My Humble But Proud Opinion)

if that isn't one of the best abbreviations ever, I don't know what is!

:bows:

Trojina · Jul 10, 2009

You know I can't see what any of this has to do with bullying at all, I'm finding it a really confusing and irrelevant consideration.

I was going to reiterate what i think the key issues are that you are totally evading Hilary but i guess you all already know

I've never intended to bully. Infact i think if certain key issues had ever been openly and honestly dealt with , or indeed been able to be spoken of at all without the whole bullying hysteria thing
kicking off then quite alot of apparent bullying would never have happened.

You ask 'how to tell who is the bully' ? My answer is this is an irrelevant question here, sidestepping the real issues. I guess I'm wasting energy here as you are wilfully and knowingly evading the real issues in favour of discussions about bullying.....

Trojina · Jul 10, 2009

hilary said:
Yes, I know. The question is, when you have a group that acts against an individual, how do you tell which is the bully?

You see? A group says they are dealing with a difficult individual, learning to tolerate them perhaps, or being more vigorous in 'standing up' and 'acting against' their anti-social behaviour. The individual says the group is ganging up on them. Which is true? How will you tell? Is it good enough to say that the majority's interpretation is always right? Could it be that both are true?

!)

Maybe if you were in the group rather than looking at it as if through zoo bars (and theres already been plenty of animal/trainers analogies lol) you would actually know who is the bully and who is not anyway, if indeed there are any bullies at all rather than simply very different views of what I Ching readings really can say to people.

You said how it is now is not how you want people to be introduced to the I Ching....so how do you want people to be introduced to the I Ching ? Or are you just focused on bullying.

hilary · Jul 10, 2009

We do seem to be going off on something of a tangent, and I agree my headmistress's report is a bit off-topic, and the word 'bullying' and sad stories about traumatised children may just add emotionality and not much else. Still, it all factors in one way or another. For instance, a whole lot of people report a post by X, and I look and see that X is in a big row with Y, and everyone else is backing up Y. What should I do? Doesn't it depend just a little on what I think the dynamics of the situation really are?

(Two asides... just because X and Y may seem recognisable to you doesn't mean I'm posting about specific people. It may be X and Y today, but a few years ago it was much the same thing with M and N, and next year it will happen with A and B.
Also, I'm not saying it's always Y's fault. Sometimes the only solution is for X to adapt, or leave if it turns out s/he can't adapt.)

rodaki said:
oh Hilary, it's obvious why it would be so damn hard to have other people as moderators here . . it is your sensitivity and sensibility that makes you the best person for that!

btw, it's interesting to see by the polls how the more discussions get going more people vote for things to stay the way they have been so far . . something nice is cooking

I think there are plenty of potential moderators, full of sensitivity and good sense. Of course they keep on saying that they'd never have the patience, or that I'm the best person for the job... .

As for the poll... I'm a little bit worried that as this discussion progresses, people might be voting for an ideal forum where self-moderation always works. That isn't actually one of the options

.

hilary · Jul 10, 2009

trojan said:
Maybe if you were in the group rather than looking at it as if through zoo bars (and theres already been plenty of animal/trainers analogies lol) you would actually know who is the bully and who is not anyway, if indeed there are any bullies at all rather than simply very different views of what I Ching readings really can say to people.

You said how it is now is not how you want people to be introduced to the I Ching....so how do you want people to be introduced to the I Ching ? Or are you just focused on bullying.

(*valiantly resisting all kinds of zoo jokes*)

How I'd like people to be introduced to the I Ching? Through intelligible, thoughtful, compassionate, practical interpretations - and actually, through a variety of interpretations, too, so you get a sense of the jewel through the many facets.

meng · Jul 10, 2009

hilary said:
As for the poll... I'm a little bit worried that as this discussion progresses, people might be voting for an ideal forum where self-moderation always works. That isn't actually one of the options .

Nothing always works. Heavy, medium, light, or no moderation will not always work in an ideal way. If it were that simple, everyone would copy one set method or technique or set of rules. No matter which system is employed, as long as there are humans involved, there will always be challenges, particularly if they have strong personalities. It's just the nature of the species.

Mods still take their directives from the general, who must be in the center of the army to have any effect. It is only when all agree on a common goal that any method stands a chance of succeeding. Self moderation, more than anything, means self discipline, as well as a united desire for it to work.

heylise · Jul 11, 2009

Hilary, I am glad that you told your story. You sure got your life-lessons.. and way too young. These things can make you grow into a bitter person, I admire a lot what you made of yourself!

I know that things happen like this. Not only in schools among kids, but just as well in grown-up life. There are differences though. When you are a kid, it is very difficult not to join in that bullying group. For a grown-up it is lots easier to stay out. Not in all social environments, but in a forum like this it is not really difficult. And when you still make that mistake, there is usually a post here or there which awakens you. It has never happened that there was an overall blind persecution of someone. Even when there is a fair complaint about another, there is always someone speaking up on the 'victim's' behalf.

When you have enough empathy to 'feel' what the lonely one feels, you don't join the teasing, not even when you are a young child and not even when it seems only "fun". I am quite proud that I never joined in a group like that. But I didn't have the courage to go openly against them, and that is the biggest problem. Always is, at every age. The great advantage of only-writing is, that that part is less difficult. Still not easy though.

When you take a good look at what happens here, you can most of the time easily recognize who is bully and who is not. When someone enters this forum and starts right away kicking shins, then it is quite clear that there comes a day when everyone gangs up against him/her. There are some who seem to see a different opinion as a deliberate attempt to kick shins, but that is something we will have to deal with every time anew. Make the 'fundamentalists' see that other opinions have a right to live as well. Most of the time that happens right away, sometimes it takes longer, occasionally it happens too late.

We are lucky that there are some here who always keep the overview. Luis is a good example. I have never seen him fall into that kind of a trap. Bruce is another one, more difficult to understand but with a solid feeling for balance. There are several more, but not going to name any more, because then it suddenly feels as if a name is "left out". It is a pity that in the past years several of these people left.

Hmh, this has not been written as a well-thought-through post. Rather 'thinking loud', so maybe there are lots of things not at all clear and not at all consistent.

maremaria · Jul 11, 2009

meng said:
Nothing always works. Heavy, medium, light, or no moderation will not always work in an ideal way. If it were that simple, everyone would copy one set method or technique or set of rules. No matter which system is employed, as long as there are humans involved, there will always be challenges, particularly if they have strong personalities. It's just the nature of the species.

Mods still take their directives from the general, who must be in the center of the army to have any effect. It is only when all agree on a common goal that any method stands a chance of succeeding. Self moderation, more than anything, means self discipline, as well as a united desire for it to work.

:bows:

I asked Yi , just right after Hilary opened the "moderation" thread a simple question .

Q: rules?
A : 7.2

I thought that Yi answered to what I believed about rules and for many personal reasons didn't though it was good to share.

Chuckled when I saw your post.

maremaria · Jul 11, 2009

heylise said:
.

When you take a good look at what happens here...

This is what i was thinking too. Maybe those two threads have all the information needed. Maybe its time Hilary go and think and us too.

Maybe if we all decide not to cause any hot situation for, don't know, 10-15 days,( we can do it , yes ?) will give her the peace of mind and the time to see and draw some conclusions. And then we can continue this conversation.

In the midtime, hope other member come and express their opinion with their vote. Because, i don't want to sound negative, but 20 votes for a such big issues that concerns this forum for years, is not something that can make as happy in term of involment etc.

hilary · Jul 11, 2009

What I think I need to do next:

Send an email to invite people to come and post and vote. (I've missed my last two newsletters - shameful.)
Leave the poll open maybe another week to ensure the maximum number of votes, including from people who aren't such regular participants. (If you agree we could do with some more votes, you could put a link to the 'moderation' thread in your signature for a few days)
Go and think :bows: about the intention and vision for this forum, as well as rules and stuff
Let people know what I come up with
Close the forum completely for a day or so - partly so we have a breathing space and a proper sense of starting afresh, and partly so I can do various overdue technical things which will help with the new ideas. (Like upgrading the software, adding a new plugin, and making sure everything including WikiWing still works.)
Re-open, and see how we go...

maremaria · Jul 11, 2009

Hmmm, ok but something is missing like....

7. Take this weekend off without thinking about Clarity, Moderation, rules, etc etc etc...

hilary · Jul 11, 2009

That's very sweet of you, but I do work weekends

. Thank you for the signature file.

fkegan · Jul 11, 2009

Some problems only time and good will can solve...

Hi Hilary,

First and foremost I would like to note that the recent full moon was a lunar eclipse and the next new moon will be a solar eclipse and the entire world seems to be in the midst of major upset, so it might be prudent to defer any hard actions or definitive changes at least until August.

In terms of what happens in either Shared Readings or Open Space how many incidents or posts are there where the problems arise or involve other than:

someone has made a post that I feel to be an ugly attack upon my sainted self and so I have to counterattack again since we have all been through this before and there was never a resolution to my satisfaction and thus it has to continue on and on and on until I grow beyond this!!

Other than asking folks to please look to the beam in their own eyes before reaching for the pliers to get a hold of the mote in any one else's, which is the traditional comment on such problems...what would be called for?

Frank

hilary · Jul 11, 2009

Of course there's no substitute for the self-moderating forum - no way a set of rules and a moderator running round enforcing them can replace people's capacity to sort things out for themselves. (It's possible to have a discussion forum where this is done, but not much of a conversation, IMO.) But some intervention might at times actually make it easier for people to sort things out. Asking people to stop, giving them a week or so to cool off in if they don't, moving posts to Open Space so they can thrash things out away from the I-Ching-related conversations... or something along those lines.

...actually, I'd welcome practical suggestions about what, along those lines, works well, and what would be a good fit here.

jack12345 · Jul 11, 2009

Hi everyone!

I have some ideas that I think might help.

Why don't we try moderating the forums for about a week and then have people vote
on whether they want to continue with it.

if Hilary doesn't have enough
time to moderate we could vote someone in who everyone feels will do a good job.

To keep moderators in check we could have a daily or weekly vote on
whether we want to keep them for another week and require them
to move all posts that they think aren't appropriate to
another section of the forum specifically for moderated posts(maybe call it that) and explain
in one simple message why they think they aren't appropriate.

This way other forum members can see that the moderator isn't abusing
their power.
Members can then vote on whether the post should be deleted if
it has very offensive comments or archived so that everyone
can read it later if they want or returned back to the section where it was.

For offensive comments I think at least 25 different people should get to
vote before deletion with a two week wait time so that nothing gets deleted
accidentally.

The moderator should be unable to delete posts on their own
to prevent the abuse of a single person or group.
They should only have the power to move posts to the moderated posts section.

Everyone should be able to vote on posts in the moderated posts section
but should not be able to comment so that you prevent endless moderation
stemming from a need to moderate posts in the section for moderation. :duh:

Thanks for reading and I hope my suggestions are helpful!:bows:

Trojina · Jul 11, 2009

Frank can you tell me who you are quoting in your last post, post 57 ? I looked back i can't see who said that anywhere

Open Space

What would you prefer for Open Space?

Same as it is now - virtually unmoderated

Moderated so no personal 'character analysis' posts are allowed at all

Compromise: a place to discuss behaviour from elsewhere in the forums, but with no flaming allowed

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