29.4

[Sparhawk]

Seems we are mixing up code pages here.

The webpage is ISO-8859-1, and I think I've been posting Chinese in a format more or less compatible with that. Sparhawk seems to have been posting Chinese in UTF-8.

You'll have to switch character encodings to read it all.

Thanks! Let me try to fix that. You are correct, I was using UTF-8...

L

 

[bradford]

Let's backtrack for a second to the main themes running throughout 29 -
In any sort of crisis, voluntary or not, we need to focus on what needs to be done,
and we can't lose heart or else the abyss will EAT us alive. I think it's pretty obvious
thatmy own interpretation is based on this: you strip the situation of all its nonsense
and do what needs doing first, driven by necessity, all else being distraction.
How about the others?

This was my idea of the main themes:
29.M, Key Words
Repeated, multiple, familiar with + crisis, risk, hazard, peril, exigency, trial, danger
Pit, chasm, canyon, gorge, strait, test; living on the edge, the way out is through
Immerse, plunge in, undergo, commit, fall to, get involved; fear, vertigo, anxiety
Concentration, alertness, challenge, unarguable constraints, the will to live, heart
Flow, water’s approach to givens, necessity to perform; fluidity, grace, courage
Enlightening confrontations, the hard fact as teacher; Castaneda’s having to believe

 

[bruce_g]

Let's backtrack for a second to the main themes running throughout 29 -
In any sort of crisis, voluntary or not, we need to focus on what needs to be done,
and we can't lose heart or else the abyss will EAT us alive. I think it's pretty obvious
thatmy own interpretation is based on this: you strip the situation of all its nonsense
and do what needs doing first, driven by necessity, all else being distraction.
How about the others?

This was my idea of the main themes:
29.M, Key Words
Repeated, multiple, familiar with + crisis, risk, hazard, peril, exigency, trial, danger
Pit, chasm, canyon, gorge, strait, test; living on the edge, the way out is through
Immerse, plunge in, undergo, commit, fall to, get involved; fear, vertigo, anxiety
Concentration, alertness, challenge, unarguable constraints, the will to live, heart
Flow, water’s approach to givens, necessity to perform; fluidity, grace, courage
Enlightening confrontations, the hard fact as teacher; Castaneda’s having to believe

I feel/think your view of 29 is narrower than your key words, or at least as you've described it here.

Castaneda's experiences (with don Juan) were in 29 territory, agreed. Anything unknown has the potential to create a sense of mystery and danger. But to define 29 as danger alone is, I believe, only part of the picture. I'm not saying you're doing this, but there are some who seem to limit it to this. "Heart flow, water’s approach to givens, necessity to perform; fluidity, grace, courage, enlightening confrontations, the hard fact as teacher" are all excellent and equally applicable definitions.

So, I don't see 29 as necessarily being perilous, so much as appearing to be perilous. Perilous, in the sense of line 4, can be something as basic as fear of incurring debt.

I had a neighbor who needed something, and I gave him what he needed. He wanted to pay for it, but I didn't want money for it. He cursed, saying something like 'god damn it, now I feel I'm in debt to you.' I thought at the time it was an odd thing to say, but if I put myself in his place, I could understand what he felt.

I think line 4 is saying "Don't sweat it, it's cool. Enjoy!"

 

[ewald]

Let's backtrack for a second to the main themes running throughout 29 -

Agreeing mostly, except:
- 習 is in my view familiarizing with, getting used to. Repeating/multiple doesn't work for me.
- "Castaneda’s having to believe" is, if I remember correctly, the need to trust one's view of the situation. While I think trusting oneself and one's view is good, I don't think that trusting belief is good. One's view should be constantly updated, in order not to succumb to belief, which is basically a lack of awareness. What you really need in a 29 situation is awareness.

 

[bradford]

Repeating/multiple doesn't work for me.

So you don't think that xi refers to the repetition of the ba gua, the chong in chong gua?
I thought that was a pretty obvious reference, unless you hold the belief that trigrams didn't exist yet, which is something I can't subscribe to.

 

[Sparhawk]

Now, I find that er4 is a great word to debate semantically. Here is something interesting:

English Senses For: er4 (貳)
in ancient China - a deputy / to serve as a deputy / to suspect / to doubt / to distrust / changeable / an elaborate form of " two "used in writing checks etc. to prevent forgery - / to repeat / double ness / a Chinese family name

29.4 (from Steve Marshall's Zhouyi transcription)

六四 樽酒簋貳。用缶。納約自牖。終无咎。

Now, look at the parsing above; if we take this as the correct parsing, then we have a four distinct verses here. Thus, er4 is part of the first verse...

The meaning I like most above is: " an elaborate form of " two "used in writing checks etc. to prevent forgery - / to repeat / double ness /". From this, I depart from both Brad's (number two, meaning a numeral) and Ewald's (distrust) interpretations. If I was translating this on my own, I would see er4 as a way to "make sure; be assured of; doble-check something is accomplished --i.e. check door locks more than once, etc.--; surely; in a sure manner; with assurance; without doubt; etc." An off-the-wall interpretation for "er4" could be as part of explaining "compulsive behaviour" by repeatedly doing something. Now, notice that my interpretation is, somewhat, a combination of "two", as numeral, and "distrust". It is derived from both.

I have other unorthodox semantic interpretations for the characters of the first verse.

One of the meanings for 樽 is "lush, luxuriant." I like that. A lot. From there I can derive a meaning of "fine, luxurious". This interpretation fits, IMVHO, like a glove with the next character, 酒, which is translated as wine or liquor. Thus, I would interpret "樽 酒" as "fine wine", "precious wine", meaning a wine that is only used for especial occasions or purposes (i.e. "holy wine", etc.)

The next character, "簋," is very interesting, contextually so. Its meaning being a "basket of bamboo" (bowl, if you want to stretch the meaning to other "hollow container"). But not just any "bamboo basket" (or bowl) it is a special basket used in sacrifices, offerings and/or special occasions, like in a feast. Its use something akin to the bronze "ding", but in a wooden version.

Again, if this parsing is correct --and thus its contextual meaning--, "er4" I would translate "樽酒簋貳。" as:

"Making certain (貳) the finest (樽) {or proper/correct} wine/liquor (酒) goes in the sacrificial basket {vessel} (簋)"

Of course, I know that above I transposed characters, etc., but it is a totally "right-brained" translation of the verse....



Luis

 

[bruce_g]

Luis, couldn't two, then, mean a binding agreement? Such as, each party receives a duplicate contract?

And, perhaps offering both copies to someone was a sign of trust, that they are not legally bound to uphold it. Completely a matter of trust, or that they in fact owe nothing in return.

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, couldn't two, then, mean a binding agreement? Such as, each party receives a duplicate contract?

And, perhaps offering both copies to someone was a sign of trust, that they are not legally bound to uphold it. Completely a matter of trust, or that they in fact owe nothing in return.

Bruce, please bear in mind that what I wrote is pure speculation. My knowledge of Chinese allows me to use a dictionary and read some of "The Epoch Times" I snatch from my favorite Chinese buffet; that's about it... Perseverance furthers...

Now, to answer your question, what you are suggesting would apply only if you translate that particular verse in the traditional way (Brad, Wilhelm, Huang, etc.) In that case, then yes, I would agree with you this is a possible interpretation. What I offered, however, is a left field translation. It makes a lot of sense to me, though...

L

 

[bruce_g]

Luis, well at least we're operating with the same (left field) translation.

 

[ewald]

Brad - I don't know whether trigrams were taken into account when the Zhouyi was composed. I haven't noticed references to them in it. I think one can translate the Zhouyi just fine without ever caring about trigrams.
The "getting familiar with" aspect is in my view crucial to what 29.0 and 29.1 are about. "Repeating" is not, and doesn't seem particularly likely to me.

 

[ewald]

Here is something interesting:

About the parsing:
I'm not taking the parsing that was handed down to us very seriously. The original text doesn't have interpunction. I have found countless times that a more logical, convincing text is possible by applying my own interpunction.

"An elaborate form of " two "used in writing checks etc. to prevent forgery."
Was this meaning in use in Zhou times? Not all meanings in a dictionary are, you know. There weren't checks then, as that requires a very developed money system.

An elaborate form of "two" still is a "2," it does not mean "preventing forgery," that's just the intention of its use. So it doesn't mean "making certain."

One of the meanings for 樽 is "lush, luxuriant." Yes, but only when it's about vegetation. Apparently not when it's about wine.

I have conflicting information about the meaning of 簋.
Apparently, it is a round as well as a square basket or vessel of bamboo, that is made of bronze, which is used at sacrifices and feasts, and nothing in particular. It can hold grain as well as food.
So I take it to be a bowl.

 

[hmesker]

I have conflicting information about the meaning of

簋. Apparently, it is a round as well as a square basket or vessel of bamboo, that is made of bronze, which is used at sacrifices and feasts, and nothing in particular. It can hold grain as well as food. So I take it to be a bowl.

This is a gui:

But this is also a gui:

The shape of a gui changed a lot during the centuries, according to the 金文常用字典 dictionary. In Shang time some had no ears, some had two ears, in Western Zhou time some even had four ears. If you search Google Images for 簋 you will see different types of gui.

Harmen.

 

[Trojina]

I think Luis' interpretation makes alot of sense.

 

[ewald]

So the Gui was probably big and heavy. Seems that that would be problematic to get through a window. Why put it through a window anyway? Getting such a thing into a jail seems strange.

 

[hmesker]

So the Gui was probably big and heavy.

Pictures can be deceiving. If I compare the first picture with similar items in Chinese Bronzes - The Natanael Wessen Collection by B. Karlgren & J. Wirgin, a typical gui would probably be between 10-20 cm in height, and weigh 1,5 - 3 Kg.

But the whole idea of giving sacrificial and ceremonial objects through a window reminds me of certain practices we had here in the West as well as in China: we had certain procedures to mislead the evil spirits. Clocks on churches had different times on them, so the devil wasn't sure what time it was and when the service would begin. In China boys would be given girls' names, so that evil spirits would think the baby was a girl and would leave it alone. When the bride had to go to the groom on her wedding day she had to come from an auspicious direction. But when the straight way between the two villages was inauspicious she would often take a large detour to enter the village from the auspicious direction.
Giving ceremonial objects through the window could be a similar way of deceiving evil spirits. When the goods are not handed over the normal way, how could the evil ghosts know that an important ceremony is about to take place? Evil ghosts are stupid, you know.

Mind you, this is interpretation. I am not saying that this is actually meant in the text of 29.4 . I am only saying that it reminds me of it.

Harmen.

 

[ewald]

Giving ceremonial objects through the window could be a similar way of deceiving evil spirits.

It's interesting that this would explain the 終 "eventually," and fits with the hexagram theme of danger (here avoiding it).

 

[Trojina]

Coincidentally I asked today about what was going on in my meditation as I'm getting strong physical sensations round my head and forhead as if patterns were being traced there. Received 29 lines 4 and 5, hmm, I think I understand, feels like a window opening at least.

 

[rosada]

Interesting you had this experience during meditation. Like a window opening between the inner world and the outer world.

 

[Trojina]

Definately

 

[Sparhawk]

About the parsing:
I'm not taking the parsing that was handed down to us very seriously. The original text doesn't have interpunction. I have found countless times that a more logical, convincing text is possible by applying my own interpunction.

Well, I also understand that punctuation is a more or less modern development in Chinese writing. However, whoever parsed the text, as it has reached us, must have applied some kind of logic to it. If ignoring the parsing works for your translation, then I've no problems with it, but, it will remain a very subjective one. This is fine, really. Dobro is also translating his own version. LiSe, Brad, etc., have done it. Who knows, I might, someday, do the same (and I have over a hundred different translations and interpretations of the text, both in English and Spanish...) So, it isn't a "need" as much as it is a challenge.

"An elaborate form of " two "used in writing checks etc. to prevent forgery."
Was this meaning in use in Zhou times? Not all meanings in a dictionary are, you know. There weren't checks then, as that requires a very developed money system.

An elaborate form of "two" still is a "2," it does not mean "preventing forgery," that's just the intention of its use. So it doesn't mean "making certain."

About 貳, you may be missing the forest for the trees... It goes without saying that there were no "checks" to be written in the Zhou Dynasty. However, the concept of "assurance" and "making certain" are quite universal and have been around pretty much since the time cavemen chipped obsidian to make knives and spear points. Granted, I'm sure there are quite a few other Chinese characters and combinations to convey the same idea. I would not discard 貳, given its potential meaning, as one of them. Actually, I've seen 貳 given the meaning of "fool-proofing".

Mind you, I know very well it mainly means "two" and perhaps the path of least resistance for an interpretation is just that... The door remains open for other interpretations, though.

One of the meanings for 樽 is "lush, luxuriant." Yes, but only when it's about vegetation. Apparently not when it's about wine.

I understand 椮 (sen1) is what applies to vegetation more precisely than zun1... But hey, what I say above about the "path of least resistance" applies to 樽. I'm not about to re-write and go against established translating academia with the Yi. Not just yet...

Apparently, it is a round as well as a square basket or vessel of bamboo, that is made of bronze, which is used at sacrifices and feasts, and nothing in particular. It can hold grain as well as food.
So I take it to be a bowl.

Well, it is a bowl in the way that is a hollow, concave container. Not just any kind of bowl as I explained above and Harmen confirmed with his pictures.

Best,

Luis

 

[bruce_g]

Definately

Auspicious when someone can change. :bows:

 

[bruce_g]

Definately

Interesting that line 5 reaches upward toward the brim, or the head area, as though this is the location of the sensation you describe. Curious if that's in your lower, middle or upper head, just for chakra reference.

 

[hmesker]

"An elaborate form of " two "used in writing checks etc. to prevent forgery."
Was this meaning in use in Zhou times?

Yes, I think it was. In the 金文引得 collection of bronze inscriptions a vessel classified as the 五年召伯虎 gui (Vol. I, entry 5034) contains the following sentences (characters between () are the modern equivalent of the preceding character; X are characters that are not in Unicode):

弋(秘)白(伯)氏從X(許)。公宕其參 (叄)。女(汝)X(則)宕其貳。公宕其貳。女(汝)則宕其一。

I don't know how I should translate these lines and I could not find a translation in any of my books. But we have here in three following sentences the characters 叄, 貳 and 一. 叄 is the elaborate form for 'three', 貳 is the elaborate form for 'two', and 一 is 'one'. Even though I don't know how to translate these sentences, I guess it shows that 貳 had the meaning of 'two' in Western Zhou times. The 五年召伯虎 gui is dated in the later part of the Western Zhou dynasty.

Harmen.

 

[ewald]

Thanks Harmen, that clears it up. The numbers are preceded by the same two characters 宕其 each time, and there's some sort of count down 3, 2, 2, 1.

 

[bruce_g]

Possibly being overlooked (though not by Harmen’s vessel images) are the beneficial and possibly benevolent aspects of danger. In Tibetan mandalas, the fierce door guardians with heads of bear, horse, pig, dog and lion, secure not only the inner realm from intrusion, but also serve to protect those whose hearts and minds are not prepared for their own undoing.

So, in line 4, when a sacred vessel is passed through the window of consciousness, is it not a gift? Is not danger itself a gift of the gods?

 

[dobro p]

Someone is in jail, a friend visits, hands the prisoner a jug of wine and a couple of bowls of rice through the prison bars. They are poor, so they only have earthenware plates and the one jug, it is done out of friendship, there is no obligation here, thanks is all that is necessary.

I didn't even notice the importance of this at first. The prison idea is a really good one. 29 has this idea of risk or danger, but one of the root meanings of the hex name is 'pit', right? Didn't the Chinese use pits for prisons sometimes? Not only that, but the relating hex for 29.4 is 47, with its idea of confinement, and this echoes the prison idea.

Anyway, if it fits it means something like: helping someone who's stuck or trapped, or being helped when you're stuck or trapped. No idea of obligations or commitment in this approach either; just charity which is without fault or blame.

 

[esolo]

Literally it's a jin or metal carriage, but those were never very practical, so just like at 04.3 it refers to wealth, the chariot of a person of means.
This makes the state of depression or ingratitude all the more incongruous
or comical, and Hex 47 uses caricature a lot to snap us out of these states.

That's very interesting because the question that I asked when I got this answer involved someone with some wealth - not a lot, but more than a lot of people - who was in a bit of a jam I think. He would have definitely been the one on the receiving end. I thought about that when I saw 'gilded carriage'.

 

[dobro p]

The metal carriage/gilded carriage only crops up in 47, so I think it's a variation on our 'bird in a gilded cage'.

 

[bradford]

Hi Luis-
I should expand on an earlier statement - ALL meanings of Er concern the number two, which is and was it's primary meaning - even doubt and distrust - second guessing, having second thoughts, wanting a second opinion, not liking the ambivalence or ambiguity, being torn, having two hearts, being on the horns of a dilemna, etc. Two is the root meaning. Doubt and distrust are secondary, even if these were in use in the Early Zhou.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Brad,

Hi Luis-
I should expand on an earlier statement - ALL meanings of Er concern the number two, which is and was it's primary meaning - even doubt and distrust - second guessing, having second thoughts, wanting a second opinion, not liking the ambivalence or ambiguity, being torn, having two hearts, being on the horns of a dilemna, etc. Two is the root meaning. Doubt and distrust are secondary, even if these were in use in the Early Zhou.

Thanks. Understood about "two" being the basic/main meaning of Er. What about "double checking"? I just wonder if, in certain contexts, the meaning can be extended to that.

L