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3.1.2 to 29 ... what to expect?

nina

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Hi everybody,

I had a relationship that ended quite badly 2 years ago and that man has been saying he wants back for the past months. We have been talking / mailing since, and he has been saying he wants to get his life in order, and not repeat the same mistakes as last time, and he needs some time. To quote him, we indeed "both have scars from that relationship that we need to deal with".
So yesterday we had that conversation, where he said he needs time in January to get his life in order and that he should be ready by early February so that we then go together on that holiday in the sun we talked about last time and never got to do...

So I asked about the prospects of this holiday in February and got 3.1.2 to 29.

I suspect that 3, talking about difficulties in the beginning, points to the fact that the new start will not be easy, given all the scars. But it gives me hope, in that it suggests perseverance. Am I seeing it right, or just as I want to see it?

Line 1 talks about seeking help... here I am on that forum...but again about perseverance.

Line 2 talks about difficuties again, but also about that maiden, who waits (well I have been waiting, and will wait again to February, but certainly not to the end of times..., and i think he knows that, and that if he fails me on that February deadline he set up for himself, he risks being history), but who pledges herself in the end. Also the line seems to say "He is not a robber; He wants to woo when the time comes" (February?) according to an online translation. Not so sure about that whole line, please help...

About resulting hexagram 29, well, danger is there, but "if one is sincere when confronted with difficulties, the heart can penetrate the meaning of the situation. And once we have gained inner mastery of a problem, it will come about naturally that the action we take will succeed. In danger all that counts is really carrying out all that has to be done - thoroughness - and going forward, in order not to perish through tarrying in the danger." again that same tranlation. I take from it that if this holiday takes place, thorough discussions will be needed, and then, if sincerity is present, then whatever we decide will be successful.

I would be grateful about any insights, and any correction to my interpretation. Thanks a lot, and Happy New Year!

Nina
 

pargenton

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Nina,
you don't really need much help in interpretation, you already did it, and very well indeed...

3.2

I think it reflects your state or mind; you have doubts about this man, the line says you will change your view, with time.

Maybe is a hint, showing him your firm position to let him understand you want a serious relationship.
Did you read Bradford's translation ? it has a reference to babies..

03.2, 6 2nd
It may seem that needing assistance is the same as turning back
A team of four horses arrayed alike
Not an adversary (but) a marital suitor*
The woman, of tender years, (is) resolved: no babies
Ten years, then babies

Well, only you can say whether it is a metaphor or not...

Anyway the situation won't be easy, given 29 as a resulting /context hex.

So be careful...
Peace
Paolo
 

nina

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Hi Paolo,

Thanks for the encouraging words about my interpretation...

As for 3.2, yes I have doubts, given the tumultuous past, but I am ready to change my mind if I see him delivering on his promise and sincere about getting back together.

Line 6 is interesting. I hope the 10 years are metaphorical, but if it is just supposed to mean "a long time", well, it is being a long time... Will be interesting to see if the "adversary", ie. the man many would think unsuitable for me, turns out to be a "marital suitor" (that's what he says he ultimately wants). The woman of tender years (anecdotally, note that I am 12 years younger than he is...), changes her mind from no babies to babies... Well, let's see if he is persistent enough to get me there.

And 29 is indeed saying this will be no rose garden, but he "never promised me rose garden" as the song goes. We lived a fantasy relationship last time round, cut out from reality, so when it kicked in, ouch. Maybe this time it would be a real one, which also entails pain and danger. Scar healing takes time and effort, but I am prepared for it.

Thanks for your response, Paolo.

Nina
 

pargenton

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Another two words Nina,
I think you will need assistance and/or help:
03.0
Worthwhile to establish delegates

And
03.2, 6 2nd
It may seem that needing assistance is the same as turning back (giving up)

Don't understand exactly what the function of delegates is, in this matter, maybe you will need to be helped and supported by some friends.
 

pargenton

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This is from Lise's site:

6 at 2: Then sprouting, then proceeding with difficulty, then driving a team of horses. No bandit: a marital suitor. Girls determination: no babies. Ten years, then babies.
Don't just be a reaction on what comes up to you: running when all seems easy, and frustrated by the first obstacle. Things cannot be accomplished just like that, they need time and thought. So don't rush, but don't let anything stop you either.
 

nina

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Paolo, you have a point here...

The first place I have sought help is this forum -
happy.gif
, and this morning I have also booked an appointment with Delfina (see the thread about advisors), that very supportive medium whom I have known for years now. She has been helpful in a number of situations.

As for 3.2, I have copy-pasted the translation from Eclectic Energies that I sometimes use:

"Difficulties pile up.
Horse and wagon part.
He is not a robber;
He wants to woo when the time comes.
The maiden is chaste,
She does not pledge herself.
Ten years - then she pledges herself.

We find ourselves beset by difficulties and hindrances. Suddenly there is a turn of affairs, as if someone were coming up with a horse and wagon and unhitching them. This event comes so unexpectedly that we assume the newcomer to be a robber. Gradually it becomes clear that he has no evil intentions but seeks to be friendly and to offer help.

But this offer is not to be accepted, because it does not come from the right quarter. We must wait till the time is fulfilled; ten years is a fulfilled cycle of time. Then normal conditions return of themselves, and we can join forces with the friend intended for us.

Using the image of a betrothed girl who remains true to her lover in face of grave conflicts, the hexagram gives counsel for a special situation. When in times of difficulty a hindrance is encountered and unexpected relief is offered from a source unrelated to us, we must be careful and not take on ourselves any obligations entailed by such help; otherwise our freedom of decision is impaired. If we bide our time, things will quiet down again, and we shall attain what we have hoped for."


Reading this, I wonder whether the unexpected event mentioned is the fact that this man reappeared very unexpectedly in my life some 5 months ago, and it would have been logical for me to assume he was a "robber" (I had, and to some extent still have, doubts, as you said before), given his past behavior. So, at that time I did not jump with both feet at his offer to see each other, as I thought it was too early. I also think his intentions were less clear at that time. Now time is passing (as the line says it should), and maybe he will turn out not to be a robber, but the one who wooes when the time comes.

So I hope that by seeking the support at the right places and letting him the time he needs in January, time for the pledge will come...

Any thoughts about this interpretation of line 2?Thanks for your insights, Paolo. (anybody else's insights are welcome!)

Nina
 

pargenton

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Anyway ten years are clearly metaphorical, but are a long time, don't think a single month is enough...
:)
i.e. your relationship will need time to develop and to heal previous issues, ten years (metaphorical) is the period needed for you to trust him.

Some other thoughts about line 2:
03.2x
Six second has difficulties
Overcoming resolve
* Ten years, then babies:
Revise the rules

Here is the woman who does not accepts any compromise and establish the rules, also of the relationship, at least I think the line is suggesting it.

Paolo
 

nina

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You are right, one month will not be enough to heal, but as the initial question pertained to the prospects for this holiday in February, and taking into account the fact that we have not actually seen each other since he made contact 5 months ago, I was thinking that 6 months would be a long time and that I hope that at least we get to see each other for that holiday, and see where it goes from there. Hex 3 says to me that the relationship would start (the trip would take place), but with difficulties. I did not see in the reading indications that it would not take place, ie no clear stop/failure sign. Am I mistaken?

Nina
 

pargenton

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Yes, green light,
the relationship will start, hex 3, with some difficulties, and all the things written before...

waiting for a postcard from Paris... ;-)

P.S. and don't underestimate hex 29, be careful, whatever it means

Paolo
 

pam

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Green light?? I don't see that at all. There is a hint in Legge's translation which is much more similar to what I have experienced when getting 3.2 -

"The second SIX, divided, shows (its subject) distressed and obliged to return; (even) the horses of her chariot (also) seem to be retreating. (But) not by a spoiler (is she assailed), but by one who seeks her to be his wife. The young lady maintains her firm correctness, and declines a union. After ten years she will be united, and have children."

and in the footnotes to that line..."All these circumstances suggested to the duke of Kâu the idea of a young lady, sought in marriage by a strong wooer, when marriage was unsuitable, rejecting him, and finally, after ten years, marrying a more suitable, the only suitable, match for her."

....after ten years (or, a long time) she will be united BUT NOT TO THIS SUITOR. Do you still want the relationship to start if the background is 29? I would not go. I don't know if you could meet on more neutral ground in your own back yard - but a holiday somewhere else might cause you undo difficulties - remember your own quote above "But this offer is not to be accepted, because it does not come from the right quarter. We must wait till the time is fulfilled; ten years is a fulfilled cycle of time. Then normal conditions return of themselves, and we can join forces with the friend intended for us. "

"this offer is not to be accepted" is pretty clear. You don't know what the danger will turn out to be - it could be something you can't foresee at all. The trip may take place, but I try to take the Yi's advice on scary predictions. Perhaps it is just that the two of you no longer connect, or can't agree to let bygones be bygones. Even if nothing scary happens, abysmal feelings are something I would rather avoid is possible.

Two and a half years ago my son went on a class trip to Washington, D.C. (he was 12) and when I asked whether I should let him go I threw 51.5 - 17. I was so worried I asked several more questions and was told to send him - the shock would not cause much damage - received 40 several times in those answers. It turned out that the third day he was there, he and two other boys were robbed at knifepoint by 6 large (like 18-20) boys in a mall where the teachers had let them shop and get lunch for an hour. He lost a new purchase but no money (he wore a money belt), one friend lost $40 and the other stood his ground (he knew karate). Then he was interviewed by police and asked to point out the assailants. My son was scared to death for a few days but continued on with the group and came home happy in the end. No important losses, as the line 51.5 says. But that is not what you threw.

Had I even guessed in advance that something like that would have happened I never would have let him go.

If I were you, I would ask a few more questions and see what kind of difficulties you are facing with this trip. And yes, you are seeing what you want to see. 3 - 29 is not a positive answer at all.
 

gene

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Nina

Line one, especially if a yang line, nearly always is an indicate that the situation is premature. Whether it is this man, or another man, the time is not ripe, at least not yet. Number 29 is probably the most intense hexagram relating to danger. I doubt it means physical danger, although I can't say for positive, but caution is advised. Beyond that, I think Pam makes some good points.

Gene
 

jerryd

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There is an intrestingalternativeto the 3.2 reading of the lines at the bottom of page 18 in my I Ching translation by Wilhelm and Baynes.
If you have it it refers to the horse and wagon turning not seperateing, and sais if the robber were not there(ALREADY) the wooer would come, indicating the robber is there keeping the wooer at bay? maden faithful, ten years later pleges.

Darmic paths may be calculated in stages lasting approximately 12 to 14 years, arranged marriages
were quite common in ancient times and this reading may have been done for a maden of very young age. Just something to contemplate.
 

pargenton

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Hmmm....
I was not so negative because:
1) Nina is well aware of the difficulties of starting this relationship.
2) Nina is also aware of the time needed (the ten years) to trust this man.
3) Nina is also well determined like the woman in 3.2
With regard to translations, I like Bradford's ones since there is also the chinese text available.
I can't see any hint there that the person considered a robber is a different one that the marital suitor.
From the matrix translation:

fei3 匪1820 22+8 04.0 (it, this is) not 22.4
kou4 寇3444 40+8 04.6 (a, an) assailant, adversary, enemy, robber "
hun1 婚2360 38+8 03.4 (but) a marital, marriage-minded "
gou4 媾3426 38+10 03.4 suitor, prospect, groom*

So first there will be a period of suspicion, then trust will come.

Nina was also advised of being careful due to hex 29; this could be an argument to investigate, i.e. which is the danger ?

to sum it up : given all this data I and many others would not start the relationship, but Nina seems persuaded to pay for the initial costs of this relationship, I think the core meaning of the reading is this, there is a cost of initial suffering to be paid.
Given that, the choice is up to her.
 

nina

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Thanks for all your inputs... no it's not rose garden... I know that.

Well, following Pam's advice, I asked some more questions:

What are the prospects of a relationship with him?
Got 20.2.5 to 4
I take from this that Yi asks me to contemplate the situation, and my life, from a broader perspective. And 4 says to me that time is not ripe, the situation (and maybe also my attitude, by asking the Yi too often?) is at the beginnning ... foolish youth?!

Which attitude should I adopt right now?
57 unchanging

Should I tell him that we should see each other before going on holidays together?
21.2.4 to 41
I probably should take action, but have to find the right way (not too abrasive, but not too nice either), I guess?

Is there a path for us to be reiunited?
30.1.5 to 33
Is this a no? Or is it pointing at the sacrifice I would have to make to be with him, ie. the time of pain and suffering mentioned in 3.1.2 hex?

Will we be reunited in 2005?
24 unchanging.

Well, I am even more perplexed than I was before, so your inputs are more than welcome. And I know, this is a difficult situation most would walk away from, but as you know, when one is emotionally involved, it is easily said than done... -
happy.gif
... Well coming back to the Hex 4 I drew with the 1st question, I think I should put the issue to rest for the month of January, and see what early february brings in term of his intentions, and how I feel about me and my feelings as well as about him and his intentions. To come back to the tough woman of 3.2., I have decided for myself, that if February brings no occasion and concrete proposal to see each other (holiday/preliminary get together in my backyard etc) I will tell him this is the end of it and I do not want him to contact me anymore...

Nina
 

pargenton

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Nina,
the very fact we are discussing this matter, the quantity of words written, the number of oracle readings means it obviously is not an easy start for this relationship.

About ten years ago I went on holiday in Paris with my girlfriend of that time.
It was an ugly vacation, with discussions, anger and lot of negative feelings.
Anyway the relationship started; it was an extremely difficult relationship and nowadays I would stay miles away from relationships like that, but it started, in tears and anger, but it started.

It came to my mind as an image of what could be your holiday 3.1.2 - 29

As for 20.2.5 - 4

20.2 for me means you have a very limited perspective of what the relationship actually will be; i.e. you do not know deeply this man.

20.5 could be an advice to contemplate your life and decide what you really want.
Could mean : you have the choice.

4 as resulting/context hex could actually mean Yi thinks too much questions here :)
Ahem...
Really, I think the situation is clear, it won't be a honeymoon, the choice is up to you.
If you really want this relationship, go and be prepared for troubles, at least initially.
Should you decide for simpler things, fine, 20.5, you decide what is best for your life.
Peace
Paolo
 

jte

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Some very good comments on 3.2 above and I tend to agree. Also nice to see some folks also using Legge, don't see him quoted nearly enought around here ;-).

BUT - to my point, in this particular situation, has the 10 years perhaps already passed?

I know, that clouds matters instead of clarifying, but I thought it was worth pointing out as a possibility.

Thanks/sorry.

- Jeff
 

nina

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Thanks everybody for your very helpful insights! Well, Jte, I really hope that in this case the 10 years are about to pass, because, as I said earlier, I will wait until February, but I will not wait 10 more years (even metaphorically).
And in that specific case, it could well be that the refused offer is the offer for a trip to Italy I refused when he reappeared in my life 5 months ago, as I thought it was premature, (so I maintained my firm correctness, and have continued to do so).
Anyway, I will put this issue to rest and give the Yi a break until early February, and I will keep you all posted on the progress then, both on that front and on the Paris job issue I mentioned in another thread.

Thanks again -
happy.gif


Nina
 

jte

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Okay, Nina. P.S. I thought about this a bit more and it seems like if I was correct about the 10 years being past then 3.5 should be moving instead of 3.1. So now I'm even less confident about that thought being correct. Still worth thinking throught, though... Best of luck!

- Jeff
 

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