45.3.4.5 - 15 Whats the lesson in this?

[Toodles34]

I reached out to a home ed community group I attend, to share that I am wanting to co-create a learning space for our children and asking if they would be interested in sharing the space we currently use and working together to diversify the space that I was prepared to fund.

I received a blunt and unfriendly no. They accused me of being rude for suggesting it given how much hard work they had put into the project and with me only being a part of it for a short time.

I am wanting to know what the lesson is here for me to grow from.

I feel a little in shock, as I genuinely thought it was a fab idea and my intuition was telling me to ask them.

When I read Yi's answer - I feel that it is suggesting I need to connect with myself and to spirit deeper. Almost as if I have jumped a few steps to try and form connections without having a stable foundation of knowing and trusting myself first.. and that in knowing myself, its easier to connect in relationship with others.

I feel a little embarrassed about not considering the power dynamics before approaching the matter so directly, so can see that hexagram 15 is advising me to be humble. Perhaps also suggesting that trying ti change the situation was the wrong approach.

I'm not entirely sure how to embody this lesson and what else I can take from it and am open to feedback.

Thank you

 

[rosada]

The Image will often give the key lesson in the hexagram. The Image for 45 cautions “The noble one sets aside weapons and tools and warns against the unexpected”. In other words, you may think this group is all one happy supportive family but nooo - it can turn out this is a Gathering of people only superficially in agreement with very different values underneath and you must be prepared to face some opposition and defend your ideas.

Sometimes instead of promoting improvements groups hold everyone back. Do you know the story of why it’s not necessary to put lids on lobster barrels? Supposedly when fishermen catch lobsters they toss them into barrels and don’t bother to put lids on them because if one lobster tries to crawl out the others in the barrel will drag him back in. Likewise with 45. you may have found yourself in a group of people where everyone is happy to keep things just the way they are and it’s the challenge of Gathering to try to introduce a new idea.. Notice how this leads to the next hexagram - 46. Pushing Upwards, where one has learned the way to introduce a new idea is veeery carefully, one small step at a time.

The lines seem to describe your path..
45.3 The rejection you’ve experienced already.
45.4 Reassurance that your instincts are not wrong. The children’s needs should most definitely be considered by the group, how else will they come to feel a part of this tribe?
45.5 This line also verifies your thinking is on the right track.

15. Modesty - This is not the most helpful name for this hexagram. Hilary calls it Integrity which I think is more appropriate. There is no need to be “humble” here if by humble or modest one thinks this means being shy or quiet or keeping in the background. See it as meaning a person who knows they are right but doesn’t argue or try to force their opinions. You just live your truth until it becomes obvious to everyone you’re on the right track.

Together these hexagrams suggest to me that you not give this rebuff too much weight. While it may feel like the whole group was coming down on you, it may have been just one or two folks who may think they speak for the room but if you were to poll the members individually you would find there actually are those who support you. Also even those who turned down your suggestion may have not have really thought about it and were just giving a knee jerk reaction to your unexpected enthusiasm.

The hexagrams read to me as if to say if you continue to promote your vision you just may find the lesson here is that nothing can stop an idea whose time has come.

p.s. Just heard someone comment that a certain person had “integrity.” That he was “on the level” which I thought was a wonderfully appropriate phrase because the essence of the 15. Integrity person is that they reduce what is too much and augment what is to little, that is, they make all things “level”.

 

[Hans_K]

I received a blunt and unfriendly no. They accused me of being rude for suggesting it given how much hard work they had put into the project and with me only being a part of it for a short time.

H45 is the hexagram of collecting. This hexagram aims to make something complete by adding what is missing.
With that, I think this hexagram indicates well what your intention was in the offer you made to the home ed community group.
H15 is about integrity and balance in action. The text of the Image says: "Thus the superior person lessens what is too much And increases what is too little. He weighs things and makes their distribution equal."

H45<>H15 thus shows that the offer you made to this community group had integrity and sincerity with the intention of improving things, making things more complete/diverse.

I am wanting to know what the lesson is here for me to grow from.

First, I don't think you did anything "wrong", the blunt reaction says something about them rather than you.
Trigram Earth turns into Mountain by the moving line at the 3rd position.
Earth out of balance is about being too caring towards others without considering your own needs. The change to Mountain advises setting a boundary to this, finding a balance between giving and receiving which creates a strong sense of self (as in "Hello world here I am").
Lake changes into Earth through the moving lines at the 4th and 5th positions. As the upper trigram in this case it can refer to the group.
Lake out of balance is about not seeing things as they really are.
Even though your offer was sincere, it may have been perceived differently by the other party.
Such a generous offer (being willing to pay for the space) might also have been interpreted by them as wanting to influence or wanting to take over control (lines 4 and 5 are both moving yang lines). The change to Earth is a balance in giving and receiving, but also accepting. So they could not see the offer for what it was.

Almost as if I have jumped a few steps to try and form connections without having a stable foundation of knowing and trusting myself first.. and that in knowing myself, its easier to connect in relationship with others.

Yes, but be careful not to use this interpretation to blame yourself for the situation and their behaviour .
H15 is about an inner strength, 'I' as in "Hello world this is me" (Mountain) relative to the mass/group of people (Earth). H15 is the balance or opposite for H45.3.4.5 where an imbalance in giving and receiving (Earth) is related to a disturbed mutual interaction and communication (Lake).

If it resonates then you might look at to what extent the offer had to do with the feeling of 'I' and also what the rejection did with it.

I feel a little embarrassed about not considering the power dynamics before approaching the matter so directly, so can see that hexagram 15 is advising me to be humble. Perhaps also suggesting that trying ti change the situation was the wrong approach.

That's not how I see the answer, I don't think you should be embarrassed about anything and certainly not be more humble.

This would be my interpretation. As always, take what resonates and leave the rest

 

[my_key]

Hi Toodles34

I feel a little embarrassed about not considering the power dynamics before approaching the matter so directly, so can see that hexagram 15 is advising me to be humble. Perhaps also suggesting that trying ti change the situation was the wrong approach.

I'm not entirely sure how to embody this lesson and what else I can take from it and am open to feedback.

Some I Ching aficionados have assigned the name 'Authenticity' to hex 15. Being humble carries a dictionary meaning of 'having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's importance' and for many the onus of being humble is weighted in favour of having a low estimate of one's importance.

Authenticity carries with it a completely different perspective. Authenticity is the personal quality of being genuine, real or true. Being authentic is deeply knowing and trusting your own qualities and capabilities without needing to shout about it all from the rooftops.

45 <>15

'Great Works' through 'Authenticity'

Or perhaps, the great in you works through your authenticity.

If could be Yi is saying that the lesson you are being invited to understand from this experience is to be true to yourself and to see things for what they are as you gather together thoughts and memories and reflect on them (45) in ways that are designed to show a new picture of your true self to you (15). ,

43.3 - learn to sit with the true nature of your sorrows and emotional wounding.

43.4 - learn how to strip the cruel words and actions away and how to compassionately make decisions to remove yourself from inappropriate groupings.

43.5 - learn that you do not need to hold onto any position in life that does not serve you at your deepest level..... and that bringing a new structure to your inner and outer world will not happen overnight.

... or your reading might carry other meanings for you

Good Luck

 

[breakmov]

another option:

Hi Toodles34

lately I've been back to Richard Wilhelm's yijing translation and his precious comments.

From what Richard Wilhelm presented about hexagrams 45 and 15, I leave the following questions to help, if possible, in answering your question:

45.3.4.5 - 15 Whats the lesson in this?​

"How to play the game of mutual attraction between the objective of this group and your personal objective in order to converge on an authenticity common to all?"

"Is it possible to turn the objective of this group, to which you belong, and your own objective into a common and authentic path for everyone?"


"How is your goal in rapport with the group’s goal?"

breakmov

 

[Toodles34]

Wow thank you so much everyone this is all really really helpful & spookily spot on!!

So after I sent my mature response, I received a phone call today from one of the ladies.

She shared she didn't want me to feel ostricized, that she sensed I was struggling and trying to rush and shared more about why they were triggered. Turns out people have made suggestions in the past that didn't work out and so they were wary.

The home ed space is one that they intentionally keep 'small' to appease the councils from fear of losing it if it gets too shiny.

I've not been asked to leave, and notice a desire to stay and prove myself even though I know this is not a space that freedom can grow within. There is too much hierarchy and control and I feel I would feel frustrated regularly trying to shine my light here.

I think the lesson is indeed to sever ties and focus on myself and allow my vision to grow organically - but I feel grateful I was able to articulate my true intentions to them and that there are no hard feelings.

I feel sadness to turn away, as I really do want to find my 'tribe', but as mentioned above - there are people in the group who would resonate with me, but are bound by the limits put in place by those in control of the group.

They did say that saying no wasn't forever but that they intentionally do things really slow. I don't feel this is a situation worth waiting around for however and did know early on in the project that change would be challenging.

 

[Toodles34]

Hi Toodles34

Some I Ching aficionados have assigned the name 'Authenticity' to hex 15. Being humble carries a dictionary meaning of 'having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's importance' and for many the onus of being humble is weighted in favour of having a low estimate of one's importance.

Authenticity carries with it a completely different perspective. Authenticity is the personal quality of being genuine, real or true. Being authentic is deeply knowing and trusting your own qualities and capabilities without needing to shout about it all from the rooftops.

45 <>15

'Great Works' through 'Authenticity'

Or perhaps, the great in you works through your authenticity.

If could be Yi is saying that the lesson you are being invited to understand from this experience is to be true to yourself and to see things for what they are as you gather together thoughts and memories and reflect on them (45) in ways that are designed to show a new picture of your true self to you (15). ,

43.3 - learn to sit with the true nature of your sorrows and emotional wounding.

43.4 - learn how to strip the cruel words and actions away and how to compassionately make decisions to remove yourself from inappropriate groupings.

43.5 - learn that you do not need to hold onto any position in life that does not serve you at your deepest level..... and that bringing a new structure to your inner and outer world will not happen overnight.

... or your reading might carry other meanings for you

Good Luck

Thank you, I am feeling that I do need to compassionately step away from the group, but also noticing feelings of 'giving up' or failure.

I question if walking away will mean turning away from lessons about how to work in harmony with others but just not sure it's possible here

 

[rosada]

Further thoughts on what 15. Modesty/Integrity/Authenticity might mean…

Looking at the sequence and how the experience of Modesty evolves from the confidence that comes from having experienced Possession in Great Measure…

14.6
From heaven comes health and protection.
Good fortune.
Nothing that does not bear fruit.

Leads to…

15.1
At one in integrity, the noble one
Uses this to cross the great river.
Good fortune.

Thus when you know you 14 possess something of value, then 15 says you are right to feel emboldened to share it with others even foreigners or those whose thinking is totally foreign, maybe even antagonistic. Like the psalm says, “ Yea though I enter the valley of the shadow of death and I shall fear no evil for thow art with me”

 

[Toodles34]

Hi Toodles34

Some I Ching aficionados have assigned the name 'Authenticity' to hex 15. Being humble carries a dictionary meaning of 'having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's importance' and for many the onus of being humble is weighted in favour of having a low estimate of one's importance.

Authenticity carries with it a completely different perspective. Authenticity is the personal quality of being genuine, real or true. Being authentic is deeply knowing and trusting your own qualities and capabilities without needing to shout about it all from the rooftops.

45 <>15

'Great Works' through 'Authenticity'

Or perhaps, the great in you works through your authenticity.

If could be Yi is saying that the lesson you are being invited to understand from this experience is to be true to yourself and to see things for what they are as you gather together thoughts and memories and reflect on them (45) in ways that are designed to show a new picture of your true self to you (15). ,

43.3 - learn to sit with the true nature of your sorrows and emotional wounding.

43.4 - learn how to strip the cruel words and actions away and how to compassionately make decisions to remove yourself from inappropriate groupings.

43.5 - learn that you do not need to hold onto any position in life that does not serve you at your deepest level..... and that bringing a new structure to your inner and outer world will not happen overnight.

... or your reading might carry other meanings for you

Good Luck

Thank you, do you think Yi I'd suggesting it's best to remove myself from the situation? I feel that is what is best to do here

 

[my_key]

Thank you, do you think Yi I'd suggesting it's best to remove myself from the situation? I feel that is what is best to do here

It matters not one jot what I think. It's for you and you alone to apply 45.3, 45.4 and 45.5 to your situation in your own way and in your own time. Trust that you will know what is the best thing for you to do.

Here is an invitation for you:

Experiment with imagining going back to the group and sit with how that feels.
Experiment with imagining not going back to the group and sit with how that feels.

Then use your feelings to help you make your decision.

Good Luck