2.4 -> 16

[whiteowl]

Hi guys,

I find myself puzzled by hex 16 in my answer. I asked whether to buy a Christmas present for my ex and got this. 2.4 i totally understand, i received similar answers regarding my actions towards X, but 16 i can't really put into context.

Thx

 

[lucia]

I suspect it's telling you to chill out and stop being over enthusiastic? In other words no, don't buy him a pressy.

Lucia

 

[whiteowl]

I looked around the forum for various interpretations of hex 16 and i don't take it that literary as enthusiasm. That's why i'm not so quick to label my action as enthusiastic. Plus it has no lines, only the whole picture.

Bradford wrote "The Tuan Zhuan calls Yu "responsive movement" (shun dong) or movement responsive to the time."
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=1678

 

[Trojina]

With one line moving thats where to place your focus rather than spend time worrying about 16. 2.4.. buying him a present or not will not affect anything in anyway whatsoever so as Lucia said theres no point at all in buying one...if you have to wporry about 16 it can just refer to making ready, making preparation, anticipation which can be purposeful or not. 2.4 suggests its not.

 

[Trojina]

Anyway Christmas was last week

 

[whiteowl]

i know, older question. 2.4 is very clear, it's not about that. I don't see how 16 fits in the picture. and depending on what books you've read, what's your method of reading the hexagrams, you focus more on one hex or the other. i don't follow this focus on the line, because i find that the i ching gives me a complex answer in both hexagrams.
and i prefer to understand what i read, not take it by heart. imagine king wen, reading only the trigrams, with no 10 translations by his side and commentaries.
If the I wanted to give a straight answer, it would have given me hex 3, with the judgment "Don't engage in nothing" and i would have known right on. Instead it chose this.

 

[mary f]

Whiteowl.
I have to agree with the other guys.
You have a Yin line in a Yin position (2.4) ==> don't move indeed. This respected, 16 comes as a condition of harmony and happy contentment at the end of the day, since Tao sovereign is being obeyed.
Cheers.

 

[mary f]

Just saw your post.
There is an unanimous certitude among the ones who go deeper into I Ching (please don't take it personally, just as an assurance): sometimes we prefer not to see the answers. And yours seem so clear...
All the best.

 

[lucia]

Actually, in more than one of the several translations I use 16 signifies delusion...

Would you have preferred me to say stop deluding yourself ?

Like Trojan said xmas was last week...

Happy New Year

Lucia

 

[whiteowl]

forum talk is really complicated. you seem to say one thing and people concentrate on the other. Yes, it's a question from last week, i revisited it. I didn't go ahead with the present, it would have been redundant since 2.4.

Yes Lucia, i would have preferred to know your take on 16 in context with this question, this is what i am interested in. Is that so hard to understand? I know what 2.4 is saying, i was trying to put 16 in context with the question and the answer

Thank you anyway

 

[Trojina]

forum talk is really complicated. you seem to say one thing and people concentrate on the other. Yes, it's a question from last week, i revisited it. I didn't go ahead with the present, it would have been redundant since 2.4.

Yes Lucia, i would have preferred to know your take on 16 in context with this question, this is what i am interested in. Is that so hard to understand? I know what 2.4 is saying, i was trying to put 16 in context with the question and the answer

Thank you anyway

Ah for pitys sake its not the forum thats complicated ! You are asking a question you already acted upon a week ago but didn't trouble to tell us ! Why didn't you say you'd already not given the present so you didn't need to know about giving the present. IOW explain the situation fully...you made things complicated not us lol. Everyones already said about 16, are you looking for something altogether more profound in your answer about not giving the gift you didn't give...good grief
you didn't even really respond to the answers you did get so we were none the wiser that this was a fait accompli. You need to focus on the clarity of you own communication before bemoaning the fact noones understood you.

 

[diamanda]

It's also really amusing, since this is about a xmas pressie, that the
answer speaks of a "tied up sack", as in, "don't do a Santa" lol

 

[knotxx]

"tied up in a bag" made me laugh, too -- it sounds so much like a present. And maybe it is. But for me often that line has to do with keeping things to myself, shaping myself around things -- containing the big music of 16 inside.

 

[ivonne]

Hi Whiteowl, i'm not an expert and my comment here and now probably won't add or change much outwardly in this case. I just simpathise with your struggle in terms of what to do with the relating hexagrams, when they seem so obviously not to fit the whole context of the question. I've been through it myself, as a beginner, and been experimenting with the possible ways of interpreting them. My modest suggestion, when all else fails, is to try to read the answer straightforwardly, so to speak, as if it were a sentence or a question to you. For instance: is buying a present for your ex awakening any trace of enthusiasm in you? Do you feel enthusiastic enough to buy it and give it to your ex wholeheartedly (the word "enthusiasm" contains "theos", the greek word for divinity) , even if the main hex says no?.

As 2.4 is definitely not encouraging to do so, would enthusiasm here be possible , both for you and for him?

I hope you don't mind this small bit of advice, all the best .

Ivonne

 

[whiteowl]

Thank you Trojan for expressing your feelings sincerely. Yes, now that you've pointed it out, i should have said that i already acted upon the hexagram when i cast it. It makes perfect sense now. And yes, i am looking for a more profound meaning of 16, because i find it different to other hexagrams i receive more frequently. 16 i don't get very often and i don't know how to relate to it.
So i'm sorry for mixing you guy up.

To diamanda and knot, sure, you can find it funny, but i wouldn't take it literary. Actually taking the translation literary on small things like these limits our understanding of the whole picture. Usually it's metaphoric. I've never had the I ching go that blunt on me, giving me literary answers.

Thank you Ivonne, i don't mind. I didn't take the present enthusiastically, not in the "Yey, buying a present" sense. I actually am afraid of this kind of enthusiasm, because it brought so many mistakes in the relationship.
Lately all answers regarding the relationship have been to watch my step, beware of danger, hang in low. So i was trying to act in accordance with time and instinct and not act by impulse.
I like the way you pose the question about the relating hexagram, it's useful. Thank you

 

[bamboo]

It's also really amusing, since this is about a xmas pressie, that the
answer speaks of a "tied up sack", as in, "don't do a Santa" lol

"tied up in a bag" made me laugh, too -- it sounds so much like a present. And maybe it is. But for me often that line has to do with keeping things to myself, shaping myself around things -- containing the big music of 16 inside.

I love that idea of "don't do a santa" and also the containing of the big music inside.

sounds like you had a great intution from the start, whiteowl, and your confusion about 16 seems to be answered by knot. wanting to buy the present in the first place was 16ish, but 2.4 saids to put a lid on it.

but i do disagree about not taking the Yi literally. sometimes it can be very funny by being very literal, and if you disregard that aspect of the Yi personality, you might miss a lot of the great funnies Yi makes.

 

[rosada]

Even though you did not include your ex in your gift giving, 2.4, you still Celebrated 16.

 

[lucia]

"Yes Lucia, i would have preferred to know your take on 16 in context with this question, this is what i am interested in. Is that so hard to understand?"

wow...... I left it to others to respond to that.....

Lucia
"I suspect it's telling you to chill out and stop being over enthusiastic ? In other words no, don't buy him a pressy."
Bamboo
"wanting to buy the present in the first place was 16ish, but 2.4 saids to put a lid on it."
Knot
"But for me often that line has to do with keeping things to myself, shaping myself around things -- containing the big music of 16 inside."

You got my take on 16 in context with this question and nicely too.... And here we are 2 pages later back at the begining....

At the end of the day I suspect a more pertinent question to ask the ching is why exactly are you getting your knickers in such a twist over buying an ex-girlfriend a xmas pressy that you are looking for deeper meanings that aren't there.......

Lucia

 

[ivonne]

Hi Rosada, great take! And it's obvious to me that from some previous posts on we've been talking more about the IChing's rethorics than beeing that shakespearean as to indulge in the " to buy or not to buy" question.BTW, even Shakespeare wouldn't probably know if there is more to it in hex 16 or not, seems to me

 

[whiteowl]

Lucia, interpreting 16 as over enthusiasm is a obvious choice, but you seem to miss the fact that my attitude towards the present was not enthusiastic, but carefully planned and meditated so that it would not be enthusiastic and naive. I already said that. So no, we are not back at the beginning.

To bamboo, i tend to go with Yung take on the synchronicity of the i Ching more than talking to spirits or masters. So if the I ching responds in a way to you, it doesn't mean that everyone else gets those kinds of responses. I do agree that sometimes it is funny and blunt, straight on, but not by taking a metaphor literary. At least not for me. If time says otherwise for you, looking back on your divinations, than good for you

 

[Trojina]

Lucia, interpreting 16 as over enthusiasm is a obvious choice, but you seem to miss the fact that my attitude towards the present was not enthusiastic, but carefully planned and meditated so that it would not be enthusiastic and naive. I already said that. So no, we are not back at the beginning.

To bamboo, i tend to go with Yung take on the synchronicity of the i Ching more than talking to spirits or masters. So if the I ching responds in a way to you, it doesn't mean that everyone else gets those kinds of responses. I do agree that sometimes it is funny and blunt, straight on, but not by taking a metaphor literary. At least not for me. If time says otherwise for you, looking back on your divinations, than good for you

16 as far as I'm concerned is about anticipation, making ready, holding an image in ones mind of how things might be, but aren't yet. All these things can really make us feel joyful and excited, like music, stirring us up to take action. I think thats why 16 can be seen as enthusiasm but enthusiasm is a by product of the mental image making in 16. Now as you know from your own life I expect, one can be correct in ones anticipation and preparations, ones image building can bring the desired outcome or one can be really blinded by ones own mental pictures of how things might be and that is why 16 is also seen as a hexagram sometimes of delusion or trickery. In its most neutral sense I see it as making a mental preparation involving building an image.
As a relating hexagram therefore it can simply refer toones plans, ones imaging of a situation, ones making ready for it. You could say you were making ready for, imaging the giving of the gift. Infact looking at the fan yao, 16.4 which is a kind of reverse image of 2.4 can shed light on the answer. However as I said earlier when one line is moving many people including myself see that as so strong the relatinghex isn't really that important and personally i don't think 16 is here.

Hmm re the literalness of Yis answers i agree with Bamboo. If you dismiss this possibilty you can miss alot. I love it when the Yi is literal, its what makes the Yis answers real to me. Anyone can get a metaphor and twist it all about to make it fit what they want...but when Yi is very literal you know your're not dealing with some pie in the sky new age fabrication cos its so obvious the Yi saw straight to your situation.
The Yi has no need to use metaphor if it can make a point direct..why would it its not interested in looking clever is it lol You know i think some people think the more complex they can make a response look the more respectable it is . Anyway I love the literal answers as they are often very funny, very personal, and also serve the fuction of giving our egos a timely jab of deflation. Consulting the Yi we can get to think each and every decision of ours is of great cosmic significance, very serious and with many philosophical implications...IMO the literal answers remind us we're just pretty clever chimps and alot of what we do really is just exactly as it looks like it is and our need to question about it was just a silly chimp ego delusion...or put in a nicer way we've no need to worry about monsters under each and every bed. Apart from that literal answers can just be incredibly useful and practical, I've read many stories that show this here on the forum. If the querent had dismissed the possibiltiy of the literal answer they'd never have got the point. It doesn't need to make a 'metaphor literary' as you put it if the picture in the line is so apt to your situation it is no longer a metaphor its actual.

If your response was literal, (and I'm not saying for sure it was that remains up to you) then I think the Yi would actually just be reflecting your situation 'oh yeah theres a sack tied up' and I'd personally take that if it were me as 'the present is a sack tied up, no more to say,up to you, no comment'...thats all.

Anyway i think Lucia had a point, one doesn't agonise over gift giving to an ex unless one has still alot of feelings going for the ex. Sounds to me you felt the 2.4 wasn't enough, was dismissive, and are looking for more in the 16. Well perhaps you may as well ask directly about whats going on with the ex than go on looking for something in the present giving question ?

BTW I don't mean to sound harsh and sarcastic (i just seem to ) you've taken all our comments in good spirit where some wouldn't have and given us all food for thought

 

[bamboo]

At least not for me. If time says otherwise for you, looking back on your divinations, than good for you

Whiteowl, I dont only base this on my own readings but those of many others and even readings on this forum. it's not even a question worth arguing about...but anyway, it doesnt at all conflict with carl jung's idea of synchronicity......in fact it backs it up. I dont see the YI as a separate god , either

 

[whiteowl]

Thank you all for responding. I think this is was a lesson for my ego.
Trojan, thank you for taking the time to respond in such depth. You are right. I had a stubborn attitude and was kind of reluctant. And thank you for explaining 16 to me again. It's been useful. When i got 2.4 things were clear to me. I follow the responses of the i ching because most of the time they translate something that my gut keeps telling me, but can't understand. The fact that i have an ascendant in Libra, doesn't make decisions easy for me at times. I've learned (the hard way) not to act if i don't know what way is good for me. So the I Ching has been very educative for me.

Tied up as i've read could be interpreted as self contained (Lynn translation).
Yes, there are still a lot of emotion as you've put it.

Of couse it's funny to say haha, tied up sack, no Santa Claus. I sometimes see literar interpretations when looking at someone else hexagrams. But that wouldn't help me make learn why. I tend to go with the why to learn something and mature from every answer.

Again, thank you all.

 

[MissDany]

10 years may be a little late for offering the thought that a gift in a fun red present pouch with string or a bow around it may be something of a literal interpretation of a tied up sack > enthousiasm?? Seems a little far fetched to be telling the girl not to delude herself! If a gift comes from a warm heart & not intended to coax affection from an uninterested boy through its sheer magnificence then it may be much less complicated.