...life can be translucent

Menu

19 changing into 41 - contradiction?

haku

visitor
Joined
Mar 23, 1971
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
as an answer to a question whether it would be a good idea to go to a certain place this weekend, i received 19 - top line changing, hence it transforms into 41. 41 is decrease thus clearly negative, but the topline of 19 says "greathearted approach, good fortune, no blame".

this seems contradictory advice to em... cana nybody comment on this?
 

sugarlobster

visitor
Joined
Jan 6, 1972
Messages
84
Reaction score
0
hi haku,
i have just received the same answer. my question was what would be likely to happen if i got in touch with someone (ongoing off-and-on relationship).
i am equally confused.
it would be great if any of the wise people here could enlighten us...
love,
sugar lobster
 

davidl

visitor
Joined
Oct 31, 1971
Messages
120
Reaction score
0
Hi Haku,
I think the Yi is assuming that, yes, you will go to this place on the weekend. Maybe the answers refer more to what may happen there and how you may best 'handle it'. By the way I dont think 41 is clearly negative. When I receive it, I usually take it as more of a time of 'exhaling', resting, calming, getting ready for the next 'inhale'.

Why are you going there? What do you hope to achieve? I think these questions are more appropriate to get a clearer answer.
 

haku

visitor
Joined
Mar 23, 1971
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
thank you very much for answering. actually, i posted this question last week, it was regarding the weekend that's over already. i ended up not going... not sure whether that was the right decision though, at all. turns out i missed a terrific party. but my ex was there, and that might have hurt me (reason for my hesitating to go...)

funnily enough (or not), i received exactly the same answer (19 changing into 41) one week earlier, when i asked whether it would be a good idea if my ex and i got back together...

i'm still at a loss about it: it could mean that first it would be great to be back together, but taht all together it would not lead to an increase for my life -- but, after all, if i understand it well, 41 could also refer to the situation from which i was asking the question, right, and hence that teh top line of 19 is the final answer, right?

i think that the best thing to do is perhaps to wait a bit and then reframe teh question and ask it again in other words?
 

midaughter

visitor
Joined
May 10, 1971
Messages
392
Reaction score
2
In my own experience, the top line of Hexagram 19 means the influence has approached and now passed you by. I know it sounds funny, but the top in many cases is 'outside' or past the influence. I got the reading when an old lover showed for a few days and left just like that. As Boy George says, 'we come and go.' I don't how that relates to your question, it may not be a responsive reading. Often 19, described as 'the influence which fulfills itself quickly' is something approaching fast and often this hexagram is received when the Sage wishes to alert you to something and does not answer the question. I would ask 'who or what approaches?"
Hexagram 41, while usually unfavorable has one great line - so who knows? Anyway, good fortune is often hidden in misfortune. Thank heavens for that...
 

chrislofting

visitor
Joined
Nov 19, 1971
Messages
394
Reaction score
0
Sunpuerh,

you wrote in part:
>
> Hexagram 41, while usually unfavorable has one great line
> - so who knows? Anyway, good fortune is often hidden in
> misfortune. Thank heavens for that...
>

IMHO your opinion of hex 41 is mistaken. The WB term 'decrease' misses the point totally in that the concept that 41 is representative of is on concentrating, distilling as we distill alchohol etc, as we seek the 'elixar of life'. There are strong elements of alchemy in the I Ching.

Thus 41 reflects both a LITERAL decrease, as when the transformation 'fails' and we end-up with 'waste', as well as a decrease in the form of the creation of something 'pure', 'refined' etc. (in cooking we 'reduce' food which means we let it become more concentrated in flavour by boiling-off liquid ;-))

In the binary sequence 19 and 41 form a PAIR, 19 reflects INTEGRATION and 41 reflects DIFFERENTIATION of a common theme, of reducing highs and lows, of overall integrating.

WITHIN the octet of lake-based hexagrams we have an order of:

19, 41, 60, 61, 54, 38, 58, 10

The left side is more integrating, the right side more differentiating. WITHIN each is the other so WITHIN the realm of integrating is the differentiating (41, 61)

19 is the balanced form of 10 (10 is an exaggeration, focused on hierarchy, 19 attempts to get the 'high' to come down and play ;-)) The trigram forms are 'with self-reflection comes trust in others/another' - dualmindedness. For 10 it is with self-reflection comes singlemindedness - total trust in self ;-)

41 is the more balanced form of 58
60 is the more balanced form of 38
61 is the more balanced form of 54

EVERY hexagram reflects both positive and negative aspects, and so 02 is total devotion but also total darkness, 01 is total light but also burning, destructive in form ;-)

for more on relations of 41 see:

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x100011.html

Chris.
 

anita

visitor
Joined
Feb 19, 1971
Messages
293
Reaction score
1
Hello Sun,

You're talking about something which ahs intrigued me too - Karcher and the Top Line change thread. I think one needs to look at the pair hex - in this case 20 and look at line 1 for a clue. Did you throw this hex before your old lover came in for a short while? In which case it did signal approach although the approach was brief.

Best for your Quest

Anita
 

midaughter

visitor
Joined
May 10, 1971
Messages
392
Reaction score
2
Hi Anita: I am not sure if you mean did I receive hexagram 20 BEfore the lover appeared or 19? (I have never studied Karcher's methods) and Hexagram 19 was received prior to this person's arrival and there were two changing lines, the first changing line I don't quite remember and I received the sixth line in the same reading. So he approached and then quickly was gone again. I have received this reading a few times since, it always seemed to pan out. The sixth seems to mean different things in different hexagrams but since 19 is about movement towards you coming quickly it would make sense that the sixth would mean the influence was now past. (I had before tried the idea the 19 with the top line changing might mean heavenly blessings approaching as the sixth is often called the 'sage or heaven line' In practice that did't seem to be the case. The only other thing I can tell is that when I asked who or what approached it said something about the arrogant young dragon. This is sort of funny but by that time I knew who it was!
 
Y

yellowblue

Guest
Don't know if this will help, and maybe you have read this, but the WB translation says this regarding 19.6:
Book III
"At first it might be assumed tht the six at the top, which has no relationship of correspondence, would be drawing away from the other lines. But in the time of approach its direction is inward, thatis, downward, so that it remains in relatio with the other lines of the hexagram"

and also

Book I
"A sage how has put the world behind him and who in spirit has already withdrawn from life may, under certain circumstances, decide to return once more to the here and now and to approach othe men. This means great good fortune for the men whom he teaches and helps. Anf for him this greathearted humbling of himself is blameless."

Deb
 

midaughter

visitor
Joined
May 10, 1971
Messages
392
Reaction score
2
Dear Yellowblue: That makes sense as the upper trigram Kun (the receptive, the earth), is said to move downward. The top line of Hexagram 19, Book One does speak of a sage who decides to return and approach other men in order to teach them.
I have two notes there in my book: the sage approaches or someone (an ordinary person) has come and gone. The only validation in my own experience has been the coming and going of an ordinary person..and I don't think it comports with the line statement or the trigram of Kun which is said to be sinking.

In WB this 6th line commentary appears to be a later writing (probably from the Han Dynasty) based on the principle that Kun is a 'sinking' energy, keeping the top line from being 'outside' or moving away from the hexagram

For me, line statements are not gospel and the meaning may not be clear. However, as a practice I think the line statement is entitled to great weight. I love the idea that the top line of 19 would mean a sage comes to approach and teach others. (or could it mean the Sage-the Yi itself-approaches in order to teach)

When I say that idea has not panned out for me it a disappointment -maybe it is a rare reading or I have just missed when it occurred.
With the ordinary man, rather than a sage, I have that experience that 'having approached he then leaves' for the 6th line.

The philosophy of the hexagram is that yin wanes and yang waxes so that the sixth changing to yang would really express the idea that a Sage approaches.

I can't explain my own readings other than on the basis of experience. I would urge others to keep a diary and make their own decision. My own philosophy is that if a line statement doesn't pan out in practical use, its time to add an note to that effect for later generations.

Wang Bi also says that the top line focuses on the upper, inner trigram, also Kun, which would also mean that the upper line is moving towards and not away from the influence. Wang Bi also says the top represents the Sage (in so many words)

The I Ching text themselves are puzzling. In the Lui I Ming's (thomas cleary) I Ching, the entire hexagram represents basically the process of "overseeing" the furnace, of refining the energies into the golden elixir (immortality) with the sixth line representing the achievement of all that is required. ]]

Wang Bi, also calling the Hexagram "overseeing" says that in this hexagram the yang waxes and the yin wanes so that the good person gradually achieves greater and greater things while the inferior person comes to greater and greater grief. (and to further confuse: the phrase in the eighth month there will be misfortune means the superior man will come to grief and vise versa-this is probably an historical reading that was given great import).
 
Y

yellowblue

Guest
Sun,

: )

yes, I agree... you can't take the text verbatim. The appropriateness is relative to the constants and variables of one's particular situation.

The length of stay for the sage in 19.6 isn't given...

Nor are the particulars in any text. I'm learning how to apply the general to my specific.

Yi is teaching me great lessons through the still, small voice and loud roar... that loud roar can be frightening for me, and I'm more apt to listen to it. The small voice is easier to ignore, but the price of ignoring it is very high. What a wonderful teacher. So much I have to learn yet.

Deb
 
C

candid

Guest
We see this here a lot. People question what appears as a contradiction between the primary and relating hexagrams. There is no contradiction if we assign the right hexagram to its correct context.

Rather than seeing the relating hexagram as an occurrence of future, which follows the primary, try viewing it as a picture of your question, as a backdrop for the answer.

For example: 19.6 changing to 41

Haku, I?d venture a guess that you were apprehensive about going to the event. Chances are you were a bit emotionally shaken over the idea. Hence, 41 was an appropriate description of your circumstance. Advise was to control your anger and instincts in order to decrease those energies which were the source of apprehension. This serves to accomplish a couple of things. One, it puts you in the proper mental framework to receive Yi?s council openly. Second, once these emotions were stabilized and integrated into a more balanced and objective view of the matter, you received 19 with the 6th line moving. You were (or would have been) able to see how to approach this otherwise tense situation with a ?Great Hearted Approach.? This action would have increased your tolerance greatly, making the social event more manageable.
 

midaughter

visitor
Joined
May 10, 1971
Messages
392
Reaction score
2
It Might Have Been

Dear Anita: Now having re-read you message I see you want me to look at the "paired hexagram" that as a guess I would say is Karcher's method. I have often read Hilary and Lise's interpretations based on this method. While me eyes have glazed over in some the analysis parts, I think the results they come up with are as good as any I have seen.
I would call this method of looking at pairs the 'sequence method' as opposed to my own method the study of the relationship of the indiviual lines, the trigrams, espcially the inner trigrams, with a nod to yin-yang theory. I will just call this the hexagram structure or merely 'structure' method since that is the method of the Wilhelm Baynes book (but maybe the sequence method is embedded in the text as well.

So anyway, looking at the top line of 20 and comparing it with the top line of 19, they are remarkably similar. The two hexagrams are mirror images. Where 19 has yin lines, 20 has yang lines. The top lines are very similar in subject matter: 19:6 the Sage returns to wordly affairs to help others.
20:6 The Sage looks down upon the world but has removed himself from it.
Yes, I see the idea.

Of course the problem comes in that our querent received this Hexagram 19:6=41


If I based my interpretation on my own idea, that is the influence has come and now gone (19:6) it would seem to jibe with what she told us happened: She didn't see him and now he's gone.
In the reality of what happened the decline could be something about the decline as a result of NOT seeing him. Maybe she should have gone to meet him.
"Of all the words of paper and pen,
The saddest are these:
It might have been."
 

haku

visitor
Joined
Mar 23, 1971
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
wow, thank you all so much for your highly appreciated insights and advice. i learnt a lot from this that will definitely help me analyze and understand apparent contradictions in the future.

now, to keep teh curious ones amongst you updated: i didn't see my ex-boyfriend anymore for weeks, although he did drop me an email every now and then.

last week i asked the I Ching "are we meant to get togetehr again>?". the reply was 19. A few days later he showed up again at my place... we spend a few days and nights together. we both still tremendously like each other, yet both have doubts about whetehr we want to continue the realtionship.

i was a bit surprised to realize i have these doubts myself, for at first it had hurt me so much when he broke up. so for now we commit to being friends, real friends. maybe there will be another evolution in the future, but not for now (yesterday i received 52 when asking about it :))

thank you again for your valuable teachings.
 

anita

visitor
Joined
Feb 19, 1971
Messages
293
Reaction score
1
Hello Sun,

According to Karcher's method, the top line of 19 goes into the pair 20's bottom line, not the top line. If it's line 5 in 19, you look at line 2 of 20. I'm sure though that your method too means a lot to the interpretation. It is all pretty complex, isn't it? Before I came upon this group, I only looked at individual lines and the general ambience of the resulting hex.

Yes, it might have been. I still have to realise that the Yi doesn't just predict but shows us ways of getting to our goals. And if we don't follow them...

Haku, I'm so glad you shared with us your experience. So the 19 top line did pan out as Sun suggests from her own experience. It might have been. But of course, after that you drew 19 unchanging and there he was!

Best for your Quest
Anita
 

midaughter

visitor
Joined
May 10, 1971
Messages
392
Reaction score
2
Well, they got together. All's well that ends well. I think our querent may have some positive future with this fellow. (usually its the other way around!) The reading of HExagram 52, the Mountain would seem to be right on...an insurmountable obstacle...but there is something to be gained in this relationship. I would also point out that Hexagram 52 also turns on the problem of achieving a quiet heart, something always needed in navigating those reefs that confront the inner relationships of people. This means especially to deal with issues of pain that surrounded this break up.

But for Anita: I wonder how Karcher got this topsy turvy method. Did he think it up himself? I see a huge similarity in the Sage (6h) line for 19 and 20, this upside down business where we compare 19:6 with 20:1 just seems weird to me (although I have a respect for Mr Karcher) Does it have any historical basis? Does anyone know?
 

haku

visitor
Joined
Mar 23, 1971
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
i also think taht 52 means that i have to stop trying to figure it out and focus on keeping still and finding peace within.

My feelings about him are extremely mixed. And i guess his are too. We are clearly committed to our friendship, no matter what, that has become clear last weekend. And i trust him in that. But even though we slept togetehr again, neitehr one of us is ready to be a couple again. But I can't say eitehr that I am sure that I don't want to be a couple anymore.

ANyway, when i asked on wednesday whether it would be a good idea for us to get back togetehr again as a couple(which i actually find more important a question than "will we get back together again?"), I received 24, first line changing. I've had that answer before, when asking about him. It's sort of teh line that says "whatever that goes away will return". And, no doubt, whatever returns will go away again.
:)

but now i'm going waaaay off topic. this is no longer what teh therad was about. but thank you all again for your insights and moral support.
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top