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03.0, Tun2 or Zhun1

bradford_h

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This edition of Answers discusses the two sets of meanings for this Gua.
Karlgren and others group the sets by how the character is pronounced, Tun2 for the military Rally or Muster, Zhun1 for Difficuty and Sprouting.
Both pronunciations and sets of meanings may be as old as the Zhouyi.
It would also not be the only time the Yi authors incorporated such an ambiguity into the work to stretch our narrow little minds.
 
H

hmesker

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Hi Bradford,

Actually, when I look at the meaning of tun/zhun in early literature, I never find that it means 'difficulties'. It always seems to refer to stationing troops or similar military activities. I don't see why it should have a different meaning in the Yi. The meaning 'difficulties' seems to be a later addition.

I might be mistaken, after all I do not have all the necessary sources to check my findings. But the meaning 'stationing troops' goes fine with the sentence in line 2, 4 and 6, 'riding horses in squads', which has also to do with warfare.

I'll see if I can translate my article in English, it will show more of my thoughts on this matter.

Best,

Harmen.
 

hilary

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Thanks, both of you! Always good to bring some experts out.


Harmen, I hope you do translate the article - and as much of the rest of your website as you like. It looks fascinating and is all almost-but-not-quite accessible to a reader of German - frustration!! I've an idea Babelfish may not quite do it justice...

I thought the team of horses was for courtship? Unless the whole garrison are out looking for marriage?
 

bradford_h

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Hi Harmen-
Glad you're still with us!
My source for the antiquity of the "difficult" gloss for Zhun1 was Axel Schuessler, Dictionary of Early Zhou Chinese.
b
 
H

hmesker

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Hi Hilary,

Thanks for the nice comments about my site. But it is impossible to translate it all into English. Besides that, it is not fun to do. I spent three hours translating the article about hexagram 3 - argh! Translating is a cumbersome job.

I think it was not unusual that a king sent a whole army to the family of his soon-to-be wife (line 4), but also bandits were able to force a marriage with such impressive show of force (line 2, translating 'fei kou' as 'bandits invade'). At least, that's my interpretation.

Bradford,

For a long time I was in doubt whether to buy Schuessler or not. But now I have the Hanyu Da Zidian, Hanyu Da Cidian, Wangli Guhanyu Zidian, Jiaguwen Zidian, Mathews, Wieger, Karlgren's GSR, F-E Chinese-English Dictionary, 'The Written Word in Ancient China' by James C.H. Hsu; and I think, do I really need Schuessler? In other words, I am still in doubt.

My 'claim' that the 'tun/zhun' meaning 'difficulties' is a relatively young meaning, comes from the Hanyu Da Zidian. According to Wilkinson ('Chinese History - a manual') the HYDZD cites the first occurence of a meaning of a character. With 'zhun' meaning 'difficulties', the HYDZD cites the Yi, with commentary of Kong Ying-da, who says that it means 'difficulties'. But if I'm correct Kong Ying-da lived from 574 to 648. If thát is the first reference the HYDZD can give, then this is quite some time after the composition of the Yi.
But in books like the Guanzi, Zhuangzi and Zhuozhuan, 'tun/zhun' is used with military meanings. That makes me confident that a military meaning in hexagram 3 would not be so strange.

But when it comes to it I am just a guy who looks up things in dictionaries. My knowledge of archaic Chinese is almost non-existent, which makes me wonder if I have any right to say anything about it. Nevertheless, I very much ike scrutinizing these characters in the Yi.

I have translated the article about hexagram 3 and placed it in a new category on my site. It can be found here:

http://itcn.nl/index.php?option=content&task=category&sectionid=2&id=49&Itemid=3

More articles will hopefully be added soon.

Best wishes,

Harmen.
 

bradford_h

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Hi Harmen
Schuessler's expensive, but he does give his sources and the contexts in which the words occur so you can test alternative glosses.
The work is by no means complete. Maybe only 2/3 of the Zhouyi's vocabulary. He only gives words that he can find examples of.
Thanks for the list- there's two books I don't have.
 

gene

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Yes, the symbolism of marriage is in the hexagram. It is important not to try to limit these hexagrams to one meaning. They are multidimensional. The underlying principles in the book, "The Art of War" apply as well to the art of marriage. There is a reason that we call it "the war between the sexes." Before soldiers can undertake a difficult task they must first encamp themselves, and set up a base of operations. From there they gather information about the enemy in order to know the best way to attack. The beginnings are difficult because there is a great deal of information and strategy to be sorted through and undertaken. Greg Whincup calls this hexagram, "Gathering support," which is a necessity in any undertaking. In the early part of the undertaking, "it is favorable to appoint officers." First things must be done first. In the second line we have the story of the "lady who refuses to be wed." Often in a war situation it is essential that we find who we can make alliances with. Who is with us or who is for us. Likewise, when courting, it is necessary to give the partner time to make a decision, to get to know us to know if we, and they are or are not a suitable partner. In line four, the alliance is accomplished. Much could be said about the other lines, but the important issue here is that the I Ching can be discussing things on many different levels at the same time. Hexagram 54 can also in one respect be looked upon as an attempt at an alliance between two different groups.

Gene
 
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hmesker

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<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

It is important not to try to limit these hexagrams to one meaning.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
But that is exactly what I am trying to do: trying to find the one and only meaning the author(s) could have meant when they wrote the Yi. It is easy to find several meanings in a hexagram. It is far more difficult to focus on one meaning, yet I believe this is necessary if you want to find the true meaning of the Yi, the meaning the book had when it was written.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

the important issue here is that the I Ching can be discussing things on many different levels at the same time.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure, but that is mostly done by interpretation. What I want to do is translate. But I liked your view about hexagram 3 and the way you mixed several meanings.

Best,

Harmen.
 
H

hmesker

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<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Schuessler's expensive, but he does give his sources and the contexts in which the words occur so you can test alternative glosses.
The work is by no means complete. Maybe only 2/3 of the Zhouyi's vocabulary. He only gives words that he can find examples of.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the info, Bradford. Considering this I don't thank it will really be an addition to my other books.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Thanks for the list- there's two books I don't have.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let me know if you need ISBN etc., if you want to order them.

Best,

Harmen.
 

bradford_h

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This issue of broad vs narrow glosses for the words of the Zhouyi is one in which there seems to be little room for middle ground or compromise, and it divides modern scholarship in a way that may take centuries or some seriously huge new archaeological finds to resolve.
I've taken a good 24 pages in my intro to lay out the arguments for the side I've taken (against the modernist scholars and context critics and for broader glosses and deliberate ambiguities).
All I can say is, may the best Jia prevail. And may we toast that final resolution in amity in some distant future incarnations.
 

heylise

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I am 'of the wide meaning', but I also appreciate very much what Harmen does. Because this wide meaning gets its solid base from it.
And my personal experience is, that a concrete narrow meaning can often trigger one's intuition more than a wide range of meanings, which are all 'named'. Sometimes finding one's own road can bring big understanding.

An example: hex.55 as garrison gives me the opportunity to find meanings like organizing action, finding allies, etc. None of them is among the 'wide' meanings.

So I am maybe not in between, but I sure like both sides.

LiSe
 
C

candid

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I am of the ?wide funneling down into narrow? persuasion. Meanings can become so wide and liberal you can make just about anything say anything. But if the meaning is too strict and narrow it can mislead someone down an entirely wrong path.

I'm grateful for those like Brad who are literal, and who demand historical accuracy to form his own conclusions of Yi's meanings. I'm skeptical of too much elasticity.

I try to remain open to the first and immediate impressions that strike me in a given reading. Even after tearing them apart with reasoning they still generally are the clearest and most obvious answers.

It?s about context. We can make any shoe fit any foot at any given time if we shrink or stretch it enough. The trick is finding the fit that?s most natural. Yi?s definitive answer provides that specifically.
 

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