43.4 > 5

[maremaria]

I’m thinking of doing X thing. Asked Yi :” what if I do X ?” and got 43.4 > 5

I assume the advice is not to do it yet, don’t take that initiative but let yourself be lead .

What confuse me is that in some translations I read something about surrendering and let the other part know that.


From Wiki

Leading a sheep on a rope:
“Gao Heng draws attention to a story in the Zuo Commentary in which the capital of Zheng fell to its enemy after a long siege. When the conqueror entered the city he was met by the earl of Zheng, stripped to the waist like a labourer and leading a sheep – the same idiom is used for this oracle – as a sign that he would pledge fealty in return for mercy. This suggests that leading a sheep symbolised a submissive petition.” (Rutt) http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie..._exec_obidos_ASIN_0700704671_clarityiching_20

So how one can read this line. ? Don’t take any initiative unless if it is to declare submission?

Thank in advance,
Maria

 

[arabella]

The background of the this is a bit sketchy and the circumstances not really described but, in general, if this were my own casting to consider, I would think I was being told one of three things, and the circumstances might indicate which one --

First possibility: to be entirely open minded and follow the flow and tide of the times, to let circumstances lead me and be patient and trust my instincts, since the right or wrong of doing "X" would be revealed to me.

Second possibility: that, being an already circumspect person who already is questioning and following the tide as much as possible I am being told to wait for intervention that is coming, keep my ears open for guidance and the chance to "be led" by a person or event that will be illuminating in the situation.

And a third possibility: if you have been receiving guidance or suggestions from someone about "doing X" and rejected it, this might be a caution by the IChing to let yourself "be led" in the situation and take the advice being offered.

The idea of this indicating a "submissive petition" is interesting. Perhaps, if others are observing whether you "do X" or not, the fact that you wait and let yourself be led creates an aura that is impressive to those observing. Perhaps this is the "submissive petition" and perhaps it has an effect that actually "doing X" wouldn't have achieved.

How clear is that? A little mud anybody?

 

[meng]

So how one can read this line. ? Don’t take any initiative unless if it is to declare submission?

43 is an initiative taker, a stand upper, so I don't see initiative being a problem. It's more how and what's behind it that matters.

As far as submission, "to rule truly is to serve" (Wilhelm 42). It's not a matter of submitting but of trusting what you're standing for and follow. A sheep won't follow a shepherd they don't trust. They won't even hear him. If you desire to assert leadership, that's good to remember. If you desire to follow, then learn to trust.

 

[chucklesthegirl]

I would interpret this reading as be strong in your convictions and have faith. By remaining patient, good will follow with your decision.

 

[patro]

hi maremaria,
once I read in a Richard Wilhelm book... that is wrong to ask using "if"!!!
it's a little bit difficult for me to explain the concept in English... but if you want I can try!!
any way:
” what if I do X ? ” -> will I do x?
try the second one.... it is less confusing and the IC will give an answer that you can understand....

 

[maremaria]

thank you all for your responses.

will write back this evening .

 

[maremaria]

hi maremaria,
once I read in a Richard Wilhelm book... that is wrong to ask using "if"!!!
it's a little bit difficult for me to explain the concept in English... but if you want I can try!!
any way:
” what if I do X ? ” -> will I do x?
try the second one.... it is less confusing and the IC will give an answer that you can understand....

Patro, if you want to try, I'ld like to hear your thoughts

 

[patro]

Wilhelm saw... that is not good to ask the I Cing using "if"... because it's only a speculation.
the IC speak with you considering 3 possible situation. and this are the basic of it's philosophy.

the first one is: that there are things... good or bad, that early or later you must manage, because their are part of your cosmic order. part of your life path!!

the second one is: that there are things... good or bad, that you can obtain... that you can reach trough different ways .. only because this goals are not really important for cosmic order... and they will not influence your life path!!

the third one is: that there are things that you will never obtain... because this kind of situation are not part of your life path!!. you can try to reach it... but you'll never reach it!!

The IC will any way give you an answer... but asking with the "if" could mean that for you... there are more cosmic order option to follow...and this is impossible.
I hope to explained good the thoughts!!!

Patro

 

[maremaria]

The question is about something I need to fix and the reason I asked has to do with whether is the right time or not.

Meng said : “If you desire to assert leadership, that's good to remember. If you desire to follow, then learn to trust.”

This is exactly my inner conflict!! To follow or to lead ? 43 is about resoluteness, firmness of purpose, determination making a decision But ,as far as I can understand line 4, there are times that this resoluteness can become obstinacy. Wilhelm says “ for obstinacy makes a man unable to hear” The key word of the above sentence is “desire” the way I see it. I feel a bit restless regarding the matter I’m asking for and I desire to fix it. But taking into consideration what all of your have said here, and looking again at the hex, I believe is more wise to hear the first thing I “heard” looking at hex 5 , “relaaaaaax “, lol. Since they is not something really urgent to solve, just the anticipation to make things different, perhaps this is the advise I shouldn’t ignore as line 43.4 says and don’t push anything.

Some time ago, an imagery of 5 was that of a chess game, I even make a composition in the “Yi images” thread. So I think, what is best for now is to wait a bit to see the other’s part movement and act accordingly

Thanks again all of you, for your insights. You really helped a lot
Maria

 

[maremaria]

Patro,

Thanks for explaining

To be honest I have never come across with those though of Wilhelm. btw, where he talks about that. Haven't read yet all the book, is it there or somewhere else ?

As for the "What if "question, is the kind of question I ask when thinking of doing something. There is a "what do i need to know... " behind the "what if". Its like exploring the consequences of a decision, no ?

I'm not sure why that is a spectulation.

 

[patro]

it' a speculation!!!
because you can think to manage a situation with infinite approach...
but you will only act in one way.... so, the best way to investigate this kind of situation, is simply to ask:
what will I do....? etccc...
the simplest way is to ask the IC.... it just know the right answer..
and it just know what will happen, with all implication that you can/'t imagine!!!

 

[yamabushi]

maremaria,

I obtain 43.4>5 in very important moment of my life.
Hexagram 43 is talking about how to get rid of evil or malicious person or event from life.
So I asked "how can i finally fix the situation and get rid of the evil person"?
43.4>5 is talking to you that it is unwise to try anything alone, but you have have somebody or you can find somebody ho can tell you or advice you what to do. It is very important for you to allow to be lead from that person. Ancient text are talking that most probably you will not follow that advice because you are too stuborn.
When you use advice from that person (he or she will lead you like a sheep) than you have to sit, calm your self down and wait for a while (hexagram 5).

Hexagram 43 is also saying to you, that you must everything do publicly, explain everybody your motives, find allies, and openly discredit evil and then get rid of it.
Any use of force or dishonest tactics is forbiden.
43.4 is also saying that you have done everything good till now, now it is critical moment to listen advice and everything should be ok...

 

[yamabushi]

btw, this is first time that i advice somebody else
willowfox do you agree with my comment?

 

[maremaria]

it' a speculation!!!
because you can think to manage a situation with infinite approach...
but you will only act in one way.... so, the best way to investigate this kind of situation, is simply to ask:
what will I do....? etccc...
the simplest way is to ask the IC.... it just know the right answer..
and it just know what will happen, with all implication that you can/'t imagine!!!

"what is the best approach " is a question I ask too. But if i have something i want to do in my mind I have found usually very usefull the answers to a "what if I do x" Q. Actually I have already asked such a Q for the matter concerns me here.

I read again what whilhem says, as you wrote at your previous post, if unless i have read them wrong I feel that somemithing is missing there. I can't see where I stand, where is my wishes, my choices, my way to walk that path.

What i like about Yi, is that no-where says "you have to do this or that !!!" It just says "if you do this then X thing will happen, if you do that Z thing will happen "

Sometime ago a member here, Martin, posted the following flowchart.

What i like i s the part says "will it likely end in disaster ? " --> YES -- > "will it make a good story anyway ? ---> yes -- Do it.

Re my question here, have I give up to fix that matter ? not yet But what Meng said...

43 is an initiative taker, a stand upper, so I don't see initiative being a problem. It's more how and what's behind it that matters.

made me ask that question to my self and the answer I gave was not very clear. So i decide to wait for a while till I can give a good answer to my self. Good choice, bad choice, we will see

 

[maremaria]

When you use advice from that person (he or she will lead you like a sheep) than you have to sit, calm your self down and wait for a while (hexagram 5).

...

Thanks Yamabushi.

I think I know who that person is

My passionate part say "i want to fix it and I want to fix it NOW !!!!' and the more reasonable one says "lets talk about it a bit "....
... they are in the meeting room now

 

[arabella]

Martin's chart is absolutely priceless!

 

[patro]

oh yessss!
Martin's chart is the right way to investigate!!!

 

[meng]

Waiting is good.

I've saved Martin's chart for just such indecisive times as you describe, Maria. It's a real tie breaker for me. In the end, all you really have is your story. Might as well make it an interesting one, even if it means taking more risks.

 

[maremaria]

In the end, all you really have is your story. .

yup !!!

 

[ginnie]

So how can one can read this line. ? Don’t take any initiative unless if it is to declare submission?

It could be that someone has already warned you against taking that proposed course of action, but you are not listening to that person, who has actually given you excellent advice. Maybe you are saying to yourself: "What could he possibly know about this?"

That was how this line played out in my experience last year. I did not listen to someone who told me my action wouldn't work out well for me. It turned out later that he was correct about that. My proposed course of action caused me problems, and I still have those problems.

The text is very dramatic and a little scary, with its talk of being half unclothed and leading a sheep after a military victory. But I think all it means is that we won't listen and heed ('surrender to') someone's else's good advice . . .

 

[maremaria]

Ginnie, I was too frustrated to see the dramatic or scary side of that line. I only asked Yi for advise and I just wanted a YES !!! but it was NO !!!
But seriously, its more a inner conflict as i said earlier between my two sides.

But I'm courious, how did you inteprend that line and move on , if you want to share of course.

 

[yamabushi]

it' a speculation!!!
because you can think to manage a situation with infinite approach...
but you will only act in one way.... so, the best way to investigate this kind of situation, is simply to ask:
what will I do....? etccc...
the simplest way is to ask the IC.... it just know the right answer..
and it just know what will happen, with all implication that you can/'t imagine!!!

If you ask what will I do it mean that you are in situation in which you have no idea what to do.
What is wrong with; "what can I ecpect if i do this"?

 

[yamabushi]

Thanks Yamabushi.

I think I know who that person is

My passionate part say "i' want to fix it and I want to fix it NOW !!!!' and the more reasonable one says "lets talk about it a bit "....
... they are in the meeting room now

So how is everything now? Did you listen that advice?

 

[maremaria]

So how is everything now? Did you listen that advice?

Yes, for the time being... With a scorpio in my sun you never know though

 

[ginnie]

But I'm curious, how did you interpret that line and move on, if you want to share of course.

Well, I did not listen to the advice of the person who knew me. I went right ahead anyway. As a result I got myself into a situation that became more and more difficult as it went along.

About a year later, an opportunity came up to leave that unfortunate situation, so I did. At that point Yi just said to stick by my decision to leave, so I listened to Yi and have stuck to that decision.

I have always been willing to listen to Yi. But I am not always willing to listen to people in my life. Maybe sometimes the people we know can give us good advice. I think that is the point of this line.

 

[maremaria]

I see, it was clear but you decided to do your own thing.

At least you had an opportunity to exit from that unpleasant situation.

Thanks for sharing

 

[ginnie]

I see, it was clear but you decided to do your own thing.

It was not clear to me. I didn't think the person giving me the advice knew what he was talking about. And so, I went ahead, even though it was not clear to me.

I think the point of this line is that sometimes someone we know has better judgment and has given us better advice than we are giving them credit for.

Only through the experience of this line did I understand that the advice I should follow was from a person, not from the I Ching.

In other words, I thought it was a line in which the I Ching was chastising me for not listening to the I Ching. No, that was not it at all.

 

[heylise]

There is another story, only hope it will not confuse you.

The great Yu conquered the Yellow River - he organized all clans together and they dug canals so the river would have a good riverbed towards the sea instead of changing its course all the time, flooding people and land. But he worked very hard himself, and after the big job had been done, he got lame on one side. They are not sure why, he might have had a stroke, or maybe ruined his back which seems obvious to me, or whatever. His skin was off his thighs, he was a mess.

I think he could not walk without a stick, but anyone who ever had a goat, knows that they make great supports. they have horns you can hold on to, and they can be very tame. Back then even emperors were simply farmers and hunters. So I picture Yi with his goat, still attending the meetings of the lords. "The buttocks without skin. One moves poorly now, leading a goat. Regret goes away. Hearing the words, no belief."

He was a very strongwilled man who made everything he had in mind, happen. Might be that 'hearing this' refers to the story being so incredible, in plain english "you wouldn't believe it"

 

[maremaria]

There is another story, only hope it will not confuse you.

"

Only a bit but thanks for sharing.

So “Hearing the words, no belief." Could mean that one thinks he can’t move on but if he finds a sheep to support him, like a stick he can.

This line feels like being in front of a fork road. 43 among other things is about decision and line 4 is also about decisions and choices. What is more, it’s a line in a wrong place.

lol, I can hear the part of me say "see, i told you so, Do it !!!"

Thank Lise

 

[maremaria]

He was a very strongwilled man who made everything he had in mind, happen. Might be that 'hearing this' refers to the story being so incredible, in plain english "you wouldn't believe it"

oh, I just saw that. Yes it might be that too.