Open Space

[hilary]

Another question that's come up that I think I can ask you about in parallel with the 'moderation?' question - about Open Space. Right now it has two functions: the off-topic forum, and the 'take your fights here' forum. The theory is that this keeps fights out of Shared Readings etc, because when people want to attack another person's character, or maybe challenge the pattern of their behaviour across several threads, they start a thread for this in Open Space.

That's the theory. The practice is working out rather differently.

So - should we have rules and moderation in Open Space? Same as the rest of the forum? Different?

 

[willowfox]

Let the open forum discuss anything form gems to ufos but as soon as someone makes a degrading, offensive remark to or about another, then delete the post, and send an email warning the offender, 2nd time suspension for 7 days, 3rd time suspension for a month, 4th time completely banned, like in forever.

Why are you even doing a poll about moderating when you can see this whole forum slipping into chaos before your eyes, its Hex 7 time everyone, time to march to a different drummer..

 

[hilary]

Why poll? Because there's more than one side to this. Really strictly moderated forums, where people can't thrash things out between themselves like normal adults, can lack heart. As for why poll on the 'Open Space' question - well, maybe having a place where more is allowed is good for the sense of conversational flow overall. Deleting posts or locking threads means the words are still said, but no-one can reply, and the issue can't be resolved between the people involved. Moving threads to a place where the conversation can be finished off might be better.

Or that might just be a wildly over-optimistic theory. Not sure. Hence, poll.

As for the sense of emergency and it all falling apart... actually after our every 23 here, there's a 24. It's just that I'm getting tired of the cycle and accompanying headaches, and want to find an alternative.

 

[Sparhawk]

While we are at it, perhaps we should subject to a poll the renaming of the "Shared Readings" forum to something more appropriate to the real nature of it. IMO, that name has become the most glaring oxymoron of the whole site. The only "shared" things there are jabs and antagonism between "interpreters." It has become a race for whom replies first to a post with a request for interpretation and that first person, when presented with different interpretations, addressed to the querent, feels the need to defend his/her position and it just degenerates from there... It doesn't really matter who that first person to show his/her proficiency is, really: the pattern will almost certainly present itself. If anything, it is a disservice to the person who really needs an answer and whose confusion isn't attenuated by all the bickering.

 

[sergio]

Hola Luis;
Shredded Readings?Shunting Readers?Extreme Readings?YJWF READINGS?*
Sergio
*Yi Jing Wrestling Federation

 

[hilary]

Yet this pattern doesn't always show up, and hasn't tended to do so in the past. So... how to avoid it?

 

[hilary]

('Shredded Readings' )

 

[Sparhawk]

Yet this pattern doesn't always show up, and hasn't tended to do so in the past. So... how to avoid it?

How far in the past are we talking about? If it doesn't show is mainly because regular participants have learned that second opinions are not really welcomed.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hola Luis;
Shredded Readings?Shunting Readers?Extreme Readings?YJWF READINGS?*
Sergio
*Yi Jing Wrestling Federation

Pretty much, yes...

 

[Trojina]

Yet this pattern doesn't always show up, and hasn't tended to do so in the past. So... how to avoid it?

(are you hell bent on avoiding the real issue ?)

 

[Trojina]

Yet this pattern doesn't always show up, and hasn't tended to do so in the past. So... how to avoid it?

(am assuming theres just some answers you don't want to hear, you want fiction right ?)

 

[willowfox]

On the other site there are over 20,000 members, and nobody is allowed to discuss another member's behaviour in public, if there is a problem one simply reports it to a moderator who promptly deals with it. And the place certainly does not lack heart as everyone does their best to be tolerant and get along with each other for the common good.
And nobody there is allowed to s*** on another's readings like here.
The moderators are the law, not the people and it works well for all concerned, not like here where marauding members can attack whoever they like without fear of retribution.

It is your site, so you make the rules, who cares what others think, if they don't like it tough. But I can already see your new resolve to do something is already melting and it will be back to a free for all soon.

 

[heylise]

I think the rules in Open Space can be different from the rest of the forum. There should be a place where you can vent. There are quite a lot of things which are not bad enough for actually doing something about them, but which can thoroughly spoil communication.

There are some people who make things difficult for others by doing the same annoying thing over and over again, but every single time is not enough to really complain about.

Some can make nasty stabs which are cleverly hidden in seemingly innocent remarks.
Then there are those who kill others creativity by pulling it down to "reality". They often have no idea that they do it. They have facts as religion, and everyone should be converted to it.
Some cannot deal with others who don't agree with their view, and accuse them of attacking. That makes every discussion impossible.
And there is the continuous degrading of others.

No need for any name, I think everyone can recognize these things when they happen.

These are the things which made me leave the 'Shared Readings' area entirely and why I don't go very often anymore to the 'Discussion'. Not the actual flames. The flame-threads get moved - or start - in 'Open Space, and it is my own decision if I go there to read them or not.

But when someone asks a question, and gets a thread as answer in which one reader says unpleasant things about another one's reading. Or when there is an interesting discussion and it gets killed by a "but.." post from a hairsplitter, those are the things which take all the fun out of Clarity.

Protesting against these things is extremely difficult. There is not really a clear thing you can name. Lots of small ones, each of which is not a Big Bad Thing. And the one who did it, cannot even understand what you're talking about.

Some still have the courage to speak up though. Only to get flamed in a big way. And since they cannot put the finger on one Big Bad Thing their post looks like wild accusations to most. So, desperate to save the forum, they get more and more pissed.

When there is no place where these things can be said, I think you will end up with a very boring forum.

Saw many new posts since I started mine. Agree a lot with Luis. I don't think the real problem is flames. It is the shredding.

 

[heylise]

I voted for moderate moderation in Open Space, but I think no moderating is better, but being present is important. This forum is so good because it is 'your', Hilary's, forum. It used to breathe your spirit, and that has been missing for a long time. Most of all in the Shared Readings, where it is most important.

A leader does not 'lead' but is present in the spirit of the place.

 

[hilary]

How far in the past are we talking about? If it doesn't show is mainly because regular participants have learned that second opinions are not really welcomed.

I'm not buying that. We have had plenty of good long discussions about readings with a multitude of perspectives and no one-upmanship worth mentioning.

(are you hell bent on avoiding the real issue?)

No. Maybe I just don't see things quite like you do.

It is your site, so you make the rules, who cares what others think, if they don't like it tough. But I can already see your new resolve to do something is already melting and it will be back to a free for all soon.

No, it isn't.

That whole 'it's my site, if you don't like it go build your own' approach has its appeal.

But... the forum is not just mine. Also, if it's just mine, and all my responsibility to keep everyone's behaviour in line, and no-one else is allowed to say anything about anyone, then I'm something like the teacher in the playground: 'No, if little Tommy hits you, or your friend, you must tell teacher and not hit him back!' And everyone else is reduced to the role of little Thomasina, and this all gets phenomenally silly.

So...

I think the rules in Open Space can be different from the rest of the forum. There should be a place where you can vent. There are quite a lot of things which are not bad enough for actually doing something about them, but which can thoroughly spoil communication.

... ah yes, that's what Open Space is for (besides UFOs etc). So there can be discussion about things that are not in the black and white, 'report post, issue warning, suspend culprit' kind of category but nonetheless it would be good to look at.

When there is no place where these things can be said, I think you will end up with a very boring forum.

Agreed.

Thing is, if the problems are things you can hardly describe, what are the chances of making nice clear rules so people know what not to do? Nil, I should think.

I voted for moderate moderation in Open Space, but I think no moderating is better, but being present is important. This forum is so good because it is 'your', Hilary's, forum. It used to breathe your spirit, and that has been missing for a long time. Most of all in the Shared Readings, where it is most important.

A leader does not 'lead' but is present in the spirit of the place.

You're right. So is everyone else who says this. Only I think, 'More readings? Maybe a 13 hour day instead of 11?' and I am not very happy. I need to go mull what I can do - no point making big commitments that last about a week before I fall over.

 

[Trojina]

I'm not buying that. We have had plenty of good long discussions about readings with a multitude of perspectives and no one-upmanship worth mentioning.


No. Maybe I just don't see things quite like you do.

No, it isn't.






.

I don't really understand why you ask for peoples views if when you get them you just disregard them by saying "i don't buy that' or 'I don't see it like you do'. Just because you do not buy it does not mean its not true. Really you seem to be just asking for suggestions etc that you like. if this is the case then you may as well do what you want in the first place rather than ask us, you aren't going to listen to us anyway if you don't agree.

Just wonder why you ask. You really may as well do what you think as go through a whole long charade of pretending a public discussion..or just go with the poll, what that tells you and do as you think fit.

You actually haven't listened at all to two of us here, even three.....why ask us then ?

 

[Sparhawk]

I'm not buying that. We have had plenty of good long discussions about readings with a multitude of perspectives and no one-upmanship worth mentioning.

Good, I'm not selling. Perhaps we read things differently or perhaps you've been missing a lot of threads (me too, I must confess, as I don't read all the threads in SR but only the ones where those I consider good and interesting post and that's where I've found them). They do, however, have a tendency to have an "Alpha Reader" that mark a clear territory when opposing interpretations are shared.

In any case, my suggestion was a tongue-in-cheek remark, something you should know...

 

[hilary]

Yes, I did say 'no' a lot in that post. No, I don't think any one person is the problem. And my third 'no, it isn't' was about my own state of resolve, and I should know.

As for the 'alpha reader' pattern... I don't believe it's inevitable, because I have seen plenty of threads where it doesn't happen. I don't know what the difference is between those threads, or how to encourage more shared interpretation and less fighting for territory. Maybe someone else has an idea?

I'm asking in the hope of getting positive suggestions about how to solve problems and make this a warmer, more welcoming, more creative place.

So no, I'm not disregarding people's views.

 

[my_key]

Hilary - That's some real sterling work that you are doing at the moment. Well Done.
I'm sure that we all would like to make this a warmer, more welcoming creative place. This would be a win-win situation for us all rather than some of the win-lose scenarios that are dominating areas of the site. Here are some existing methodologies you may want to consider to move things forward positively -

There is an advert on UK TV at the moment for the British Army. A troop are handing out food aid from the back of a lorry in a poor village and quite suddenly the quiet queue, turns into a riot, a frantic melee with people trying to steal the food from the soldiers, beating up on each other etc.
The voice over asks " Well what would you do?" The final shot shows the tailgate of the lorry being closed.

In the "Dog Whisperer" Cesar Milan is always saying to look for the creator of the negative energy in any dog fight. He tackles the aggressor face on and retrains, disperses the energy and re-educates. In extreme cases he isolates them from their environment and brings them into a strong calm assertive pack environment for rehabilitation.

This may also give a few pointers:
http://www.ebc.state.ok.us/NR/rdonl...25-979A-2688DC5D0841/0/conflictresolution.pdfhttp://www.execstrategies.com/Facilitator/ConflictResolutionStrategies.htm

Mike

 

[hilary]

I like your choice of analogies! My impression in our local dog fights (past and present) is that only a few start because there is just one creator of negative energy; as often as not, it's a clash of personalities between two people who each get on perfectly well with most other people, just not with one another. Factions follow.

I don't quite get the point of the army ad. If they close it, does that mean no more food gets distributed? How have they solved anything? (It's been a long couple of days - you may have to explain things to me in words of very few syllables.)

And Luis? Yes, I know. I still like 'Shredded Readings'.

 

[Trojina]

Hilary have you asked the Yi about your role in the Shared Readings area...(if we are talking about shared readings that is, there seem to be numerous threads about moderation somehow) I think total abandonment by you of it has not really felt like a good thing. Hard to say exactly why that should be, I suppose it has this air of neglect, abandonment, like a derelict building....does it need a bit of 37.4 ?...or maybe 37.6. If its not important enough to spend a little time there then maybe you should close it, if you don't like it there maybe you could think about why, that would answer you own question of how it might be a warmer place.

Maybe it doesn't need a big sacrifice, maybe two bowls of rice, ..maybe the Yi will tell you, you must already have thought of asking...

I guess you can't afford to give time to a free forum is the bottom line, but then don't you have to figure if the place is not worth you going to is it worth you having it at all..does it matter in anyway, is it important ?

 

[my_key]

I like your choice of analogies! My impression in our local dog fights (past and present) is that only a few start because there is just one creator of negative energy; as often as not, it's a clash of personalities between two people who each get on perfectly well with most other people, just not with one another. Factions follow.

I don't quite get the point of the army ad. If they close it, does that mean no more food gets distributed? How have they solved anything? (It's been a long couple of days - you may have to explain things to me in words of very few syllables.)

And Luis? Yes, I know. I still like 'Shredded Readings'.

Hi Hilary

Thanks - I like you choice of compliments.
My take on what the ad was saying - The source of the dispute is being removed to give space until order can be restored.
Think of sharks in a feeding frenzy

Mike

 

[heylise]

... I think, 'More readings? Maybe a 13 hour day instead of 11?' and I am not very happy. I need to go mull what I can do - no point making big commitments that last about a week before I fall over.

No, I don't think it needs anything big from you like readings or so. There are enough readings and enough things going on.
I am totally amazed that you manage with your time as things are now, more would be crazy.

Like Trojan said, two little platters. Mhm.. Maybe make your blog more part of the forum? Now it feels as if you are talking elsewhere while the forum is on its own. But maybe that is no solution at all. And maybe no-one else feels it that way.

I don't know a solution. I don't think more moderation will help one bit. Yes, things will change, but I doubt if that will be for the better.

I must admit that I gave up and left because I was fed up with how things were. The loudmouths and the nitpickers playing boss. Accusing the rest of 'ganging up' when there was a joint effort to bring some balance back. On a one-to-one basis they always win, even if it only means to silence the other. That is what they are loudmouth and nitpicker for.

So - well, I am going to be here and do what I can do. Add my drop to the ocean.

 

[maremaria]

But... the forum is not just mine. Also, if it's just mine, and all my responsibility to keep everyone's behaviour in line, and no-one else is allowed to say anything about anyone, then I'm something like the teacher in the playground: 'No, if little Tommy hits you, or your friend, you must tell teacher and not hit him back!' And everyone else is reduced to the role of little Thomasina, and this all gets phenomenally silly.

.

This phrase contains the answers you are seeking for, I think.
Imo, the forum is yours . They are also some people that come here enjoy to be there and feel that forum its like theirs. But we are just guests. There is a difference.

A teacher in a class I was attending was telling us.” If you want to write a interesting story you have to take a side and make a choice. You can’t walk on two different paths. The reader will get bored and close the book. It’s a matter of self commitment” I found it a very interesting advice and one can adapt it in many matters of ones life.

There are some very interesting comments here , especially the one that give an accurate image of the current situation. They describe the problems , the reasons why the occurred and the solutions also. But first there is a need to clarify whos’ forum is it.

I saw the number of the votes. This says something too.

Watching people that I respect and love to see them around , leaving or not coming too often I was thinking « You have to try a little harder to make a place to share your experience with others. There are hungry people to learn there. Try harder” Couple of days ago I felt to say “ I can understand you, I don’t have the right to have expectations from you” It was not fair for them.

There was a thread in the past, A discussion about Junzi. A thread where the dream team of this forum was there. Many diverse opinions, opinions from people they have spend a lot of time studying Yi. But the way they were discussing was amazing. They respected each other and open to hear opinion different from theirs. Those people don’t need rules and don’t need a moderator . There was a unspoken agreement, as i saw it. Not something complicate, just “lets talk”

 

[Trojina]

Hilary have you asked the Yi about your role in the Shared Readings area...(if we are talking about shared readings that is, there seem to be numerous threads about moderation somehow) I think total abandonment by you of it has not really felt like a good thing. Hard to say exactly why that should be, I suppose it has this air of neglect, abandonment, like a derelict building....does it need a bit of 37.4 ?...or maybe 37.6. If its not important enough to spend a little time there then maybe you should close it, if you don't like it there maybe you could think about why, that would answer you own question of how it might be a warmer place.

Maybe it doesn't need a big sacrifice, maybe two bowls of rice, ..maybe the Yi will tell you, you must already have thought of asking...

I guess you can't afford to give time to a free forum is the bottom line, but then don't you have to figure if the place is not worth you going to is it worth you having it at all..does it matter in anyway, is it important ?

Quoting self to remind what i said, i think it comes down to either you having a presence or closing Shared readings altogether. I personally feel it would be better to close it totally, maybe reopen it in another way in a year or two. Having a total break from it would be clarifying i think, as it is it is stale and heavy and completely undignified as someone else here said somewhere.


I think I know in advance that both these suggestions are going to be dismissed. That you will say you don't have the time to be there and neither do you want to close it...,

But you also know making rules,appointing moderators and so on will be time consuming, impractical and in the end just not workable. You know that after days of discussion you will come happily to the conclusion that nothing really needs to change there...and we should feel satisfied our views were considered.....

...but because this whole scenario was played out at great length 2 years ago i don't think it will work this time, and also seems the polls show people generally do want more moderation ? So if people want more moderation and you have limited time and really as it is you are the only person in a position to moderate, then isn't it practical to limit the areas of forum you need to moderate.

If people really want the facility of discussing their own personal readings with the forum they can pay for it and join Change Circle which is moderated anyway, and where you are more present anyway. This also solves the problem of those 'querents' in the public area who never give feedback on readings, who just ask question after question, who absorb alot of time and energy from others and canmake the whole process ever so slightly demoralising. I mean we accept we often won't get feedback, but it can make it all feel a bit futile.

A public Shared Readings area could be reopened after some time as i say but i think after a break the old patterns there may dissolve naturally...I'm thinking of it as a bit like leaving a field fallow for a year or two so that it is refreshed.

Alternatively as i may have suggested before why not charge a really small fee for everyone to use the forum at all. That would probably change the nature of Shared Readings quite alot, although I'm not so sure if thats a good idea........hmm anyway if left free people can still get a taste of the I Ching by visiting Exploring Divination. If they want personal attention to a reading by other forum members they have more incentive to join Change Circle don't they ? This can generate a little more income for you leaving you more general energy /resource to moderate if necessary.

Anyway still wondering what the Yi says to you about the Shared Readings area and your role in it...I'm really curious about that so if you do ask and care to share that would be interesting


Re the moderation angle being only from you its likely that you get the wrong impression that people think you unfair or think you don't do a good job of it. I think on the whole (or should I speak only for myself ) most people trust you to moderate fairly. I think you always have. Maybe you don't need to worry about the moderation aspect so much, just consider how much presence you have in the place, that in itself, as I think Lise said, is a kind of natural/organic type of moderation. That is a compliment Hilary, lol, whilst you think being in the background is your way actually you really have quite alot of influence simply in your prescence....hey maybe thats why the school bullies picked on you in the first place, they felt threatened !

 

[hilary]

Hi Hilary

Thanks - I like you choice of compliments.
My take on what the ad was saying - The source of the dispute is being removed to give space until order can be restored.
Think of sharks in a feeding frenzy

Mike

Like Trojan is suggesting, shut down 'Shared Readings' for a while?

Funnily enough, I had already thought - when I know what to change here, I'll close the forum for a day to make a big, clear announcement about that. So we have a big, clear new start. Maybe two days, even.

No, I don't think it needs anything big from you like readings or so.

(Phew. Though it wouldn't hurt if I put my oar in now and then, would it?)

Maybe make your blog more part of the forum? Now it feels as if you are talking elsewhere while the forum is on its own. But maybe that is no solution at all. And maybe no-one else feels it that way.

Well, at the moment there is no blog, either. But that has to change, and there is a good ready-made way of integrating blog and forum automatically, getting what I write to the blog also posted as a thread.

I don't know a solution. I don't think more moderation will help one bit. Yes, things will change, but I doubt if that will be for the better.

I must admit that I gave up and left because I was fed up with how things were. The loudmouths and the nitpickers playing boss. Accusing the rest of 'ganging up' when there was a joint effort to bring some balance back. On a one-to-one basis they always win, even if it only means to silence the other. That is what they are loudmouth and nitpicker for.

So - well, I am going to be here and do what I can do. Add my drop to the ocean.

Thank you.

About individual vv group... there are different ways of experiencing that.

Is a group trying to save the forum, trying to bring balance back by counteracting a difficult individual? Or are they reinforcing their sense of belonging safely in a group by joining in an attack on the one who doesn't belong?

It may be very obvious to the group that they and their good friends are not bullies and would never dream of ganging up on anyone - but however right they are about that, it doesn't stop the individual from having the experience of being bullied (especially if that experience is familiar to them anyway), and reacting accordingly. (And not everyone has my 'disappear' instinct!)

For instance -

On a one-to-one basis they always win, even if it only means to silence the other.

- is a weird reflection of a theory I came up with at school: on a one-to-one basis, no-one can bully me, they can only have ordinary conversations like anyone else has. What a wonderful relief! But I need to keep an eye open for their followers: if the group joins them, it all changes. (Conversely, if I have even one friend alongside me, they can't bully me, and they melt away.)

Is the reflection relevant? It will be very obvious to most people that this is all nonsense and has nothing to do with the reality. Depends which mirror you look (or live) in - I see through group-eyes here, mostly, but I know the other view.

Obviously this kind of thing does not get solved by more moderation, or a 'no flaming' rule. Nor do lots of other complicated and interesting dynamics that go on without anyone making an overt 'attack' you could point to. The only thing that can help with all this is the wonderful self-moderating forum.

But there are less-subtle things where moderation can help, if only to keep things from escalating into a big fight between factions that has no content at all, only 'you hurt my friend, I hurt you worse.'

This phrase contains the answers you are seeking for, I think.
Imo, the forum is yours . They are also some people that come here enjoy to be there and feel that forum its like theirs. But we are just guests. There is a difference.

Mm. Depends what you mean by 'the forum'. I created and pay for the website, I get to take the decisions, but I didn't write the archives. Whose party is it, if the guests cooked 99.5% of the food? There is certainly a difference, but 'ownership' is spread widely - and that's a good thing. If it's yours, you take care of it.

I saw the number of the votes. This says something too.

Yes, doesn't it? On both threads.

Quoting self to remind what i said, i think it comes down to either you having a presence or closing Shared readings altogether. I personally feel it would be better to close it totally, maybe reopen it in another way in a year or two. Having a total break from it would be clarifying i think, as it is it is stale and heavy and completely undignified as someone else here said somewhere.

I think I know in advance that both these suggestions are going to be dismissed. That you will say you don't have the time to be there and neither do you want to close it...,

Maybe those aren't the only two possibilities.

Yes, I do need to be present. The guests (to borrow from Maria) don't vandalise their host's house... but if they haven't seen her for years, and have maybe only heard rumours that she even exists, then they will probably behave differently.

Maybe a third way would be to have moderators? Maybe one or two, maybe thirty.

But you also know making rules,appointing moderators and so on will be time consuming, impractical and in the end just not workable. You know that after days of discussion you will come happily to the conclusion that nothing really needs to change there...and we should feel placated our views were considered.....

What would you like me to do, implement every single suggestion everyone makes? So the forum will be both strictly moderated and also not moderated at all, transformed completely and left just as it is, but at least I have pleased all the people all the time?

I don't know, should I try to please all the people all the time? What does everyone think?

Alternatively I could ask for ideas, listen to them all, and then make my mind up about what to do.

... seems the polls show people generally do want more moderation ? So if people want more moderation and you have limited time and really as it is you are the only person in a position to moderate, then isn't it practical to limit the areas of forum you need to moderate.

This is a bit of a hexagram 60 situation, I think: finding out what works as I go along. Hopefully the extra moderation required will settle down and only take a manageable amount of time. If I find I can't keep up, then either less moderation is done, or more people do it. But if you think about how this forum works most of the time, it doesn't actually need someone hovering over it constantly with their finger on the 'delete' key.

If people really want the facility of discussing their own personal readings with the forum they can pay for it and join Change Circle which is moderated anyway, and where you are more present anyway. This also solves the problem of those 'querents' in the public area who never give feedback on readings, who just ask question after question, who absorb alot of time and energy from others and canmake the whole process ever so slightly demoralising. I mean we accept we often won't get feedback, but it can make it all feel a bit futile.

A public Shared Readings area could be reopened after some time as i say but i think after a break the old patterns there may dissolve naturally...I'm thinking of it as a bit like leaving a field fallow for a year or two so that it is refreshed.

Alternatively as i may have suggested before why not charge a really small fee for everyone to use the forum at all. That would probably change the nature of Shared Readings quite alot, although I'm not so sure if thats a good idea......hmm anyway if left free people canstill get a taste of the I Ching iby visiting Exploring Divination, if they want personal attention to a reading they have more incnetive to join Change Circle don't they ?

That's an admirably radical idea. You can imagine the poll results for 'Close Shared Readings? Yes/ No' - of course.

In theory, Shared Readings is where people who are just getting started with this site and probably with the whole idea of the I Ching can see what it's really about - practical help that makes a real difference. It's important to me to have something like that visible, with no payment barrier in the way.

In practice, one of the biggest reasons why I'm not happy with the forum at present is that I don't feel that Shared Readings does a very good job of showing what it's really about.

( "Well, then, Hilary, if you have a way that's so much better (you self-righteous little ***), why don't you go demonstrate it instead of sitting round pontificating?"
(*whining*) "But I don't have time!"
)

So yes... easy to sum up the problems, not so easy to come up with solutions. Shutting it down and replacing it with Reading Circle is certainly one - and in lots of ways it would work, as people generally behave very differently indeed in paid forums. But the words 'baby' and 'bathwater' come to mind. I'd like to find an alternative...

Willowfox, or anyone else who frequents the Aeclectic Tarot forum - I see they have both a public section for free readings and subscription-only reading sections. What's the difference between the two, and how does that work? Does it depend on Solandia's presence giving (or somehow 'supervising') readings in the free section? If not, why not?

 

[pakua]

Is a group trying to save the forum, trying to bring balance back by counteracting a difficult individual? Or are they reinforcing their sense of belonging safely in a group by joining in an attack on the one who doesn't belong?

I have noticed a number of times occurring here, that whenever there's someone who views Yi a little differently, or practises Yi a little differently, others "gang up" on that person. Usually in the end, they leave. Unfortunately.

They will deny it of course, but anyone who's interested in group dynamics and group interplay can see it. Some of it is subtle, some more obvious.

Seems to be a natural part of the human condition, but I would have expected more self awareness here, among folks who are interested in "spiritual" things, and especially where there's such a helpful tool available.

 

[meng]

So if two or more people agree that someone is a source of consistent discontent and trouble, that constitutes a gang up? That's pretty ridiculous, and an entirely unfair assumption. Can't the individuals simply share the same point of view without it being construed as some sort of conspiracy theory?

I find it interesting that two individuals would rather see Shared Readings shut down completely than for it to go on in a way they're not comfortable with. Sounds like vengeful sour grapes to me: If I can't have it my way, no one will have it. Why don't you just not go there if you don't like it?

 

[Sparhawk]

Maybe a third way would be to have moderators? Maybe one or two, maybe thirty.

May I point the obvious? You/Clarity are not in 3.1 anymore... That train left the station a long time ago. Unless you start cloning yourself nobody, specially not someone like me (that's been here for what?, 8 years or so?), will start taking nudges from a third party with a different attitude as yours. For example, I know very well I couldn't be a moderator here because, well..., I just don't have the patience to deal fairly with others in a sandbox that doesn't belong to me. Knowing oneself in small personality treats as that one, is a big step to knowing others... Remember the "firefighters" in Fahrenheit 451: they didn't exactly put out fires...

In theory, Shared Readings is where people who are just getting started with this site and probably with the whole idea of the I Ching can see what it's really about - practical help that makes a real difference. It's important to me to have something like that visible, with no payment barrier in the way.

Ghastly, isn't it? I certainly hope not and that most readers have a more discriminating mind to figure that out...

 

[Trojina]

I find it interesting that two individuals would rather see Shared Readings shut down completely than for it to go on in a way they're not comfortable with. Sounds like vengeful sour grapes to me: If I can't have it my way, no one will have it. Why don't you just not go there if you don't like it?

For goodness sake we are being asked for our thoughts, our thoughts are what we are giving. These aren't demands. I don't care if it isn't shut down, but i am giving my personal opinion about it and its not sour grapes, if anyone is sour its you. I mean whats for me to have sour grapes about, nothing has been taken away from me, I don't feel I have been deprived of anything. I thought Hilary is just asking what people think so i am telling her and if she and the rest of the forum think my suggestions are really bad ones I'm fine with that, i really am.

You must ascribe a huge amount of personal power to me if you think that my voicing a preference carries so much weight . I know you'd prefer if i did not speak at all but thats not going to happen


Rather than turn this thread into another nasty fight why don't you just give your ideas rather than attack mine and others. Can't you see you are doing precisely what you accuse me of doing elsewhere