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13.6 is about a 'enlightened' relationship?

Samgirl

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I was just reading Nigel Richmond's taken on this line.

This is what he says about 13.6:
Relationship has its own cycle of change; as we begin to relate it is from a position of separate identity, so the relationship is an area of shared experience, a resonance, and out of this again come acceptance of the distance or separateness of the other in which contact and contest are less important. This third stage is symbolized here as we accept the stillness of the emerging life force of the Tao (the lack of contact between polarities).

The Chinese image: Relationship. Distance. Absence of desire. No regret.

This is not a needy or desiring relationship so there will be no regret on it.

When I was reading this line it came to my mind what several spiritual teachers talk about enlightened relationships: where the connection is not based on ego's need but it is just an expression of universal love, and that the relationship is created when this universal love is intensified somehow, it is enhanced by this particular situation or person.

I was reading other's views on this line and Wilhelm, for example, talks about lack of warm on one heart. I was reading on Bradford's about "goals that have not been yet achieved". Tsung Hwa takes it as "gathering with people where we don't have too much in common". LiSe talks about being who we really are and recognizing the other how they really are, without imposing our standards.

All these comments have a common point but they have also some differences. I was wondering what are your views on this.
 

tuckchang

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Hi ! Dear Samgirl,

I would like to share my understanding as follows:

Every hexagram is one specific era; the six lines are six different time-spaces in an era. We can get an overview and thorough understanding if we can see six lines together.

According to most of Chinese I Ching writings, Tong Ren signifies ‘to put aside differences and seek common ground, to make friends and get along well with others’. Its ideal is to build a peaceful word; however its line texts are teeming with frictions and possible conflicts. Although Chow Yi was written and accomplished in the era of turmoil, it also is a mirror of our word.

Line 2 is the only feminine line in the hexagram, the representative line and symbolic of fellowship; all the other 5 masculine lines intend to possess it. However line 2 correlates with line 5 and it is firmly engaged with line 5; consequently this creates animosity.

Line 3 stays on the top of line 2 and is entitled to occupy line 2; however line 2 is engaged with line 5. Line 3 stands in the way that line 2 goes upward to line 5, and intends to intercept the fellowship, but as line 5 is the masculine axle center (i.e. rigidity and possessing the dominant power) at the king’s position, it dares not take action.

Line 4 has no access to line 2 but rather lives in a world of the conflict between lines 5 and 3. Line 4 is at the position full of fear as it is next to the king; it had better remain still and vigilant like maintaining a lookout and defensive post on the city wall.

Crying first but laughing later; the vast army wins the battle and manages to join forces. After experiencing all conflicts and difficulties, line 5 finally succeeds in battling and meeting line 2.

Line 6 doesn’t reach the countryside – the ideal of Tong Ren, but the suburbs; no regret; it is because it stays away from the center of the conflict. Remarks: the hexagram text is Tong Ren (the fellowship) in the countryside, smooth progress ……. i.e. the fellowship reaches far into the countryside, signifying that the friends of the same aspirations exist everywhere. Line 6 reaches the suburb; the suburb is the area outside of the town (i.e. the center) but not as far as the countryside; line 6 arrives at the end of the hexagram and its aspiration has not been realized yet; it should be regretful; however, it stays away from the conflict......

Line 1 stays beneath line 2 and moves to line 2. Who will fault it? At the beginning phase of a hexagram, it is difficult to know what will happen later in this hexagram. Line 6 feels no regretful after it realizes all these.

If you are still confused, just take the countryside as the goal, the suburb: one step behind the goal and it is a place away from town center, and the town: the center (of the conflict).

Best regards
Tuck :bows:
 

Samgirl

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Thank you so much for this explanation. Let's see if I understand it well...

If you are still confused, just take the countryside as the goal, the suburb: one step behind the goal and it is a place away from town center, and the town: the center (of the conflict).

Line 6 here just go that far, it doesn't go all the way, so it doesn't reach the goal. The point that it is not regretful is because as it does not reach the goal, avoids conflict.

In my previous assumption, I was wondering if this line was referring to an 'enlightened relationship'. Well, by looking at this image it also clarifies me what Richmond's talk about. perhaps it is that line 6 relates from an enlightened perspective, but differently of what I first though. Line 6 -unlike the other lines- accepts its position as is, without resistance.
 

tuckchang

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Except for Wilhelms’s translation, I have no experience with the others’. There are also many translations or explanations available in Chinese but most of annotation of Hexagram 13 is like what I said, in simple words: to build fellowship. I have never heard of ‘relationship’. However, the significance of the line is deducted and analyzed in accordance with the line relationship, we might say that at the end line 6 is enlightened that even though the goal of hexagram 13 can’t be completely achieved, one shall not feel regretful as one can live without conflict.

Regards
Tuck
 
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meng

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I think Tuck's description is great.

I wouldn't call 13.6 an enlightened relationship, but rather a cool and polite association, lacking passion, candor and personal satisfaction. To me it feels more like a humane duty and a personal compromise than a pleasurable relationship.

My idea of an enlightened relationship is 61.2, and the whole of 11.
 

rosada

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It may also be useful to remember that the final line of the hexagram describes conditions beyond the main theme of the hexagram. Thus the sixth line of hex.13 describes what happens AFTER the close intimacy of Fellowship. The first line of the following hexagram also can be useful for understanding the 6th line. Hex.14.1 talks about having no contact with that which is harmful. So we see the close One for All and All for One feeling of 13 evolving into more discerning choices with 14.
 
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Samgirl

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Except for Wilhelms’s translation, I have no experience with the others’. There are also many translations or explanations available in Chinese but most of annotation of Hexagram 13 is like what I said, in simple words: to build fellowship. I have never heard of ‘relationship’. However, the significance of the line is deducted and analyzed in accordance with the line relationship, we might say that at the end line 6 is enlightened that even though the goal of hexagram 13 can’t be completely achieved, one shall not feel regretful as one can live without conflict.

Regards
Tuck

Thank you so much, Tuck for this explanation. I used the word 'relationship' thinking that a fellowship is based on how people relate to each other. I've learned a lot here, thanks!
 

Samgirl

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I think Tuck's description is great.

I wouldn't call 13.6 an enlightened relationship, but rather a cool and polite association, lacking passion, candor and personal satisfaction. To me it feels more like a humane duty and a personal compromise than a pleasurable relationship.

My idea of an enlightened relationship is 61.2, and the whole of 11.

61.2 is a beautiful line. You're explanation is clear as well. Thank you!
 

Samgirl

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It may also be useful to remember that the final line of the hexagram describes conditions beyond the main theme of the hexagram. Thus the sixth line of hex.13 describes what happens AFTER the close intimacy of Fellowship. The first line of the following hexagram also can be useful for understanding the 6th line. Hex.14.1 talks about having no contact with that which is harmful. So we see the close One for All and All for One feeling of 13 evolving into more discerning choices with 14.

Interesting take! Thank you.
 

rosada

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The theme of group belonging vs. individuality is repeated throughout the I Ching:

7.Our team vs. 8. The other team.

13. The Group vs. 15. The Individual.

22. My friends vs. 24. (closing the door to..) Outsiders.

37. My family vs. 38. Sibling rivalry.

45. The whole world vs. 47. Me all alone.

Until finally..
48. Everyone working together allows...

49. Individual differences to be honored.
 
M

meng

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The theme of group belonging vs. individuality is repeated throughout the I Ching:

7.Our team vs. 8. The other team.

13. The Group vs. 15. The Individual.

22. My friends vs. 24. (closing the door to..) Outsiders.

37. My family vs. 38. Sibling rivalry.

45. The whole world vs. 47. Me all alone.

Until finally..
48. Everyone working together allows...

49. Individual differences to be honored.

Are these your own impressions or can you source this information? You seem to state them as fact.
 

rosada

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..uh, my own impressions - is there a better definition of "fact"?:eek:
 
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meng

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Ok, thanks. Maybe fact is too factual a word. Empirical data?
 

heylise

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Lines can have many meanings for their place. The sequence is just one of them. It depends a lot on the question. If you ask for 'when' then you can interpret them as sooner or later, beginning or end, from 1 to 6. But if your question has nothing to do with time, they have other meanings.

More ways of interpreting them HERE

LiSe
 

rosada

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Thank you so much for joining the discussion at this point, HeyLise! Just as Meng was asking me for some more tangible manifestation of my Group/Individual theories, you popped in creating an actual demonstration of how groups and individuals are formed and evolve. To try to be more specific:
Meng and I are discussing (5) ideas. I am uncertain if he is encouraging me or challenging me, so I pause (5) before answering. I review our past interactions to recognize if we have any Past that might create major obstacles (6). I decided that AT THIS POINT IN OUR CONNECTION, none of the misalignments we've had in the past are significant enough to prevent being able to team together now (7). So I return to the thread not feeling opposed, but feeling meng is genuinely encouraging me to develop my thinking .I no sooner have this awareness and return to the thread than I see Lise has joined the discussion with a whole new set of ideas. It's like 7. The Army - or two people- meng and I- on the same wave length - will connect with 8. Union - someone coming from a different direction i.e. LiSe.
Now the question is, how to connect? It is not as easy as 1+1+2 (two dimensions can always join at a crosspoint) to connect 2+1 = 3 (a third dimension?). 9. Gives the answer, accentuate the ways in which we are alike, outward appearance can help people to fit in. 10. Maybe it's not a deep perfect fit, but the presence of these 2/3 opposing energies can be tolerated (I think of a corner of a house where three plains meet) well enough to feel at 11. Peace. When people feel at Peace they don't feel they have to control and monitor everything. They feel they can 12. Step back and let people talk and get to know each other and feel we're all 14. Friends.

So the way for an Army(7) to connect with another Army(8) is to get to know each other and become Friends.

Am seeing 13. Friends as representing a higher level of group consciousness than 7. Army. Hmm, now seeing that "Higher Level of Consciousness" can be defined as a belief system that can include a greater number of consciousnesses. An army can include only those who are on one side, Friends can include the whole world.
So why have armies at all? Perhaps 7.Army can teach the divine art of comradeship, once having learned how to be a good comrade, then one can evolve to a higher level of connection, where rather than differences having to be abolished - everyone must believe the same thing in an Army - they are enjoyed and celebrated in Friendship.

Anyway this has all got me thinking about how ideas happen and how they build, so thanks Sam for starting this thread and all the participants that kept it evolving and special thanks to meng and Lise.
 
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M

meng

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Rosada

"My life is my data."

I thought that was an interesting answer. I had nothing else to say. I don't disagree at all with the statement. The question arises when communicating an experience to someone else, someone who is just learning, as an established conclusion of the meaning of a hexagram or line. But you answered my question honestly, and I thanked you.
 

rosada

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Yes, meng, absolutely. You did thank me. Very gracious of you because it was a rather flipant answer, :bows: .So since I also understood your point in that my earlier response hadn't given any proof, I was returning to flesh out my argument, to try to make it more clear what I was driving at in saying the I Ching has a lot to say about groups and individuality.

The point I think I'm trying to make, or maybe just the idea I'm playing around with, is that there are several hexagrams directly refering to groups like 7,13,22,37,45,48 and they seem to form a sequence that evolves from an elementary form of unity - an army which will take any warm body willing to follow the leader - to Friendship, to Family, to Community, the Family of Man. Each sort of group requires a deeper or more refined sense of agreement than the one before. Ultimately the community works together and creates 48. The Well, something no individual could have created on their own, and yet this group enterprise awakens a greater sense of individuality and self worth in each of the members than one would have without being a member of the group.

Anyway, just a pattern I think I see here, nothing I've read about from any outside source, but I do see it holding true in my own life. We start out wanting to belong and willing to team up with others even when we don't know them too deeply, but as time goes by we find we want relationships that are more refined, that cause us to look deeper into ourselves. We aren't satisfied with superficial connections and we start to (14) discriminate and ultimately we find that if we are true to ourselves, we do find a way to align more subtly, more effectively with others, and the result can be great and worthwhile achievements, and greater self knowing.
 
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