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41.6

Trojina

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I'm needing some help with this line. I've thought about it so much and none of the commentaries I've read, none at all, shed much light for me in its application and when i woke up last night thinking on it :blush: I decided to ask here


It brings to mind an image of someone striving for public good, being self sacrificial and as a reward ?? not having a home but many followers or servants. It always brings me to the possibly superficial thought of 'well actually I don't want followers or servants I'd rather have a home !'. Hmm of course we are not many of us I imagine collecting followers and servants - or are that keen on not having no separate home. Why does the subject of the line have no dwelling ? Is it meant to be a good thing ? Perhaps it means he is at home everywhere ? Do you think that is a possibility ? Perhaps I have been mistakenly viewing the 'no separate home' as a deprivation ?
And what is really meant by the 'followers and servants' that come to serve one ? How do you see these ?

I'm also confused about the increase/decrease dynamic here. Earlier lines in this hexagram warn of not giving it all away, considering your own needs also. In line 6 are you counselled to cease being concerned with your own needs because you now have enough ? Is it saying now you can give to others without worrying about your own decrease in giving ? Or is it saying as long as you receive from others without decreasing them there is no blame. There seems to be differing stresses placed on the giving/receiving in different commentaries.

Does it advise you to give or receive generously - or both ? But to recap why should you lose your dwelling in that process ?

Either way I've struggled with this line for some time now so I'd appreciate anyones thoughts on it, or experience with it, very much :D
 

frank_r

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hello trojan,

41.6 for me means that the time of decrease is over, it is behind me. I can be aware of this feeling and there is also backing up from other places and persons(in this case lines 5 and 3,both yin, come to help and will confirm this).

Trigram mountain is changing in trigram earth. Both element earth, but is mountain earth from a personal perspective trigram earth is from a overall perspective so it will be confirmed by many.

Trigram earth is also heavy and wants to go down, so the trigram lake in the inside, metal can be felt better than before.
So you know now what has been decreased, and than there can be a new start of increasing at the start of 42.
Although it is not a whole new start of something, 41.6 changing in 19 the time of starting of spring but not of a new year what is 24.

The 6 th line is also the line of the wise, the most heavenly line there is. The 6th line is a yin spot so as being a yang line he doesn't feel at home. So he is there for the idea's. Here he has help from the fifth, the ruler and the third the most ambitious one, they are both yin on a yang spot so they also feel not at home. So they all share this feeling as nothing being at home. So all three need a goal, a purpose, and because these two lines(5 and 3) know what it is to be in a situation of decrease because they already went throught it, the 6th line is finding a new home(6 yang will be yin and be at home at a yin place) for his new idea's and now he can create a situation what is all about increase.
In the fan jao 19 - 6 you can see that this new idea's can develop well.

Hope this will give you some new angles. Frank
 
B

bruce_g

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hermit crab? chuckling.. ;) Love the caricatures.

Here's how I see it:

41 decreases self interest for the sake of the whole, and line 6 discovers that relinquishing self culminates in gaining the whole. There's no home or self, per se, to call your own, but it is as if the whole world is at your service.
 
L

lightofreason

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41.6 - some musings:

this is a hexagram that includes coverage of alchemy issues where the 'decrease' is both positive in the form of concentrating, distilling, and negative when such action can fail and we get 'true' decrease - a pile of rubbish!

The PAIR of hexagrams covered here from a structural perspective (binary sequence) is that of 19,41 - BOTH cover the sense of refinement, replication etc that comes with mirroring, replicating etc, a trait of lake. As such both contain 'approaching the high', the considered refined etc.

19 is unconditional in its mixing of high and low to elicit a concentration, a social alchemy if you like - whereas 41 is particular and so conditional in its action.

Line position 6 is in all hexagrams is controlled by hexagram 23 and its focus on pruning. Thus the 23-ness of 41 is described by analogy to the characteristics of 19 - the act of pruning expressed THROUGH concentrating, distilling, comes out as an act of approaching the high, defering to the low.

IF we review the infrastructure of 41.6 we have:

110001-110000
100001-100001
------------------
010000-010001

With/from uniforming comes masking. The generic 'vibe' here covers issues with socialisation moving from the general (all rules come from outside) to particular (personal preferences emerge as quality control - experience gives us internal rules)

The social aspect brings out the 'touring guru' aspect present here - the Dali Lama tours the world, he has no home (or cannot 'settle')

As a sum of wave forms, 41 = 23 + 19(which is also 24 + 07). And so quality control in a context of approaching the high/deferring to the low and so bringing out the sense of 'distilling, concentrating' as well as true decrease (23 covers the last bastion of order prior to total collapse - we MUST prune to prevent such a collapse etc)

24 - a cycle, what we come back to, a beginning, a re-birth(born again) etc
07 - uniformity, rules come in general from the outside, the individual has no say (as in the Army etc)
also include:

27 (23+24 - 1+6)
04 (23+07 - 2+6)

All of these reflect the combinations of yang lines and so actualisation in 41. (110001)

Chris.
 

rosada

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Interesting that you mention "touring guru," Chris. I was reading about Mother Theresa just before looking here. Anyway, seems to me there is something here about it being the nature of Decrease that when carried to the ultimate extreme it results in one's losing their sence of being a separate enity. The person no longer experiences themselves as a separate ego with separate likes and dislikes and therefore they do not manefest a separate home? I note that the next line, 42.1 talks about Supreme good fortune and being able to accomplish great deeds. It's as if when one has completely Decreased their sence of individual self miracles are possible. I think of the line, "There is no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit."
 

Trojina

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Frank I loved your post - I found what you wrote a really refreshing new angle, thankyou
:bows:

Thanks Bruce, a nice way to look at it - some people here really need to start writing their own commentaries and i think you are one of them ;) BTW seemed everyones spontaneously becoming animals/creatures in their signature thing - must look strange to a newbie - probably think we are part of some weird totem cult. :eek:
 

Trojina

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41.6 - some musings:

this is a hexagram that includes coverage of alchemy issues where the 'decrease' is both positive in the form of concentrating, distilling, and negative when such action can fail and we get 'true' decrease - a pile of rubbish!

Chris.

Yes I think alchemy is a key word here - thanks for your musings :)
 

Trojina

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I think of the line, "There is no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit."

Yes I really like that :) You see I think part of the trouble i had with the line is its so idealistic how can one apply it to ones own life - if one isn't a 'touring guru' or Mother Theresa ? Your take on it grounds it a bit to fit ordinary mortals - though still it is an amazingly idealistic line isn't it - an amazing concept really -
 

martin

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A relationship with followers and servants is usually more distant and less stable than the relationship with family, husband or wife, kids, place of residence, house, cattle or land that you own, and so on.

I think what this line says is basically that whatever it is that you gain, it is not very 'close to your heart' and perhaps it is also temporary. In a sense it's not really yours and you may soon lose it again, or give it away, or trade it for something else: it's more like currency, money.

So, perhaps there is a question in line 6, something like:
You earn money (or an equivalent of it) but money in itself has no real value. The value comes from what you do with it. What are you going to do with it?
Remember, there is an art to being rich.

Just my 2 million euros. :)
 
B

bruce_g

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Thanks Bruce, a nice way to look at it - some people here really need to start writing their own commentaries and i think you are one of them ;)

Thanks, Trojan, that's very kind of you. Though I've been told this is rubbish, by Hilary, I can't write or express thoughts very well unless it's actually to or with someone; and besides that, it's just one more person's interpretation of things which can't back up with translational knowledge. There are enough experts out there anyway. ;)
 

Trojina

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Hi Martin, your take on 41,6 is similar to mine originally was - I saw it as a kind of bleak line - as in who cares if you gain the world if your hearts not there (ie home, family) - then all the others on this thread really lifted my spirits about it - now its back to bleak :( Hey but i won't hold it against you :rofl: Good point about the money though
 

bradford

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Does it advise you to give or receive generously - or both ? But to recap why should you lose your dwelling in that process ?

Hi Trojan
I think you've already got a pretty good grip on this line. 41 of course is about thinking economically, before this word got so perverted, or looking at the true cost of things in relation to their benefits, and doing more with less. I'm not certain that home is the best rendering of jia in this context (and certainly not dwelling) , although that should at least be implied. Family serves better with the linguistic context, where it balances better against chen, servants, as this sentence is set up grammatically. This suggests that we need to weigh the effects of our busy-ness on the quality and intimacy of our relationships. Do we really want to take on that much objectivity in the pursuit of our economic goals. I don't see this as being so much about charitable action as about finding ways to be useful, and therefore finding increasing demands on your time and resources.
 

martin

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Lol, sorry for not lifting your spirit, Trojan. :D
I believe there is a lot of truth in how some others in this thread interpreted this line, on a higher or deeper level.
And look what LiSe says about it on her site:

"A soul in which diminishing and augmenting do not exist, has no ego. He can find his road simply by walking it. He will find servants without offering them a place to live because being close to a soul like this has more value than anything else. He needs no home, he is a home."

Wonderful!

But I tried to stay close to what I think that the ancient Chinese saw in this line. And I may be wrong, but it seems to me that they were on the whole rather practical and down to earth. :)
 
B

bruce_g

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Brad, doesn't that still amount to losing self interest in favor of the whole? Self interest uses a lot of fuel, and the return on investment on that can be marginal to the company store. At its extreme, 41 is a model of communism. In a thumbnail, I see 41.6 as a political model for the people, while the government/dictator looks more like 42.6.

I agree that 41 and 42 are a lot about economics, but also about a government and its people, or the people and its government - depending on whether the government is based on 41, 42, or somewhere in-between.

And of course, each person lives with these same models within themselves. I think that's practical as well as idealogical.
 
B

bruce_g

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I was just watching a favorite show, the Dog Whisperer. Caesar often focuses on antisocially aggressive dogs, dogs which use a great deal of energy in an unproductive way. Calm assertiveness (i.e. "thus the superior man controls his anger, and restrains his instincts, etc") is the disposition the trainer establishes as the pack leader. The human (trainer) gains servants, as the dogs then relax likewise. None require "a home" per se; they are secure as members of the pack.
 

Trojina

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Hi Trojan
I think you've already got a pretty good grip on this line. 41 of course is about thinking economically, before this word got so perverted, or looking at the true cost of things in relation to their benefits, and doing more with less. I'm not certain that home is the best rendering of jia in this context (and certainly not dwelling) , although that should at least be implied. Family serves better with the linguistic context, where it balances better against chen, servants, as this sentence is set up grammatically. This suggests that we need to weigh the effects of our busy-ness on the quality and intimacy of our relationships. Do we really want to take on that much objectivity in the pursuit of our economic goals. I don't see this as being so much about charitable action as about finding ways to be useful, and therefore finding increasing demands on your time and resources.

Thanks Brad, do you think this includes the quality of the relationship with ourselves - if it does it will personally make alot of sense to me.

I enjoy your commentaries very much by the way, i always check them out but sometimes fail to follow the plot if they are riddle like - but I know the idea is not to make things too easy for us ;)
 

bradford

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Thanks Brad, do you think this includes the quality of the relationship with ourselves - if it does it will personally make alot of sense to me.

I'd agree. Maybe those two are connected and mirror each other. You can't love your neighbor until you can love yourself (or until her husband leaves for the day).

I know the idea is not to make things too easy for us ;)

At least it's not to explain what they mean. The meanings stray off in too many directions for one lonesome cowboy to rope 'em all in.
 

frank_r

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Trojan,

I just had 41- line 1 and 6. With a question; In what area I have a similarity/agreement with my collegues at work?

And this thread learned me that my relationship is based on money and a little bit on idea's and I wish it was more on idea's and life phylosophy. Because otherwise it will a little empty for me. When you only have a relationship for the money. When money is the only mirror for working together with somebody else.

Thanks for the insight this thread gave me.
 

Tohpol

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I'm needing some help with this line. I've thought about it so much and none of the commentaries I've read, none at all, shed much light for me in its application and when i woke up last night thinking on it :blush: I decided to ask here

Why the "blush"? :)

Anyhow, this line is THE line for me this year -at least the early year. It is as Chris mentioned one of the most important alchemical lines and I think goes hand in hand with 17 Following, learning to serve i.e. learning to create and direct our energy consciously . Brad said:

"This suggests that we need to weigh the effects of our busy-ness on the quality and intimacy of our relationships."


Again, from an energy point of view, we are either draining ourselves or draining others - more likely both. Learning to economize emotionally and build up our reserves is vital. Indeed, to vitalize the mind so that we eventually have the awareness to cope with things without "taking" from others That comes through the alchemical refinement that is certainly a delicate process.

Keep it simple. Get rid of dependencies etc.

Topal
 

dobro p

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Hi Trojan

Sorry to arrive late to the party. But if it's not too late, here's my take on 41.6. Like a lot of sixth lines, it signifies the end stage of the situation imaged in the hexagram, which in the case of 41 is decrease or diminishing or sacrifice, or however you want to name the concept. So in this case, the diminishing is coming to an end. So my take on 41.6 is that it's saying something like: "It might look like a case of diminishing, but it's a case of augmentation in fact. Trust your best judgement and plans. You get valuable help (that's a big part of the augmentation) but nothing's settled for the time being (cuz we're still in the time of diminishing, even though it's on its way out)."
 

peace66

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Timely Discussion......

:)Hey All
I just got 41 .6. > 19 in a relationship reading today, so this discussion is really clearing
some things up for me!

Peace
 

hooo

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thank you

received 41.6 to 19 today, consecutively, regarding relationship questions (also).

i hope it is not poor form to bump such a "mature" thread, but i felt compelled to thank everyone involved for this thread.

such an amazing resource of insight and information.

thank you very much.
 

gene

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One thing we want to do here is when it comes to general questions, we do not want to get too literal necessarily. The first line says, "If one is increased without decreasing others..." All too often people have a feeling that in order to be successful, one must take from others. We must have a mental attitude that says that, in order to receive, I must first give, and we must look for ways in which we all win.

Another line says, "One obtains servants but no longer has a separate home." Servants were normally brought into the home to do the chores, etc. If you bring servants into your home, it is no longer occupied by just you. In the same way, in life, we must give up something to acquire something. By attaining something that "serves" us, we also give up something in return.

One aspect of the hexagram is that we decrease ourselves in order to enrich ourselves. There is a thought here of mutual service, and working in harmony with others (hexagram 15) to enrich not only ourselves but all others. The thing that we really decrease is our anger and our instincts. Only then can we work in harmony with others, and thinking about the welfare of all and not just ourselves. It is only by sacrificing that we achieve something great.

Gene
 

hooo

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bullseye, gene.

thank you very much for that. i can't express how dead-on and poignant that is, at least to me personally.
 

precision grace

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fab thread, thanks to everyone also.

I like to think of 41.6 as one of those rare occasions when there isn't much of a downside to getting close with people (as there always is for me)
 

susieq777

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This thread was pretty awesome, well worth the time machine trip back to 2007 :)

I think 41 is my new in-love-with hexagram. How awfully sexy it is! Or at least it is when I'm viewing it through the prism of 41.6. All that alchemical "less makes more" stuff is just so right up my alley, I can't begin to tell you!

I asked the Yi, "Can you comment on where my earning energies should be focussed financially over the next 6 months?" I have health issues that keep me working from home. What that has meant in practice is transcription (typing, which I loathe, and which drains me) and writing (which I love, but it was notoriously hard to earn a living writing nonfiction or fiction, even before every woman and her amoeba decided that they too wanted to write, and the Internet got so many more people doing just that.

I got as my reply 41.6 > 19, which is awfully exciting. My desire is that what it is saying is write more, transcribe less :) Whether it works out as that or something else I'm yet to see, it's a very positive reading. One of those ones you want to keep an eye on and come back to in six months time and reread :)
 

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