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40.2>16 about a potential medical issue

ichisue

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Hello all,

I have been lurking on this site now for around 15 years and have only posted one other time. I find the various interpretations and input provided here very helpful, as I tend to be a literal thinker and often have difficulty applying the advice to the specifics of my situation. However, in this case, I think perhaps I understand my reading, and I am looking for either confirmation or correction. I recognize the perils of health-related questions, but seeing as I am already following up with the appropriate medical care, I'm just asking more for your thoughts on my interpretation.

I recently had an abdominal ultrasound in which a possible renal mass was found, the specifics of which seem unfortunate. It was recommended that I have a CT scan to follow up, and this will happen soon, pending approval by my insurance. I do have a number of related health issues that could be potentially be explained by this; however, I am also of the mind that it is probably nothing. My question to the Yi was "Is this kidney thing a serious issue?"

Based on what I read in Wikiwing and from various other threads, my interpretation is that the CT scan will find nothing, and that the possible mass is not really there. I am basing this on the deceptiveness aspect of 40.2 and seeing through to the real issues. I mean, I see how a case could also be made that the scan will "see through" to the problem and thus I can address it and heal. But my gut instinct was that it was more "don't be fooled, this is not a serious issue."

I am open to whatever feedback anyone is willing to give, and would absolutely love if anyone who answers can sort of model their thinking out loud. I take a lot of notes from this site, and as a literal thinker, seeing the thought process "out loud" really helps me.

Thank you in advance for reading and for any feedback offered.
 

Lao_Tzu

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A thunderstorm comes during periods of warmth (possibly drought). Thus when thunder above water is illustrated, we interpret an immediate sense of relief. It is not surprising that you still feel a sense of unease - as the changing line's position is both early in the change and sitting in the center of turmoil - water. Anxious expectation of what may come similarly fits the trigram's description as the Autumn season. Winter is coming, which we now enter by moving into the hexagram of happiness. Specifically, the center of receptivity-to-experience (its lower trigram: Earth). The sages see this new position and think to themselves - firm as a rock.

When you cast this reading, you were delivered. Not because the Ching could reassure you by predicting an outcome, but because it could reflect and validate your immediate level of understanding. Both anxious negativity and optimistic positivity were slain by the weapon of knowledge (yellow arrow).

Now she waits firm as a rock for a length of time which is (in the grand scale) barely even a whole day.
 
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ichisue

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Thank you very much for your reply. I find it strangely encouraging.
A thunderstorm comes during periods of warmth (possibly drought). Thus when thunder above water is illustrated, we interpret an immediate sense of relief. It is not surprising that you still feel a sense of unease - as the changing line's position is both early in the change and sitting in the center of turmoil - water. Anxious expectation of what may come similarly fits the trigram's description as the Autumn season. Winter is coming, which we now enter by moving into the hexagram of happiness. Specifically, the center of receptivity-to-experience (its lower trigram: Earth). The sages see this new position and think to themselves - firm as a rock.

When you cast this reading, you were delivered. Not because the Ching could reassure you by predicting an outcome, but because it could reflect and validate your immediate level of understanding. Both anxious negativity and optimistic positivity were slain by the weapon of knowledge (yellow arrow).

Now she waits firm as a rock for a length of time which is (in the grand scale) barely even a whole day.
 

ichisue

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I wanted to provide an update on the situation: my CT scan was scheduled for earlier this week. I began drinking the barium liquid, only to go back and learn that I was also supposed to receive IV contrast. I have had a previous allergic reaction to iodine, so I was told that I would have to return home and be pre-medicated before taking the test. This was unfortunate, in that I had already drank part of the solution, which also gave me a reaction and made me very sick once I was home. So, I was relieved that they didn't allow me to go through with the test (though sad because the situation continues to drag on). It was also suggested that I switch to an MRI, as people are less likely to react to the dye. This switch requires new approval from my insurance as well. I was told to contact my doctor, who has yet to call me back, so I am again in a loop of waiting for circumstances to clarify, mixed with anxiety about the possible reaction. And of course, I still have no confirmation about the possible mass in my kidney. I will update further as the situation progresses.
 

bluemoongrl

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Unrelated to the hexagram, I just wanted to offer moral support. I had treatment for cancer (lymphoma) last year, the diagnosis of which began just as the pandemic hit. Waiting for tests and the outcome of tests was the most difficult part for me. Plus, I'm smart enough that I could tell the doctors were grooming me for a cancer diagnosis--they kept kind of hinting at it in the most annoying and unhelpful way (it just made me more scared). It just wrapped me up with a sense of dread and the fear of the unknown. Truthfully, it still is triggered when I have to go get my PET scans every 6 months to see if the cancer has returned.

Personally for me, knowing specifically my diagnosis, knowing the treatments and the odds, and going through chemo was more direct and easier to deal with emotionally than the waiting and not knowing. I think, at least for me, when a path offers definition and action it is just easier to handle emotionally compared with not knowing and waiting.

I hope you can find some peace in this time of waiting for a diagnosis. And when your tests come back, I hope you have a clear and easy approach to what is ailing you so that you can get back to a healthy life!
 

ichisue

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Thank you, @bluemoongrl; it is so kind and thoughtful of you to reach out like that, and I am so sorry to hear about your cancer. I really hope that you stay in remission and that every follow up test is clear. Being sick sucks.

I relate to absolutely everything you are saying; the waiting is definitely the toughest part, and my PCP is very overworked and uncommunicative. I'm not even totally sure if she's ordered the MRI because she hasn't called me back. It's tough. I need to leave my apartment by the end of the month, and I was hoping to know one way or another by Tuesday so I could make plans of where to move, and...it just didn't happen. I am in a total free fall.

I am also super nervous about having a reaction to the test itself, and I'm still dealing with the fallout of the barium drink, so it's all stressful. I'm just trying to find my peace within chaos, which is of course easier said than done. I am trying to look at it as an opportunity to grow my character and address my anxious tendencies, and to just trust in the flow of life. I'm in one of those times where every little thing seems to be going wrong, and it's so absurd I have to laugh so I don't cry.

Your message was really touching, and I appreciate it a lot. Thank you for thinking of me and offering your support. I'll definitely be sending you healing energy and good thoughts.
 

dfreed

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"Is this kidney thing a serious issue?" RESPONSE: 40.2 > 16

... my interpretation is that the CT scan will find nothing, and that the possible mass is not really there. I am basing this on the deceptiveness aspect of 40.2 and seeing through to the real issues.

I don't see any 'deceptiveness' with Line 40.2.

With Hex. 40, you have Water as the lower trigram (lower three lines). In traditional Chinese medicine trigram Water is related to the kidneys, and with the 2nd line moving, this could indicate an imbalance, but one that may be in the early stages. This changes to Earth - the lower trigram of Hex. 16, which might indicate that there is a 'down-to-earth' solution to what's going on with you. Trigram Earth is also about caring and nurturing, and it makes me wonder if it's a (wake-up) call for you to take better care of yourself - as Mother Earth might do towards her children?

The text for 40.2 reads:
In the hunting field, getting three foxes. Bronze arrows. Augury Auspicious. (Translation, Richard Rutt)

Perhaps this is about 'hunting' for this imbalance - trying to find out what is happening with you, and your 'possible renal mass' and the 'number of related health issues' you mention.

The lower nuclear trigram (lines 2,3,4) is Fire/ Flame, and it indicates to me that you need to shine a light on what's happening, to see what's going on, and gain some clarity about it! In traditional Asian medical diagnosis (e.g. China, Tibet), they might read your pulses or examining your urine, etc., but here in the west we use tests (blood, urine), and CT scans and MRIs to 'see' (shine a light on) what's going on.

When we're hunting for game, we need to be aware, and also have the right tools - like a bronze arrow - to achieve our goal. The same applies here - but in your case, this 'hunt' is inward.

The upper trigram in both Hex. 40 and Hex. 16 is Thunder - this denotes shock or our reaction to what is new or shocking: with Hex. 40, it seems you may be a bit shocked - perhaps fearful - about your situation and your not knowing; but with Hex 16, perhaps Thunder becomes more of an unexpected, joyful response: maybe that you learn you are okay, or even if you have something amiss, it will end up okay!

And this also reminds me of the 'wake-up call' to take better care of yourself that I mentioned above!

This brings to mind words from Hex. 51, Thunder, and how they apply to your situation - the 'change' from 40 to 16: "shaking comes, frightening, frightening, then laughing words, shouting shouting!" (Translation, Stephen Karcher)


I hope that's of some use to you. Best, D
 
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ichisue

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I don't see any 'deceptiveness' with 40.2?

With Hex. 40, you have Water as the lower trigram (lower three lines). In traditional Chinese medicine trigram Water is related to the kidneys, and with the 2nd line moving, this could indicate an imbalance, but one that may be in the early stages. This changes to Earth (the lower trigram of 16), which could indicate that there is a down-to-earth solution to what's going on with you. Trigram Earth is also about caring and nurturing, and it makes me wonder if it's a call for your to take better care of yourself - as Mother Earth might do towards her children?

The text for 40.2 reads:
In the hunting field, getting three foxes. Bronze arrows. Augury Auspicious. (Translation, Richard Rutt)

Perhaps this is about 'hunting' for this imbalance - trying to find out what is happening with you, and your 'possible renal mass' and the 'number of related health issues' you mention.

The lower nuclear trigram (lines 2,3,4) is Fire/ Flame, and it indicates to me that you need to shine a light on what's happening, to see what's going on, and gain some clarity about it! In traditional Asian medical diagnosis (e.g. China, Tibet), they might read your pulses or examining your urine, etc., but here in the west we use tests (blood, urine), and CT scans and MRIs to 'see' (shine a light on) what's going on.

When we're hunting for game, we need to be aware (in your case, inwardly), and also have the right tools - like a bronze arrow - to achieve our goal. The same applies in your case.

The upper trigram in both Hex. 40 and Hex. 16 is Thunder - this denotes shock or our reaction to what is new or shocking: with Hex. 40, it seems you may be a bit shocked - perhaps fearful - about your situation and your not knowing; but with Hex 16, perhaps Thunder becomes more like an unexpected joyful response, perhaps that you learn you are okay, or even if you have something amiss, it will end up okay!

This brings to mind words from Hex. 51, Thunder, and how they apply to your situation - the 'change' from 40 to 16: "shaking comes, frightening, frightening, then laughing words, shouting shouting!" (Translation, Stephen Karcher.)


I hope that's of some use to you. Best, D
@dfreed Thank you so much for your thorough explanation, and for connecting the hexes to TCM; this is super helpful for me and it gives me a lot to think about. I really appreciate you taking the time to model your thinking for me - it really helps me to learn. Do you also think the possible "game" I could be hunting might be the mass itself, i.e. this is the cause of my other issues, or do you think it is more general, i.e. the game is my health itself? As for the deceptiveness, I gathered that from reading previous threads where the line came up in that context, but I see you disagree. What is your take on the line?
 

dfreed

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Do you also think the possible "game" I could be hunting might be the mass itself, i.e. this is the cause of my other issues, or do you think it is more general, i.e. the game is my health itself? As for the deceptiveness, I gathered that from reading previous threads where the line came up in that context, but I see you disagree. What is your take on the line?
(I did a bit of editing above, so make sure to take another look!)

Of course the 'game' and the 'hunting' can be (or is) about looking for the mass or whatever is causing an imbalance. That's why I mentioned it. (And I think that's what the MRI and CT scan are about.) As to more details, I really don't know. There are people who are more well versed at using the Yi for medical diagnosis, but that's not something I know much more about.

Some may disagree, but I think that any line or any reading can be (or is) different, based on the situation that we're asking about. So if I get 40.2 >16 when I am asking about which college to attend, it would be telling me something different, and it wouldn't be about CT scans! And when I go for my next colonoscopy they will be using a different 'light' than the one they are using with you!

For you, I sense / feel / see that 40.2 is about 'hunting' - finding out what's going on; and using the correct tool(s) for this; and a 'bronze arrow' may be about getting down to Earth (bronze, the color of yellow soil) or it's about a shiny 'bright' arrow (tool, object) which provides clarity ....

But I'm just not seeing or sensing 'deception' in the line, unless perhaps I asked: 'what is it that my neighbor is deceiving me about?" In that case, it could be about deception!

I hope that answers your questions.

Best, D.
 
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ichisue

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(I did a bit of editing above, so make sure to take another look!)

Of course the 'game' and the 'hunting' can be (or is) about looking for the mass or whatever is causing an imbalance. That's why I mentioned it. (And I think that's what the MRI and CT scan are about.) As to more details, I really don't know. There are people who are more well versed at using the Yi for medical diagnosis, but that's not something I know much more about.

Some may disagree, but I think that any line or any reading can be (or is) different, based on the situation that we're asking about. So if I get 40.2 >16 when I am asking about which college to attend, it would be telling me something different, and it wouldn't be about CT scans! And when I go for my next colonoscopy they will be using a different 'light' than the one they are using with you!

For you, I sense / feel / see that 40.2 is about 'hunting' - finding out what's going on; and using the correct tool(s) for this; and a 'bronze arrow' may be about getting down to Earth (bronze, the color of yellow soil) or it's about a shiny 'bright' arrow (tool, object) which provides clarity ....

But I'm just not seeing or sensing 'deception' in the line, unless perhaps I asked: 'what is it that my neighbor is deceiving me about?" In that case, it could be about deception!

I hope that answers your questions.

FYI - a tip: when you post a reading, I think it's good to include the Hexagrams, lines in the title or at least at the beginning of your thread, so we don't have to hunt and peck for it. No biggie, just a thought.

Best, D.
@dfreed Thank you for clarifying. On my post is shows "40.2>16 about a potential medical issue." Is that not what you see? Or did you mean that I should include the hex and lines in some different way?
 

dfreed

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On my post is shows "40.2>16 about a potential medical issue."
Sorry. Me bad. I missed that you ‘spelled it out’. Disregard my ‘tip’ (which I have erased) but my interpretation still stands. Does that clear it up?
 
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ichisue

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Just a brief update to say that not much has happened. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, I had asked my provider to expedite the request for the MRI. Unfortunately, they did not, and I will likely not hear back until the middle of next week. I need to be out of my current apartment, and despite nearly 3 months of searching, I have not found a place here that I can stay. So it looks like I'll be relocating, either temporarily or permanently; so, unless things change, I won't be getting this test (at least for a while). My provider did say that these masses can be common, and since mine is unconfirmed, it may not be that big of a deal. Here's hoping, because this period of time has been intensely chaotic, with little in the way of concrete answers or directions to go.

If I do end up getting the test at some point, I'll be sure to update again. Thanks to all who offered interpretations, and to those who chimed in just to root for me - I appreciate you.
 

ariel13

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Just a brief update to say that not much has happened. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, I had asked my provider to expedite the request for the MRI. Unfortunately, they did not, and I will likely not hear back until the middle of next week. I need to be out of my current apartment, and despite nearly 3 months of searching, I have not found a place here that I can stay. So it looks like I'll be relocating, either temporarily or permanently; so, unless things change, I won't be getting this test (at least for a while). My provider did say that these masses can be common, and since mine is unconfirmed, it may not be that big of a deal. Here's hoping, because this period of time has been intensely chaotic, with little in the way of concrete answers or directions to go.

If I do end up getting the test at some point, I'll be sure to update again. Thanks to all who offered interpretations, and to those who chimed in just to root for me - I appreciate you.
Hi ichisue,
By chance do you have any additional update now that it's been a few months? I just received this same reading in regards to a medical test I am also waiting on results for... Hope you are well and everything turned out ok.

Best,
Jen
 

ichisue

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Hi ichisue,
By chance do you have any additional update now that it's been a few months? I just received this same reading in regards to a medical test I am also waiting on results for... Hope you are well and everything turned out ok.

Best,
Jen
Hi Jen,

Unfortunately since I relocated, I have been unable to access healthcare. So I have nothing that could really help you; never got to have the test, so not sure what is going on with the mass. I'm not entirely sure how to interpret my answer in light of that - maybe the warning interpretation offered above would be the way to look at it.

I really hope your results shake out in the same manner. Maybe as just a shock and a warning, or possibly a false alarm.

I'm sorry I couldn't be more help, but I wish you the best of health.
 

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