41 ->50

[hollis]

Couple of days ago I read something, about conscious and unconscious reason for breaking bonds of trust, and i felt this statement pertained to me, and wondered what unconscious motives were for undermining a bond of trust, so i was moved to go to the YJ and ask what are the unconscious motives for that , anyway. To uncover some of that...since the question seemed fresh....and was real to my heart....

granted it was a bit of a large area to cover for a reading but thought i would give it a shot

and i got 41 turning into 50, lines 1 3 and 4

and i thought this seems more like an cure for the breech, not the reason...

i would love some feedback or thoughts on this, if anyone is so inspired...

thank you.

 

[bruce_g]

Hi Hollis. I've really been enjoying your comments here lately.

Not much time right now to look at this deeply, but off the top of my head it looks a bit like avoidance of commitment, in order to maintain a sense of self. Perhaps fear of being merged into group identity. This does look a bit like self sabotage, which can preserve and secure your independence.

Does that click with you?

 

[bruce_g]

more time than I thought...

I think the specific answers or reasons your looking for would be determined by exactly how these bonds are being broken; i.e. if you cause the other person to walk away or to reject you, that can imply one area of reasoning. If you are the one walking away, that can imply something else. See what I'm saying? I think this can get pretty complicated. There may even be psycho-sexual possibilities.

 

[hollis]

!

Thanks Bruce! I have liked your comments too! Liked that quite a bit about 40 line 6 and crack addiction, by the way. Really gave me a jolt when I read that, and I wanted to ask you more about it.

What you write here is very very interesting, something I never would have thought of, which, I guess , is why I put it out here.

I was going in a totally different direction with the reading but what you have said here makes me want to re-think this and I will write more later!

Thanks!

 

[hollis]

the lines

bruce i kinda think you nailed it,

&

overall i think my question was far too broad, and perhaps there was some self immolation in the desire behind asking of it, but I always find reading the Clarity archives helpful, particularly about the lines. often when in the middle of one I cant see the gist of it. so i will write this here for anyone who reads the archives and is thinking about the lines. not that it will be true for them, but whatever.

so, for the sake of the lines, here is what i am thinking, from the wilhelm translation:

line 1 of 41 sacrifices of itself to serve the 4th line, the 4th line has to think of the sacrifice of the first line.

the first line is happy to do so, but if the 4th line does not recieve the offering correctly, the service of the first is misused, and distrust may develop.

also, it may be, that the 1st line gives far too much to the 4th line, overextends it's reach, in a desire to reach it. so a breech could happen here. again, of expectation.

these are subtle expectations that underlie any bond of trust.

all of the bonds of trust depicted here in these lines are conditional, none of them show an ideal of unconditional trust.

trust, a bond of faith, should be earned, and should never be given unconditioanlly, unless there is some exceptional circumstance, say that of a mystic like john the baptist or someone like that. but even someone who throws themself into flames has a mental practice that allows that.

line 3, 6 in the third place, wilhelm says that the top line of the trigram has left and gone to the top. so there is some abandonment here.

one of the lines could feel very threatened about that! but the trust here is to be gained in the tao, for the law of the tao says that if there are three, one will decrease, and if there is one, she will find a partner.

so trust must be given to the tao, not the fluctuations of hierarchy, etc.

so that is a little lesson to help the ego quiet down. the ego that will feel threatened by being left, and will then undermine a bond of trust.

the 4th line is fenced in by two weak lines, but he can get help from the first line, who is happy to help him if he gives up some of his weakness.

doubt is weakness, if the 4th line gives up his doubt (the hexagram is of offering when one has little to get the blessing of the divine)

the first line is very happy to help him.


so i think underlying the breech of trust are yes self serving interests, but only because there was not enough trust in the first place, and the trust was in the personalities, not the tao, for if the trust lied in the tao, there would be lots of flow and happiness.

 

[bruce_g]

Hi Hollis,

Thanks for giving this thought, and for getting back to me/us on it.

Interesting how you processed this, bringing the matter into an impersonal philosophical realm, almost leaving yourself out of the equation. chuckling... that's ok, keeping private stuff private is sometimes the wisest thing to do.

Undermining our own success is something some of us have honed to an art form, even or especially when it operates on a subconscious level. That way we can hide it even from ourselves. I guess we just don't deserve to have a full Ting .

Learning how to receive, for some of us, is perhaps life's hardest lesson. If we can just manage to find ways to blow it, we can avoid it altogether. But, the laws of tao, as you put it, won't let us move on until we learn that lesson.

 

[hollis]

geesh.

gees that's great bruce.

love it.

let me chew on that for a bit.

be back laytah.

 

[hollis]

honestly

look bruce, i gotta be honest with you. when i first got the reading, i thought it said, chuck that bond, go do what you wanna do, it wasnt good in the first place!

but im thinking about it very differently now, it's good.

if i can bring myself to get around to the personal here, i will.

 

[bruce_g]

look bruce, i gotta be honest with you. when i first got the reading, i thought it said, chuck that bond, go do what you wanna do, it wasnt good in the first place!

but im thinking about it very differently now, it's good.

if i can bring myself to get around to the personal here, i will.

I'm very glad you found it helpful. There's no need to disclose your personal information on this, if you're not entirely comfortable doing so. I've found it can come back to haunt you sometimes. If you'd like, you can always PM me. But I think you're very capable of working it out.

 

[Tohpol]

Couple of days ago I read something, about conscious and unconscious reason for breaking bonds of trust, and i felt this statement pertained to me, and wondered what unconscious motives were for undermining a bond of trust, so i was moved to go to the YJ and ask what are the unconscious motives for that , anyway. To uncover some of that...since the question seemed fresh....and was real to my heart....

granted it was a bit of a large area to cover for a reading but thought i would give it a shot

and i got 41 turning into 50, lines 1 3 and 4

and i thought this seems more like an cure for the breech, not the reason...

i would love some feedback or thoughts on this, if anyone is so inspired...

thank you.

Hi Hollis,

This is one of my classic hexagrams of this year and one in which I battered my ego against for sometime. The IC patiently served it up again and again until I finally got it.

Boy, that was (and is) a tough nut to crack. It's tough because I think it concerns energy in a very specific sense. Of course, all is energy flow and interaction, exchange, disbursement or a drain and contraction - but in this hex the decrease seems to me to often refer to the investment of energy we have given to a relationship, a group, a company etc. that is very imbalanced, largely due to our blindspots housed within our refusal to see things clearly. Lots of emotions flying around and addictive ones at that.

In 41 trust, love, friendship, desire, fear and belonging can really pack a punch and give some hope for renewal if we can survive that process. In my own situation, as you know , I desperately wanted to stay with an organisation and around the people that formed it to the extent that it was detrimental to my own health because esstentially, I wasn't up to it and wasn't doing it for the right reasons.

Trust is a biggie isn't it? So few us are really able to trust ourselves, let alone others. Mind you, more often than not this is a sensible protective measure. But knowing when to swallow pride and to take the bird's eye view on notions of trust and TRUE assistance is a tricky one to cultivate isn't it? We must trust this "Tao" to take the reins gently in a clear and unequivocal manner sometimes. Not to be unduly passive but a bit like Hex 33 - retreat when it is for the good of the other and to preserve one's integrity. And of course our Egos don't like that. The personality wants to get in there with both feet, whether its giving all or taking all, unconsciously or not.

Line 1 for me, has that quality of gentleness but with a powerful principle of nature and the creative order that is maintained by holding back and accumulating inner worth - soul enrichment. It's a line concerned with simplicity and economy of thought and action - especially emotions with the possibility for purification. Once we do that it can lead onto the natural increase of 42 . Let it go and it becomes the beginning of addiction all over again. (emptying the cauldron of 50.1 so that we can give it a damn good clean)

Line 3 is a that mid-way point where a partial balance has been achieved and energy has been accumulated in order to be creative and initiate new ways forward. That seems to happen because there has been the needed decentralisation of what we want towards what we need, in a higher sense. But there's the possibility that line 3 represents that wobbly fulcrum which can mean we can slip back into increasing before the time is right without having enough reserves and thus leading to imbalance and addiction again. (50.3 - the white-hot emotions are running wild and the cauldron is too hot to touch)

Line 4 seems to say to be effective we have to address our own deficits first, then the natural clustering together of help where help is truly needed and shared can be found. It seems to be a bit like finding resonance within our selves which sets up the correct signal for others to be "attracted." if we are blocked with all those emotions seeking sustenance and release by what we perceive to be "help" the exchange sought will remain in the distance. (50.4 all that good energy being wasted)

Once we attend to ourselves the support will come to us and then we'll be able to return it in all kinds of imaginative ways. The complexity has to be untangled and simplified first, then we can approach the complexity step by step in order to achieve that "effortless" to our actions, that Tao which allows us to respond to the Universe and flow with its creative stream. Meantime, we're just like an obstacle being buffeted by all kinds of waves but stubbornly holding on because we don't have the energy to move from our spot nor the perspicacity to see beyond it.

I guess this is why Hex 50 is so appropriate here. It seems to often be a snapshot of our life and the renewing of vital energy. How can we build this vitality so that it is constantly bubbling away and creating order out of chaos?

41 is really important for me right now. Learning to simplify when you want to give all and be all for everyone is not easy, especially when pride and long ignored patterns of behaviour are involved. I guess we have to be discerning and prudent and let it simmer for quite a while before we can have the required energy to be all we can be. Once we are bubbling away and can control and regulate the heat then we act with assurance.

That's the way I see it right now.

Thanks for sharing.

topal

 

[hollis]

Remarkable that you have history with 41 to 50, Topal, in a situation not so dissimilar from mine. Thanks so much for sharing, this is a gift.

imbalanced energy, yes. refusal to see things clearly, yes. "The personality wants to get in there with both feet, whether its giving all or taking all, unconsciously or not." yes.

Thank you for integrating energy and personality in your reading, I benefit from your process, as I tend to see things in terms of personality, not energy, and it is helpful.

"Line 4 seems to say to be effective we have to address our own deficits first, then the natural clustering together of help where help is truly needed and shared can be found."

this is the fulcrum of the transition, for me, and where I rest with it. reduce faults, and the rest will follow. "send a message" one translation says. there is real hope here, in reducing faults and the gladness of the other side to get the message.

I very much enjoy your posts, and look forward to reading more of your work here in the future.

:bows:
hollis

 

[Trojina]

Well I know this thread is pretty much wrapped up with all satisfied, buuut my niggle is over 41,1. In my experience what 41,1 is supposed to mean ie issues of give and take etc they just never fit. Quite frankly 41,1 I have come to see as pretty much rejection cos the other person can't be bothered anymore, their interest lies elsewhere.

Perhaps this is just another shade of give and take theme. If taken very literally we only have so much room in our lives for friends etc, sometimes we have to get rid of old relationships to make way for new. I guess we usually experience this as unfortunate, generally its not pleasant, but rows etc can be the catalyst we need to break with someone its not good to be around anymore.

Regarding the whole question of the reason behind betraying a trust, my first thought was one may betray a trust to break the relationship because it does not serve one anymore. Its certainly not the ideal way to lose someone from your life, anymore than a row is, but sometimes one hasn't even articulated to oneself that it really is best if the asssociation were over. After all when one betrays a trust one knows what the likley consequence will be so I can't help but think that that maybe the hidden intention behind the betrayal in the first place.

So I think I see 41,1 as more about 'the relationship doesn't serve' rather than one person taking too much from another etc.

 

[lightofreason]

Couple of days ago I read something, about conscious and unconscious reason for breaking bonds of trust, and i felt this statement pertained to me, and wondered what unconscious motives were for undermining a bond of trust, so i was moved to go to the YJ and ask what are the unconscious motives for that , anyway. ...
and i got 41 turning into 50, lines 1 3 and 4.

this configuration covers alchemical processes and as such, from an IC+ perspective, reads "with/from concentration, distillation comes transformation"

The transformation can be positive or negative depending on how the 'decrease' goes, do we get true distillation or does it all turn out 'crap'? ;-)

Line positions 1, 3, and 4 are controlled by hexagram 55 and as such, using XOR, we see the 55-ness of 41 is described by analogy to 50. Thus diversity is manifest in 41 as transformation and this reflects the dynamic of genetic diversity as a form of 'ideal' expression that can transform rather than allow-in decay/decadence (as keeping this too pure can - the price of purity is stagnation, decadence, decay and so the need for
'fresh blood' to maintain development).

In the context of trust, diversity rules and so does context sensitivities such that idealising trust can cause issues where contexts that demand the 'flexibility' of trust are ignored as we try to force the ideal, the universal, to fit some local context where, without some local adjustements, it wont fit!

Of course, if you used magical/random methods to get the 41->50 then there are 4095 other aspects that will also be meaningful in describing things ;-)

Chris.

 

[hollis]

Well I know this thread is pretty much wrapped up with all satisfied,

are you kidding? I am THRILLED you have started the ball rolling again.

buuut my niggle is over 41,1. In my experience what 41,1 is supposed to mean ie issues of give and take etc they just never fit.

it's an awkward position. this position indicates that the abandoning cannot be clean. something is really left in the lurch if you do so, and you have to weigh the effect carefully. i agree the give and take dont just fit.

Quite frankly 41,1 I have come to see as pretty much rejection cos the other person can't be bothered anymore, their interest lies elsewhere.

Yes, indifference was shown to me, after i had shown some off hand indifference, ... and so the story goes.

After all when one betrays a trust one knows what the likley consequence will be

what about a child who wishes a parent would die when the parent is insensitive. is that a betrayal?

 

[hollis]

this configuration covers alchemical processes and as such, from an IC+ perspective, reads "with/from concentration, distillation comes transformation"

The transformation can be positive or negative depending on how the 'decrease' goes, do we get true distillation or does it all turn out 'crap'? ;-)

Line positions 1, 3, and 4 are controlled by hexagram 55 and as such, using XOR, we see the 55-ness of 41 is described by analogy to 50. Thus diversity is manifest in 41 as transformation and this reflects the dynamic of genetic diversity as a form of 'ideal' expression that can transform rather than allow-in decay/decadence (as keeping this too pure can - the price of purity is stagnation, decadence, decay and so the need for
'fresh blood' to maintain development).

In the context of trust, diversity rules and so does context sensitivities such that idealising trust can cause issues where contexts that demand the 'flexibility' of trust are ignored as we try to force the ideal, the universal, to fit some local context where, without some local adjustements, it wont fit!

Of course, if you used magical/random methods to get the 41->50 then there are 4095 other aspects that will also be meaningful in describing things ;-)

Chris.

Holy cow, this is brilliant. This is just right on the money. Wow. How does this stuff come to you?

 

[hollis]

In the context of trust, diversity rules and so does context sensitivities such that idealising trust can cause issues where contexts that demand the 'flexibility' of trust are ignored as we try to force the ideal, the universal, to fit some local context where, without some local adjustements, it wont fit!

Chris.

That's it.

 

[hollis]

Of course, if you used magical/random methods to get the 41->50 then there are 4095 other aspects that will also be meaningful in describing things ;-)

Chris.

What do you mean by this? What is a magical/random method? And more importantly, what isn't?

I don't think I need 4095 other aspects that will be meaningful in describing things, but then maybe I am kidding myself and do, since I am of a certain age, wearing polyester and frye boots from the salvation army thrift store, with studded fat white belts, hiding my comb over, eating krisy crumbs off my blouse at walmart, and still throwing the I Ching.

 

[Trojina]

it's an awkward position. this position indicates that the abandoning cannot be clean. something is really left in the lurch if you do so, and you have to weigh the effect carefully. i agree the give and take dont just fit.

what about a child who wishes a parent would die when the parent is insensitive. is that a betrayal?

Yes I agree about the indication that the abandoning 'cannot be clean' as you put it. More than once with this line its seemed out and out rejection to me, ah well fact of life I guess, sometimes one is rejected, sometimes one does the rejecting, but it hurts on the receiving end doesn't it. I think many interpretations dress this line up too much in philosophical musings, still it might take the pain out of rejection to have some philosophical musing I guess. Interpretations talking about leaving ones own work to help another, well I don't know how that comes in at all. (just on own experience that is which is lengthy though not scholarly)

Ooh re child wishing parent were dead, no I don't see that as a betrayal. I wouldn't even see it as a betrayal in an adult. I think of betrayal as breaking trust or a promise. But wishing someone dead is just an emotional thing, can't see how its a betrayal, well I guess some might. But I'm thinking a concrete deliberate betrayal like cheating on your husband etc means at some level at least you don't mind risking the loss of him - and maybe subconsciously inviting it.

BTW Chris thinks shaking coins and all those ways of divining are pretty misguided cos all answers are applicable and it makes more sense to use his 'best fit' method.

 

[hollis]

BTW Chris thinks shaking coins and all those ways of divining are pretty misguided cos all answers are applicable and it makes more sense to use his 'best fit' method.

Thanks Trojan, for all the above, believe it or not, just a few sentences in your last statement cleared up more of this situation for me. Where the trust was broken, where it was not. Emotions can feel so real.

Please excuse the blackout, but I have no idea what Chris' "best fit" method is. Maybe there is a link somewhere that will answer my question?

 

[lightofreason]

What do you mean by this? What is a magical/random method? And more importantly, what isn't?

;-) - the IC+ perspective stems from IDM (Integration, Differentiation, and Meaning - http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introIDM.html )

The basics are in identifying the source of meaning and in so doing then working on the structure and dynamics of metaphor - all from a neurological perspective, IOW given what the brain does how do we derive, for example, the I Ching? How do such systems elicit 'value' when Western institutionalised Science says such systems are rubbish?

The IDM work shows (a) how the I Ching works and (b) a LOT of material not covered in the traditional texts since they did not understand what was going on (since to achieve such understanding required a level of research only possible today).

Thus the 'ancients' did a good job but missed a lot and used rich metaphors to try and describe what they sensed. Thus the traditional material is made up of (a) sensations/feelings in need of description and (b) references (analogies) to LOCAL histories, legends, mythologies to try and describe those sensations/feelings.

Included in this was association of the use of magical/random methods to link some moment with an I Ching hexagram. (magical/random methods are any method associated with coins, yarrow sticks, marbles, 'dropping the book to open at some page', etc etc where such an act gives us a hexagram supposidly exactly fitting the situation)

The fact is (a) there is no meaning without a question, this is a property associated with the neurology and how we focus attention. (b) the I Ching is a metaphor for what the brain deals with but in the form of qualities derived from the dynamics of the neurology (c) the WHOLE of the I Ching applies as a FILTER for any moment and ALL hexagrams are valid meanings as universals BUT LOCAL context then sorts those universals into best-fit/worst-fit order (d) our consciousness is intense, focused, bounded, and attracted to 7+/- 'things' at any moment and as such is not aware of the 'string' of 64/4096 best-fit-to-worst-fit orderings. (e) given 'miraculous/random' methods our consciousness will consider the resulting hexagram the 'best fit' when there is no guarantee of such - but since all hexagrams contribute to the meaning of the situation, even the worst fit, so any hexagram derived will be found to be 'meaningful' even if needing some 'encouragement' by one's belief system.

The issues then come down to consistancy in that the miraculous/random methods are like trying to predict snow in the sahara - there IS a probability of such but it is not 'all of the time'! Consideration of what is happening neurologically, emotionally, we can in fact get the IC to work well, bne consistent, and within the bounds of 'scientifically acceptable' through the use of questions - see the experiment "The Emotional I Ching":

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/EmotionalIC.html

Further work covering the properties and methods of self-referencing and the dynamics of difference/sameness representations in symmetric/asymmetric forms, brings out a LOT of details in that, since the IC stems from self-referencing, so we can get the IC to describe itself - as covered in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html

(all of the mentioned links/pages above are in fact linked off the new, trial, Java applet page for IC+ :

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/freemindbrowser.html )

so - magical/random methods will give you an ASPECT of the situation. It is possible to get the 'best fit' but it will not be consistant and best-fit - 5 could easily be interpreted as the 'best fit' etc.

Knowing how the brain works in dealing with novelty allows us to use the I Ching filter in a more precise way through use of generic questions - and especially so when we focus on emotions where they derive from self-referencing of fight/flight and, through IDM associations, fit yin/yang categories.

All of this gets into issues of difference/sameness, asymmetric/symmetric mappings, metaphor/analogy creation use, formation of universals (hexagrams etc) and their customisation by local context.

For coverage of self-referencing of emotions see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/emote.html (this link is also in the EmotionalIC pages)

Chris.