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27.6

dobro p

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What's your take on the meaning of the first word and first line of 27.6?

Legge and Wilhelm talk about the querent *being* the source of nourishment here, Karcher talks about the querent *being nourished by what came before*, and Shaughnessy just translates you2 as 'from'. I've rendered it as 'source', but my problem still remains - am I the source of the nourishment, or is the source outside me and providing me with nourishment?

Or do you see it as meaning something else entirely?
 

dobro p

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I mean, if you include 24 in the meaning of 27.6, then the idea of 'getting back to where you belong' would suggest the Karcher meaning, right?

But if you include the meaning of 23 in the line (Chris Lofting's idea), then the 'stripping away' could apply to either Wilhelm's or Karcher's meaning.
 

bradford

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What's your take on the meaning of the first word and first line of 27.6?
Legge and Wilhelm talk about the querent *being* the source of nourishment here, Karcher talks about the querent *being nourished by what came before*, and Shaughnessy just translates you2 as 'from'. I've rendered it as 'source', but my problem still remains - am I the source of the nourishment, or is the source outside me and providing me with nourishment?
Or do you see it as meaning something else entirely?

What, you didn't like my missionary to the cannibals metaphor?
We have to give of ourselves to nourish others, so it's good to watch
what it is we give and what they want to take. Some of the hungry
will eat you alive. Just for your meat. They will take the substance
of you and leave the bare bones.
 

dobro p

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Well, that would reflect the stripping away of 23, for sure.

So, this would be an example of a sixth line that expressed the highest meaning of the hex overall? It's more blessed to give than to receive, in other words?

If that's the case, then Hex 27 is really weird, cuz one line is about wanting nourishment that you've already got (27.1), four lines are about *not* nourishing yourself on something (27.2 thru 27.5), and one line is about nourishing others (27.6). And the main text is about the search for something substantial to nourish yourself on.

Where's the actual nourishment? lol
 

bradford

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Where's the actual nourishment? lol

Ever been a teacher? Between you and your students,
who gets the best education? Providing nourishment
is enrichment in itself.
 

dobro p

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Damn.

I'm not romanticizing anything here, but that was really useful.
 

dobro p

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Oh man, I've just had another thought that helps me see the relationship between 27 and 28 better than I've seen it before. Both of them are about going beyond in some way: 28 is about getting beyond or past the situation you're in ("Feets - do yer thing!") and 27 is about getting beyond or past yourself, getting beyond the "What's in it for me?" attitude - hence the concern with quality nourishment, the concern with getting beyond the self-centered attitude in 27.1, the concern with what *not* to nourish yourself on, and the concern with nourishing others. Sweet.

You're now on the Christmas card list of my heart.
 

magictortoise

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am I the source of the nourishment, or is the source outside me and providing me with nourishment?


This sounds like a Zen koan. Who is the I? To which I do you refer? ;) Depends on how you define 'I'. Maybe the answer is both inside and outside. Easy to say philosopically and take a stand, but experientially....I still wrestle with this one.

Best regards,

KgW
 

bradford

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Magic Tortoise-
I gather 27 has special relevance to you,
for calling yourself Ling Gui (magic tortoise).
If you are either small or young could we call you Linguini?
If you're clever with words you could be the Linguiist
 

dobro p

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am I the source of the nourishment, or is the source outside me and providing me with nourishment?


This sounds like a Zen koan. Who is the I? To which I do you refer? ;) Depends on how you define 'I'. Maybe the answer is both inside and outside. Easy to say philosopically and take a stand, but experientially....I still wrestle with this one.

It's not a Zen koan; take it in the ordinary sense. When I say 'I', I'm referring to myself rather than the computer, to myself rather than you, myself rather than the whole universe. You go ahead and wrestle with it if you like, but it's very clear to me whether I make the sandwich and give it to somebody or whether it's the other way around and they make the sandwich and I eat it. No biggie, experientially speaking. Or experientially eating, for that matter.
 

dobro p

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am I the source of the nourishment, or is the source outside me and providing me with nourishment?


This sounds like a Zen koan. Who is the I? To which I do you refer? ;) Depends on how you define 'I'. Maybe the answer is both inside and outside. Easy to say philosopically and take a stand, but experientially....I still wrestle with this one.

Best regards,

KgW

Okay, I've thought about this some more. You're right - it depends which 'I' is being referred to or identified with. But taking one or the other vantage point isn't a problem just for Hex 27 or 27.6 - it's an issue with every hexagram and line in the Yi, and with every moment in your life. Which 'I' is asking the question? Which 'I' is making the decision?

No?
 

hilary

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Magic Tortoise-
I gather 27 has special relevance to you,
for calling yourself Ling Gui (magic tortoise).
If you are either small or young could we call you Linguini?
If you're clever with words you could be the Linguiist

Things that make you go aaargh...

I like the missionary-to-cannibals scenario for 27.6. Just being the source of your own nourishment can also be perilous. There's nothing else to fall back on; no safety net. And seeing yourself as the source of your own experience - a theme picked up in the Image, that what you send out echoes back - is also scary. This tough bread I'm gnawing on now - surely it can't have grown from seeds I sowed? Isn't there another field somewhere?

What's fortunate about this? Maybe that carrying your source of nourishment with you equips you for river-crossing, whereas looking for it outside yourself leaves you helpless? Line 6 versus line 1 - a Zhou versus Shang contrast, maybe?
 

bradford

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This tough bread I'm gnawing on now - surely it can't have grown from seeds I sowed? Isn't there another field somewhere?

It looks a little like this, but it's Tian2, and it appears in 01.2, 07.5, 32.4, 40.2 and 57.4
 

magictortoise

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If you're clever with words you could be the Linguiist

Or if I am tricky with words I would be a Cunning Linguist?

Actually when I first signed on 'magic tortoise' was the first thing that came to mind when I considered a handle. Otherwise 27 holds no particular relevance for me other than a terse reminder to monitor what I take in, both in the sense of coarse food and in the sense of 'soul' food, i.e. my diet of impressions.

Ken
 

magictortoise

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Okay, I've thought about this some more. You're right - it depends which 'I' is being referred to or identified with. But taking one or the other vantage point isn't a problem just for Hex 27 or 27.6 - it's an issue with every hexagram and line in the Yi, and with every moment in your life. Which 'I' is asking the question? Which 'I' is making the decision?

No?

A question we could pursue for eons, no doubt and I am pleased at the debate. I think it is important to try to distinguish somehow, at least in our own minds, what part of ones person, if you will, is propagating the question. If you say 'I hate the color of the dress you are wearing' I believe you are more specifically saying Artistic Dobro doesn't like the color. If if the cheese dish is too salty Culinary Dobro says 'I don't particularly care for the quiche you have made'. As an exercise I will sometimes a specify to myself which 'Ken' is offering the opinion. I don't do this out loud of course.

W/R hexagram 26 (6) I have puzzled over it for years. If we are talking about Nourishment from above or spiritual nourishment then I think the source is outside in the sense that I don't manufacture the food like I am making my evening dinner. It is not within our power. We have to await the initiative of Heaven. Just like my bird awaits the initiative of Ken for his coarse food. The analogy is crude but it demonstrates what I am getting at: Ken is to Heaven as his bird is to Ken. We await a higher nature than our own to give us the goods. Of course the types of food that bird and Ken await are different.

It brings to mind Hexagram 5: All beings have need of nourishment from above, but the gift of food comes in its own time and for this we have to wait. (wilhelm, p24)Like my bird I have to wait for God to come along with seed bag and fill my cup. And sometimes it seems he has forgotten me. But like my old prof of the I Ching use to tell his students: He is never there when you need him, but He is always on time.

I don't know if I have gotten any closer to plumbing the 'source', though. I still am inclined to believe the source is both inside and outside of us. The difficulty I believe is in trying to make a dividing line of inside and out. They coexist like light and dark, no? So maybe this is why we are confounded at where is the source? The less one thinks about it the fewer knots one ties. But I have enjoyed this excursion.


Ken
 

bradford

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Or if I am tricky with words I would be a Cunning Linguist?
Ken

I tried that one out for a few weeks as the title of a local FM radio show -
"This is the Cunning Linguist, tickling your fancy till noon."
There were complaints.
 
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bruce_g

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You don't want to get into radio anyway, Brad. Most announcers cash their paychecks on the bus. But the perks are cool.

I've always liked the "magic tortoise" imagery, and the mythical spin Wilhelm puts on it. I find it empowering when I have a case of the poor me blues.
 

bradford

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You don't want to get into radio anyway, Brad. Most announcers cash their paychecks on the bus. But the perks are cool.

I've always liked the "magic tortoise" imagery, and the mythical spin Wilhelm puts on it. I find it empowering when I have a case of the poor me blues.

I did a show for sixteen years, but it was volunteer,

The Ling in Ling Gui is maybe closer to what the Native Americans call "Spirit" or "Medicine." Medicine Tortoise is how it might translate to them. It's a totem animal with special powers. Ling is also the subtle intelligence that you use to divine. It's also found in Peyote buttons.
 
B

bruce_g

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I did a show for sixteen years, but it was volunteer,

Cool. You must have enjoyed it to stay with it that long, and not worrying about a check to cash. Student apprentice programs were a great way to hire free labor too. Care to share what kind of program you MC'd? Was it public broadcasting?

The Ling in Ling Gui is maybe closer to what the Native Americans call "Spirit" or "Medicine." Medicine Tortoise is how it might translate to them. It's a totem animal with special powers. Ling is also the subtle intelligence that you use to divine. It's also found in Peyote buttons.

These mythical creatures are now relegated to cartoons for kids. And maybe some works of art. I watched a program on MTV, an extreme form of hip hop dancing called krumping. The producer superimposed old African ritual dancing footage, acting out various stories. The dances was strikingly similar, then and now. I think we lose something when we lose our myths, or write them off as fairytale. Maybe we lose our soul.
 

hilary

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It looks a little like this, but it's Tian2, and it appears in 01.2, 07.5, 32.4, 40.2 and 57.4
Yes... I was aiming for the first character in 27.6 - the field and the seedling that sprouts there, right? And a sense -at least to judge from the compounds it's used in at Zhongwen - of being the container-out-of-which things come?
 

bradford

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Yes... I was aiming for the first character in 27.6 - the field and the seedling that sprouts there, right? And a sense -at least to judge from the compounds it's used in at Zhongwen - of being the container-out-of-which things come?

That's the etymology explanation. Sorry, I missed your allusion. You2 is also where the "enthusiasm" comes from at 16.4.
 

rosada

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I look at the way the bottom trigram mirrors the top one. It is as if God, 27.6, was lonely, wanted someone equal to Himself to talk to and so projected himself on to The Great Undifferentiated and manefested as 27.1. But as junior gods, or newborn gods we are inexperienced and don't know where we came from or why we are here. We only know we want to be one with God again, but somehow this is denied us. We must recognize that we already ARE one with God, that we have or that we are the Magic Tortoise. But until we realize that we are the source, we misinterpret all our experiences and look to outside sources as being the cause of our condition (27.2). But even so, even though our desires only beget more desires and never satisfaction (27.3), in the fulfilling of our fantasies, we come to experience the creative power that is ours and God's. Once aware of our creative power, we realize it cannot be satisfied only serving our own needs, that our personal needs are only pleasures for the sences. To be truly satisfied we find our power needs to be used to satisfy the needs of ALL, to be responcible, able to respond, to ALL. (27.4) From there we realize we cannot, from our limited human perspective do this, and that we must connect our power with a power which can, and this turns us to consider, to use our power to create a mechanism which can: God/the Magic Tortoise(27.5) Thus in 27.6 we have God the creator of man in the same space as man the creator of God. It is a dangerous place to be, kinda like hex.9, the handler, next to hex10, the lion. But as Man recognizes he is a co-creator then great good fortune is possible.
 
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magictortoise

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We must recognize that we already ARE one with God, that we have or that we are the Magic Tortoise.

The instructor who taught me the use of the oracle years ago at university used to tell his classes that the magic tortoise is ones own nature, that when we are accord with our natures we are in accord with the Divine, with our surround, and so are magic. Not being in accord with our nature is 'to let your magic tortoise go'. If we accorded with our natures instant by instant we should never have to consult the oracle. I believe that we participate in the nature of Tao. We are baby Tao's, baby Way's, as I think you alluded to as junior God's. So the magic tortoise is not, to my mind, some mysterious talisman. It is my own nature, closer than hands and feet!

Ken W.
 

dobro p

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I don't know if I have gotten any closer to plumbing the 'source', though. I still am inclined to believe the source is both inside and outside of us. The difficulty I believe is in trying to make a dividing line of inside and out. They coexist like light and dark, no?

For me, it's not a matter of light and dark, two sides of the same coin. For me, the source is beyond me or above me, and the way to it is found within me. Direct attention inward in the right way, with the right attitude and preparation, with the right support and guidance, and you find the door to the source, just like the kids find their way into Narnia via the wardrobe.
 

magictortoise

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For me, the source is beyond me or above me, and the way to it is found within me. Direct attention inward in the right way, with the right attitude and preparation, with the right support and guidance, and you find the door to the source, just like the kids find their way into Narnia via the wardrobe.



I am reminded of Hexagram 61, the Wilhelm commentary on p 235:

An egg is hollow. the light-giving power must work to quicken it from the outside, but there must be a germ of life within, if life is to be awakened.

True enough and this statement seems to support your view. Still it seems that part and parcel of that source is also present within, elst how would we recognize it when we are filled with it. I believe that because we didn't create ourselves that we partake of the nature of the Creator/Tao/ God/Source, a nature higher than our own. So in effect it is both without and within. A germ of it within. Only we can't be illumined all at once for all time, elst we would be God. So we are fed a wee bit at a time, as much as our nature's are able to contain. Here is where the preparation you mention comes in to play. I think of hexagram 50, the Cauldron, and the necessity of cleaning the cup and making it a fit vessel.

I also believe that the bestowal of light/source is an act of grace. All the preparation we undergo to ready ourselves does not coerce the door to open. Preparation is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for enlightenment.

Thanks for the light on this,

Ken
 

wind

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I always come across this thread whenever I feel unsure about 27. I know this is an older thread, but I have to say thank you to Bradford for his brilliant interpretation of 27 and particularly how he related it to line 6.

The casting came up for me one time when I was feeling particularly hurt emotionally. I had given notice at a previous place of employment. The administrator called me into her office and basicly cast me aside so easily. It was a job in which I worked much harder than I was being paid for and aside from feeling used, I felt very unappreciated.

I asked the Yijing why I felt so upset over this, I received 27.6>24. While I was so busy with feeling hurt,I forgot how much my coworkers looked up to me and knew they could always count on me to be supportive on a professional and personal level. My coworkers reflected the kindness and dedication I shared with them and that made all the difference to me.

That resulting 24 confirmed that returning to my own path was the right way to go. I left with great knowledge for my future and I made some really great friends.

... And then I didn't feel bad for a second longer.:bows:
 
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rodaki

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and then someone reads it serendipitously at 5 a.m. and finds in it the answers to the questions she didn't know was asking :) ..
Great thread you guys, Wind thanks for bringing it back up into the light!
 
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butterfly spider

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Returning to this thread makes me appreciate just how lucky I really am - despite the rubbish that is going on and the knocks from situations
Got this casting :rofl:this
Morning....
 
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