17,4 to 3 Will he give up?

[usilser]

Dear Members of the forum,
I need your help for one more time. My relationship with my partner is still so unstable. I feel lonely, I need to be patient but I can't. I try to avoid any conflict and I can't. After our last argument he said that he is getting tired.
So my question was if he will give up.
Line 4 of hexagram 17 makes me feel that it is a warning that if I persevere to wrong behavior it will lead to chaos hexagram 3. I can't trust him and I feel insecure and it leads to chaos between us.

I searched on the forum and I read a lot of interpretations of the line. Any help with that?

 

[radiofreewill]

Hi usilser,

"Will he give up?"
17.4 to 3 ~ Now is the time to opt-out of 'bad' following.

I'm so sorry to hear that your last cast is playing out right before your eyes, tears and all?

From the Daniel Young i-Ching:

17. Following

Start with an unselfish offering. Profit from the forecast. No problem.

4. Following, possessing and grabbing lead to a forecast of misfortune.
​

Here's my read: He's the drowning swimmer and you are the lifeguard. You can a) swim out to him and struggle with him, or b) throw him a flotation device with a line on it, which is anchored to dry land? What would you do?

Currently, you seem to be emotionally entangled with your man in such a way that your concern for him is felt as unwanted pressure on his part, causing him to become even more remote and hurtful. Cyclically repeated this traces out the negative spiral of failing adaptation.

That is 'bad' following heading towards dissolution.


3. Early Growth

To grow in a responsible way and in a spirit of sacrifice makes the forecast good. It is not the time for big goals. Cultivating the present position is best.
​

If you are going to change the game, then you'll have to do something new? My advice is to stabilize yourself by prioritizing good self-care (all the low-end Maslow's) and...

...making it your practice to stay Still instead of Entangled ~ not depleting your energy, instead of getting agitated and leaking like a sieve.

So, instead of swimming out to him to join him in his emotionally unbalanced state, you throw him the flotation device of your own Stability, which is anchored to solid ground in the present moment ~ and not his dark place...

...and then patiently give him a chance to make his own choice ~ wilful suffering through inaction, or freedom from suffering by taking action to help himself?

This is new, and like all new things, it's difficult at the beginning...

...but, it could save your relationship?

It will certainly save you.

I hope this helps!

 

[Ichingtarot]

Usilser, what would he be "giving up"? 17.4 shows a disconnect between you and your partner. He has a different motive in his allegiance to you And he is benefitting. Line 4 asks you to look sideways and remember what you want in the relationship. Hex 3 Difficult beginnings, indicates work is needed to align goals.

 

[usilser]

Thank you radiofreewill for your interpretation. Yes, I am really emotionally entangled and it gets it on my nerves as it is something I am trying to avoid and I always repeat the same mistake.
The thing is I have a lot of negative thoughts about our relationship. You see it is our second chance.

Ichingtarot we are indeed 2 different personalities and each one behaves differently to the other. He is the person who believes that whatever is meant to be will happen. I am the person who believes that you have to move if you want something to happen. I am worried for the future. Anyway, for him the situation between us is just fine. He feels very well. I need more.

I have a lot of fears and insecurities about our relationship and this makes me overreacting.
I made a second question: How will I overcome my fears and insecurities about our relationship?
Hex. 26 with lines 1 and 4 to hex. 50 I should of course control my emotions. There is danger because I can't control them. So, I must stop any action and control myself now that is still the beginning of our relationship. I must change the way that I react as hex. 50 is about transformation. Interesting reading.

 

[diamanda]

Will he give up? 17.4 > 3
He is interested in having a wide circle of flatterers and living in chaos.
So as Ichingtarot said, there's nothing to give up.

How will I overcome my fears and insecurities about our relationship? 26.1.4 > 50
The situation is dangerous, so stop.
Find someone who wants to live with you.
Then get pregnant.
He said he doesn't want any of these things, so you're just wasting precious time. Once you have a commitment with someone, you won't feel fear and insecurity. Your current fear and insecurity are very correct as they are based on facts.

 

[usilser]

Thank you diamanda for your interpretation.
My partner has a lot of friends, he is very sociable. what do you mean he lives in chaos? I don't understand.

I didn't write that he doesn't want to make a family together. What he says is that

he wants to come naturally between us and not be oppressive. Unfortunately, I can't control myself or my emotions, I want something and I want it now. This is one of the reasons that we broke up the first time. I feel that there is danger between us because of me and I am so scared that I will mess it up for one more time. One of my fears is that I will lead him with my behavior to break up with me again. I don't want to be the one who will break up. I love him and I want our relationship to be a stable one, but I want to feel calm and safe.
​

 

[usilser]

Moreover, I am so insecure because we are miles apart. We live in different cities. So, what I hope is that he will ask me to live together.

 

[diamanda]

Moreover, I am so insecure because we are miles apart. We live in different cities. So, what I hope is that he will ask me to live together.

Yes it would be a great first step if you two live together, then there would be hope. Have you discussed this with him?

 

[radiofreewill]

"How will I overcome my fears and insecurities about our relationship?"
26.1.4 to 50 ~ Cultivate controlled power.

From the Daniel Young i-Ching:

26. Controlled Power

Profit from the forecast. No need to eat at home. Good fortune. It is a good time for great undertakings.

1. There is danger ahead. It is best to finish.

4. Regular defensive training is helpful. It is advantageous to have a goal.
​

I think you are seeing your situation clearly: You are in danger of 'over-cooking' your relationship? It's happened before, and you can 'see' it happening, again...

...and, you're not sure you can stop yourself from doing it, anyway?

First, kudos to you for 'knowing' this about yourself!

50. Divine Container

The divine container is the original source of good fortune. It embodies the spirit of sacrifice.
​

So, trouble lies immediately ahead ~ the storm that's brewing is your own need for emotional entanglement in order to coerce your preferred outcome out of your man...which failed miserably the last time? And, you can plainly 'see' that if you do it, again ~ it will wreck you, again, too?

Now, let me ask you ~ Who would bring a cyclone like that into their house?

For a change, imho, if you re-directed one-tenth of the energy you now spend on worry ~ instead, towards practising Stillness of body, mind and speech ~ then that might be enough 'sacrifice' by you to transform your situation?

Dial it back to a simmer...and let his hunger grow?

That's the kind of defensive 'training' you can do for yourself ~ with the goal of cultivating controlled power.

I hope this helps.

All Best!

 

[marybluesky]

Hello again, usilser!

Hex 17, Line 4: " Success is gained by following. But to continue brings misfortune. Going the correct way leads to glory (brightness). How can there be blame?"

It's time to give up on this guy and find your way. It's difficult, but fruitful (Hex 3- Sprouting).

*The Italic parts are cited from Jemes DeKorne website.

 

[sylvia1ching]

So my question was if he will give up.
Line 4 of hexagram 17 makes me feel that it is a warning that if I persevere to wrong behavior it will lead to chaos hexagram 3. I can't trust him and I feel insecure and it leads to chaos between us.

HEX 17: FOLLOWING > HEX 3: DIFFICULTY IN THE BEGINNING

In order for you to create a following..essentially in order to enroll him into you, you get to shift your attitude to be more open to finding a compromise versus being right. Identify what kind of relationship you want with him and act accordingly. Be the source.of how see the two of you in the relationship. What is you vision for the two of you? And then set your intention of how to go about achieving this. You get to shift your entire attitude such that he sees that you are open to creating a loving giving relationship. I'm assuming that's what you want. So if you do not want him to give up you get to be what it takes for him not to give up without compromising what you want or compromising your values.

It should not be that difficult because envisioning the ideal relationship and what it takes to achieve that does not mean changing everything about you it just means being willing to recognize where your faults are and enrolling him in the ideal relationship and finding a compromise for whatever difficulties you having.

The other thing is that maybe you need to give yourself a little room between the two of you so that you can have some time to cool down. Backing off allows each of you to think about what you want. it allows you to come up with a vision of what you want the relationship to look like. So give it a little rest give it a little bit breather does not mean ignoring one another.

Line 4
Line four simply is telling you that you get to let go of your ego. In doing so it allows you to create clarity and with Clarity you're able to identify what is really the problem or whether or not someone being sincere with you or not. It is possible that his intentions may not be true and you need to be aware of that also. Create clarity and sincerity so that you can observe and be present. Do not come in with judgments and preconceived notions. Be open-minded! in this way will you be able to see whether he is giving up and or there is a possibility that you can come back together.

HEX 3: DIFFICULTY IN THE BEGINNING
This hexagram speaks for itself. When you're clear when you're without your ego you are able to see through all the chaos and allow things to come out naturally.

This is a time of growth. This could be your personal growth if he should choose to give up. Or this is time for growth for the two of you.

Either way growth is the result and it will allow you either to prepare for your next relationship or create a better and stronger relationship with him now.

 

[usilser]

It's interesting to read your interpretatations. Thank you all.

I asked if I should talk to him to live together and the answer was 31,3 to 45. I think it is a bad idea and I shouldn't say anything.

 

[sylvia1ching]

It's interesting to read your interpretatations. Thank you all.

I asked if I should talk to him to live together and the answer was 31,3 to 45. I think it is a bad idea and I shouldn't say anything.

usiler

HEX 31.3: WOOING/INFLUENCE > HEX 45: GATHERING TOGETHER

At first glance at the titles the reading appears to be inviting and it suggesting possibility.

TUI (The Joyous Lake/Joyousness) above
KEN (The Standing Still Mountain/hidden stillness) below
Joyousness through Stillness

KEN through the stages life it brings together into a perfect the end and the beginning. Through its quiet and persistent presence is bring to light the energy of TUI joyousness to all things. KEN is silent and still highlighting is in contrast to the energy of joy and gladness in this way KEN influences TUI.

TUI the youngest daughter
KEN the youngest son
This represents "courtship and marriage, the foundation of all social relationships." (Wilhelm, 1997)

THE JUDGEMENT (Wilhelm, 1997)
Influence. Success.
Perseverance furthers.
To take a maiden to wife brings good fortune.

The Judgement suggests to me that through infuence/wooing one can persist in moving forward in the direction of living together. "To take a maiden to wife brings good fortune." I cannot say it any better but the possibility exists.

Mutual attraction between opposites, be it as gender, character... the attraction is there. The Judgement is outlining the characteristics of the idea that attraction between two people is important and must be differentiated between lustful attraction and love attraction.

THE IMAGE (Wilhelm, 1997)
A lake on the mountain:
The image of influence,
Thus the superior man encourages people
to approach him.
By readiness to receive them.

The mountain sits in the lake sunken into the water - like a caldera. Crater Lake, Oregon where you can see the peak of the remaining neck of the volcano that once existed at the location. It is humbled and silent. This image suggests one who is remaining humble and in being humbles allows him TO RECEIVE advice.(Wilhelm, 1997)

LINE 3:
Nine in the third place means:
The influence shows itself in the thighs.
Holds to that which follows it.
To continue is humiliating.

The thighs are where the large muscle group the quadriceps femoris muscles cover the front and sides of the thigh. They are responsible for with any movement which includes the legs like walking, running, squatting, jumping. The idea is that quick movements that results in immediate displacement without delay or hesitation. In context to the heart, a "knee jerk response" can be made without any thought to the situation. The heart cannot controlled by man because it wants what it wants...it has no filter and yearns, wants, loves, hurts etc without much regard to consequences. The one thing that man can control is how the body and mind reacts to the hearts desire.

In your case, it important to contain your desire to be close to your partner because you are responding to the restless heart that is fearing loss. So it important to hold back before you react and THEN RESPOND. There is no need to RUN after your partner if the conditions are such that you wanting to satiate your desire or quiet your fears. The picture in my mind is a person racing about like our hair is on fire...screaming I LOVE YOU. Be aware of your instincts. Notice that your gut maybe communication to you that it may not be a good idea to live together. The mind is using it masterful techniques of communication through the gut because the heart has blown out all of the speaker and it cannot be heard. This message from that little voice may just save you from a big mistake. It sounds to me that you are listening.

HEX 45: GATHERING TOGETHER

TUI : The Joyous Lake above
KUN: The Receptive Earth below

The lake sits upon the earth gathering together things that are alike. The lake is gathering water in the receptive earth. The earth gathers all beings together in its great mass.

THE JUDGEMENT
GATHERING TOGETHER. Success.
The king approaches his temple.
This brings success. Perseverance furthers.
To bring great offerings creates good fortune.
It furthers one to undertake something.

Gathering together of people like family occurs naturally and in contrast government gathers together people in an artificial occurrence. Through the family is strengthened in its allegiance through its connection to the past and through its DNA. The bond between family members cannot be destroyed. The strength of the loyalty of the relationships between family members is founded in a moral force that is shared.

My interpretation of HEX 45 as it relates to you and your partner suggests to me that the connection that would be required of you and him is that one that could not be differentiated from the bond of family. In order to create a family, through living together, is a step that will take more than just a physical location change but one more intimate and visceral. Gathering together must be for the right reasons and founded in devotion (KUN) and joyousness (TUI).

THE IMAGE
Over the earth, the Lake;
The image of GATHERING TOGETHER.
Thus the superior man renews his weapons
In order to meet the unforeseen.

When the is a gathering together of people indiscriminately can cause breakdowns or unexpected problems. You can avoid issue by heightening your awareness and be prepared for what may lie ahead. Whether you decide to go ahead and ask your partner to move in with you or you decide to allow your relationship go and you move on be prepared for some unexpected responses or actions that may not be to your liking.

Be sure