...life can be translucent

Menu

47.1 > 58: A long-term problem -- perhaps with my own attitude

Status
Not open for further replies.

brandxbear

visitor
Joined
Jan 13, 2018
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Hello, All. This is my first post. I have a problem which I've allowed to grow completely out of control, and has become a major detriment to my happiness and progress. If it is possible to become addicted to a person similarly to how one might become addicted to drugs, then I believe that sums up the issue.

Two and a half years ago, I met "Tom" and at first I did not think much of him: He was a friend of a friend, and as it turned out, his profession and means of support were under a cloud for a time. Well, not for us, but for the world, yes. But as the weeks progressed, and he expressed more and more interest in spending time with me, I found myself looking forward more and more to our evenings together.

A few weeks later, I was surprised to find myself completely head-over-heels infatuated with him. I am a grown man in my 40s in a fairly high-profile career with some serious fiduciary responsibilities, and here I was getting all twitterpated over a 30-something artist--he showed me programs from some gallery shows that had run in another town years previously--who was supplementing his income with some relatively innocuous but not strictly above-board business dealings. :duh: Right.

Because of my position I felt I could help generate some publicity for his art, once he started painting again. I was under the impression that we had a romantic relationship, because we had been intimate a couple times when he spent the night at my place when it was too late to drive 80 km to his home in a neighboring county.

When he sublet a room in my town, I thought it a good omen. Of course, it also meant his business dealings began taking up more of his time, and we weren't spending evenings at my place anymore. We would spend all our time at his, where there were a lot of people coming and going. I began to grow frustrated and I despaired that we'd ever find time alone together. When I brought up these concerns, he reassured me that he was just busy and had a lot on his mind.

This is the first time I've written this account as a narrative, and as I look at the preceding paragraph, I realize with horror just how ridiculous I am. I can't really say why I didn't realize that there was something seriously amiss. He is very charming and manipulative, and, I mean, every time I was to see him, I would get butterflies in my stomach 20 minutes before.

I never thought at my age I'd experience that again. It seemed miraculous. Later, it seemed much less so, because I think we forget how wonderful love isn't when things go wrong.

It may help clarify my cluelessness a bit if I explain that at this time, I had just recovered from a serious illness that required chemotherapy. For about 18 months, I had been bald, emaciated, sickly-looking with no eyebrows and my weekly schedule was filled with doctor appointments and followups. There is a sort of unreality that sets in during an experience like this, and it lingered through what became a brisk recovery: My hair had grown back, and I had gained back only a portion of my previous weight--to tell the truth, I had seldom looked better in my life. People would compliment me on my appearance and ask my secret. "Cancer," became my customary blithe reply, but inside i was glowing and I was getting a promotion at work and things were really going my way.

This is exactly the point at which Tom materialized in my life. He seemed very attentive and it was really the first time in my life I had felt genuinely attractive. Also, I was determined to live the rest of my life differently, to open myself up to new experiences, unbound by the chains of convention--and so, when a new roommate materialized, a much younger man in his 20s, and Tom was forced to share not just his single room but his bed with this unfortunate soul who was on hard times, I took it in stride. We became the Three Musketeers, and I believed Tom when he told me he was not even attracted to immature men like that--"But give 'im about 10 years and watch out"--like me, Tom preferred the more mature type, and the only drawback was that now there was really no possibility for intimacy between Tom and me.

One rare morning, the roommate (of the room) as well as the roommate (of the flat) were both out, and I found myself alone with Tom. So, seizing the opportunity, I cornered him on the balcony and drew him into my embrace with what I hoped was a passionate and sexy confidence, while he ... sort of ... just went limp and ... he didn't pull away, exactly, but my ardent embrace was not returned and I began to feel a bit ashamed and more than a bit humiliated, and he finally sort of extracted himself, ducking first under one arm and then the other--and that's when we had The Talk.

It was the first of many similar talks, and it was probably the most civil, though for me not the least painful and frustrating.

He explained that he was going through a celibate period in order to assist his spiritual development and ultimately his art. I believed him.I asked if this meant we were never going to be together, and he assured me it did not. It was just a matter of a few weeks, months at most; he had learned the technique from a mystic, he said and it really helped his creativity flourish.

"Oh, so you're doing kundalini yoga?" I asked.

"Huh? What's that?" :duh: :duh: :duh:

I explained how some said it was beneficial to build up the root chakra libido so that the serpent awakened, ascending the spine, and--

"Oh, yeah, it's something like that." :eek:uch:

Then some roommate or other arrived home and, seeing us on the balcony, came out to investigate.

I made my excuses and a hasty retreat but did not make it all the way to my car before hot tears of frustration began to spill. What had I gotten myself into?

At this point, I'm going to omit the following two chapters of what's bound to be a substantial portion of my memoir and jump ahead two years. During that time, I developed a full-fledged obsession over Tom. For a few months, he lived in my guest room, and then I helped him move into a place of his own because I didn't want the foot traffic at my house.

It was some time before I fully realized just how much of a sucker I have been.

Still, there is a part of me that continues, despite all evidence that I am the biggest fool of them all, and that I have been played well and good, and several times, and rather hard, and both my personal life and my career have suffered because of it--to hold out hope. The fact is I can't look at him without melting. I believed for a year that he was my soul-mate.

A gentleman my own age whom I dated years and years ago came back into my life briefly last year, and it might have turned into something quite serious, except I was unable to come to terms with Tom, and I'm not proud of my behavior by a long shot.

Over this time, I have cast the coins hundreds of times with respect to Tom and some new indignity or other, and the Yi seems determined to answer my question on those terms, even sometimes seeming to humor me about the fact of Tom's and my "relationship" but never pulling punches when it comes time to predict that it will all end in tears, as it often does with Tom, and they're never his tears.

At this point I'm told I've been reduced to something of a laughing stock, and he has a houseful of doubtful types constantly crashing there, and I believe he's building an army of homeless people or something like that--I'm not really sure, he hardly talks to me when I'm over there.

He hasn't returned a text or a phone call except to brusquely order a car or to argue violently with me since September 2016.

I am such an old fool; I will be 50 this year, and this can't go on. The ****er ought to be jailed as far as I'm concerned. But I cannot seem to extricate myself from his clutches for more than a few weeks or a couple months at a time. When Emily Dickinson wrote that "Hope is the thing with feathers," I think she meant that hope is a bloody piss-poor and uncomfortable object to have lodged in one's belly for so long.

I realized today that I had only ever consulted the Yi regarding the specifics of some particular situation or other with regard to Tom, and so today I asked:

Why did Tom come into my life? What lesson is there to learn that could possibly make all this worthwhile?

And I received 47.1 > 58

I have become accustomed to think of Tom and myself in terms of predator and victim, and I have developed a kind of learned helplessness; I have been wracked with self-doubt because I have allowed him to define who I am, and that is an unattractive old dude (note: I'm seven years his senior, and we're both Gen-X) who is kind of a fool and sometimes you have to listen to his stories but he can usually be counted on for a ride and some cash when necessary.

And, needless to say, the sexual component of our "relationship" never did resume. I know now that he's basically flogging it all over town. And I'm determined to be nonjudgmental and it's even rather exciting that he's so unconventional, but I've been reduced to hoping for a little bit on the side now and then, which I’ve been summarily denied, and whenever the subject comes up, he acts horrified like I'm some kind of sex maniac, and I suffer humiliation the likes of which I would never wish upon anyone, and he still expects me to believe that he lives a sanitary rather saintly existence helping all of these men and women “get back on their feet” while he enjoys temporary arrangements in various combinations and permutations which always exclude me.

I've had enough and I need to learn my lesson so I can close the chapter on this a**hole.

Any thoughts?

tl;dr: I got taken for a fool by a scoundrel and I can't seem to get over it.
 
Last edited:
D

diamanda

Guest
Hi brandxbear,

My goodness this was a long post! but nicely written :) Really sorry to hear you find yourself in this horrible position.

Why did Tom come into my life?
What lesson is there to learn that could possibly make all this worthwhile?
47.1 > 58


First, your question is presuming that all bad experiences in life are worthwhile. In my opinion they're not. Second, there are definitely lessons in everything. In the case of bad experiences, the lesson is that bad experiences suck, and should be avoided at all costs. Third, unfortunately there's a large amount of evil hypocritical manipulative people out there, and you seem to have fallen prey to one of the worse.

And onto the reading.

47.1 - the line describes a person, very alone, sitting underneath a bare tree without leaves. Inside a lonely obscure valley. The person stays there for about 3 years, under a tree which is dead. Tuck Chang says about this line: "A person has neither a solution for the current predicament nor hope for the future; he is plunged into a plight and can't get out, so he hides himself, which will last for quite awhile (...) The deep valley is obscure and not clear, like the future (...) one has no solution, no support, and no hope either". I do wonder if this partly describes your illness. A bare tree can signify ill health - or it can also signify lack of sexual fulfilment (or both, plus other things I'm sure).

The solution to this is 58. Instead of 47, where all the water drains out of the lake, in 58 we have two lakes, replenishing each other. Take yourself away from that leech, and seek someone to interact and replenish with. Exchange (58 also means exchange) him for someone else. No matter what he has told you, it's all lies (chastity and yoga, yeah sure...) - and the dark valley you're in can be escaped, as is promised by 58.

PS - my heartfelt congratulations for beating the disease, please keep well! Fingers crossed you soon find someone good.
 

brandxbear

visitor
Joined
Jan 13, 2018
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Overlooking an opportunity for escape?

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response, Diamanda. It sounds spot on to me.

The line describing the person isolated beneath the bare tree, I'm thinking in addition to the illness, it may also correspond to the increasing social isolation I experienced.

I think then, finding a way to reach escape velocity is my best bet.

I asked Yi to further clarify:

What approach will best help me escape the confines of this situation and maximize my potential?

48.3 to 29

The relating hexagram being Double Abyss, I think drives home the danger and despair I face every day by remaining, and I fear there may be reprisal should I announce that I'm taking my leave. He's recently made sure I know the existence of three individuals who "collect his taxes." (This means they collect his debts from whomever is foolish enough to remain in arrears.) I believe he means to manufacture a situation in which he will appear justified to set henchmen upon me.

The Well with Line 3 suggests I may be overlooking some opportunity. Hm ...
 
Last edited:
D

diamanda

Guest
What approach will best help me escape the confines of this situation and maximize my potential?
48.3 > 29


48.3 says that you're not clear-minded at the moment.
You've got a well which is full of fresh water, yet nobody's drinking.
Well & water can mean resources, money, general wealth - but above all: life.

You went through hell and you're now healthy again, try to see more clearly, use what you've got.
29 shows danger, and how to escape it: flow onwards full force, with utmost sincerity.

Reprisal? tax collectors? he's got a firm grip on your 'reality' right? Have a better think...
The opportunity you're overlooking is that you're alive.
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
3,290
Reaction score
1,069
Why did Tom come into my life? What lesson is there to learn that could possibly make all this worthwhile?

And I received 47.1 > 58

I second Diamanda's statement that not all people and all bad things that happen to us are dripping with meaning and learning.
As for learning, that is what a survivor does in hindsight.

You've indicated an obsession with 'Tom'. A self destructive obsession at that, that leads you into the no win situation. (the valley of gloom)

All the person in 47.1 has to do is get off his backside, and walk away, stop focusing on the situation and people.
Walk out of the valley of gloom, and on to better views.

As long as he reflects by beating himself up and insisting there is 'meaning here',
he is clinging to false hope, (lying to himself.)
and will be in misery.


About the 48.3,
You have healed after chemo.
You are 'good to go' as it were,
a clean well that needs to find the right person to share and cooperate with. (it's not these 'boys' look for someone mature.)
 

brandxbear

visitor
Joined
Jan 13, 2018
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
I second Diamanda's statement that not all people and all bad things that happen to us are dripping with meaning and learning. As for learning, that is what a survivor does in hindsight. You've indicated an obsession with 'Tom'. A self destructive obsession at that, that leads you into the no win situation. (the valley of gloom)....You have healed after chemo. You are 'good to go' as it were, a clean well that needs to find the right person to share and cooperate with. (it's not these 'boys' look for someone mature.)
Right you are! These are just the words I needed to hear! Thank you so much. :Big Grin:
 

brandxbear

visitor
Joined
Jan 13, 2018
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Thank you so much to Diamanda and Moss Elk for your thoughtful and insightful responses. This was the first time I posted to this Shared Readings board, although I have been reading it for a few months now. I find it helpful to read people's interpretations of other people's readings, but man! There's nothing like having specific input about my own situation. Again, i can't thank you enough. Blessed be, all. You two and Yi have given me just the insight I needed. Suddenly I have this change in perspective that I could have had at any time ... but why didn't I think of it?!?! LOL. Wow! Thank you, thank you!XOXOXO
 

Carmina

visitor
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
50
Reaction score
6
If you just look at the hexagram, you can see that the lake in the lower trigram is open in the first line, the water is leaking down. Apparently the Yi is telling you that you have already closed that leak. You are healed, the line is firm now, there is a scar maybe blocking the water, but you are ready to get together with friends, talk, laugh and be contented. You have already learned whatever he came to teach you. Happy return!!!
 

ernobe

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
96
Reaction score
12
As others have pointed out, 47 is draining the lake, and 58 shows you what a real lake looks like. Nanjing rules give it as 47.3(8) which reads:

The third SIX, divided, shows its subject straitened before a (frowning) rock. He lays hold of thorns. He enters his palace, and does not see his wife. There will be evil.

Maybe if you took on more female companionship, perhaps a cleaning lady, you could avoid the evil by entering your palace and seeing your "wife".
 

Olga Super Star

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
3,649
Reaction score
596
Maybe if you took on more female companionship, perhaps a cleaning lady, you could avoid the evil by entering your palace and seeing your "wife".
If I understand it correctly, he wants a guy, not a woman!

But even if he did want a woman, how could a cleaning lady be considered as female companionship?!
A cleaning person is just an employee. Male or female shouldn’t t really matter and after their job the re usually supposed to go home, unless you meant a live-in housemaid? But how would that turn into a wife?!
 

ernobe

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
96
Reaction score
12
If I understand it correctly, he wants a guy, not a woman!

He's had a problem with someone because of that persons' sex, and I'm simply suggesting a sense of balance, based on the reading he got from the I-Ching which confirms the one sided nature of his problem.
 

Olga Super Star

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
3,649
Reaction score
596
Are you serious? How do you dare talking like that.

And by the way What you suggest is insulting. A cleaning lady! It is insulting not just for the person who wrote this post but also for us women. You are considering women as prostitutes and homosexuals as evil.

Don t you dare writing such things again.
 
Last edited:

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,904
Reaction score
3,206
A cleaning lady may be hired for the work she does but often she becomes more than that, she often becomes a trusted confidant. The woman who worked as my aunt's housekeeper was with her for thirty year and spoke at her funeral.
I think ernobe's seeing 47.3 as saying brandexbear lacks and needs a female wife-like person in his life who knows him well and who would look after him and provide him with some regular human contact is not a bad interpretation of the line. I don't agree that the I Ching is saying this but it's I don't see it as insulting to suggest it.
 
Last edited:

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,224
Reaction score
3,477
(Always bearing in mind that...
a) When Yi says 'wife' it is only very rarely literally referring to a female life-companion - from the very start, marriage in the Yijing has provided an image for many kinds of partnership and union.
b) Since Brandxbear is gay, a sensible assumption in any relationship reading for him would be that 47.3 referred to a man, and
c) he received 47.1, not 47.3.
...)
 

equinox

visitor
Joined
Jan 19, 2017
Messages
721
Reaction score
57
He's had a problem with someone because of that persons' sex,

He has no problem with him because of his sex, but because he fell in love with him.

Are you serious? You are considering women as prostitutes.

It is not a bad thing to be a prostitute as long as a woman chose this profession freely.
 

equinox

visitor
Joined
Jan 19, 2017
Messages
721
Reaction score
57
... but still I think I get what you mean, olga. I guess you complain about the idea, that a cleaning person is regarded as responsible for giving 'female care' to a guy, which is indeed a sexist idea. And especially absurd in this case, since he never asked for female care.

A cleaning person is paid for cleaning, period.
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
3,290
Reaction score
1,069
It is not a bad thing to be a prostitute as long as a woman chose this profession freely.

How many prostitutes have you personally known? I have known several and I have never met one that wasn't abused/damaged or addicted to hard drugs. My female cousin was all three things before her death four years ago at age 32. The idea of a dignified prostitute is a myth.
 

equinox

visitor
Joined
Jan 19, 2017
Messages
721
Reaction score
57
How many prostitutes have you personally known? I have known several and I have never met one that wasn't abused/damaged or addicted to hard drugs. My female cousin was all three things before her death four years ago at age 32. The idea of a dignified prostitute is a myth.

I am sorry for your cousin and that she/you had to experience this, that is really horrible. And I share your opinion that many prostitutes are in a dilemma and horribly exploited. Still I disagree that 'the idea of a dignified prostitute is a myth'. I actually know sex workers who like what they do and even proudly engage in the pro-sexwork-movement. Of course, those are women in a privileged position, compared to a forced prostitute. In any case, I am against using the word 'whore' or 'prostitute' as an insult for a woman. In my eyes to me it is not a word that should be used as an insult. It should simply label a profession that should be respected like every other occupation.
 
Last edited:

equinox

visitor
Joined
Jan 19, 2017
Messages
721
Reaction score
57
... and if a woman decides to be a prostitute it is not our business to judge if she is too damaged to make an autonomous decision, that is kind of patronising in my opinion. It is her decision, as long as she is not forced at gunpoint or something like that. The world is an unfair place when it is a about money and people are exposed to financial pressure. It should be their own decision how to handle this pressure -- without being pitied, despised or looked down upon.
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
3,290
Reaction score
1,069
Especially I am against using the word 'whore' or 'prostitute' as an insult for a woman.
I'm really with you on this, not to insult or degrade them.

That the essence of the transaction is evil though can be illustrated thusly:
I have money (power), and with it, I will own you.
It is Slavery.

Oh yes, some women will tell themselves or their friends that they have power over the men. And that is a sickness in itself on their part. It's a revenge... It's why some women become strippers too. They think they are reclaiming or seizing power, but really they are allowing men to never need to mature or develop good qualities that would attract a woman and sex into their lives.

The Johns are the worst of the problem.
They are the ones who throw about the word 'whore' freely. They are the abusers. The ugliness inside them never has to change, they never need to develop good qualities inside that would attract a mate.

So, I see it as degrading to the life of both sides, and the greater world in which they live. Sorry for derailing the thread. It is just that I am a father who has raised two daughters and known many evil men.
 

equinox

visitor
Joined
Jan 19, 2017
Messages
721
Reaction score
57
Moss Elk, the story of your cousin is so sad, regarded from this perspective it is more than normal that you refuse to see the world of sex work as a world of glitz and glamour. I also don't do this by the way.
I just generally try to respect the decision of every person, no matter what I personally think of it. And if they say they like what they do, then I believe them, because I can't look inside their heads and I want to take them seriously. It is an endless topic and I think we agree, that not prostitutes are the problem, but the endless circumstances that force people into sometimes very unfavorable decisions and constellations.
Also sorry for being very off topic @brandxbear.
 

Olga Super Star

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
3,649
Reaction score
596
It is not a bad thing to be a prostitute as long as a woman chose this profession freely.
This is insulting to me and to all women but I am not going to discuss why as I don t want to fall into politics nor fight.
But maybe I should.

so let s point out the followings:
A person never chooses to sell themselves. Ever. That s a nice tale men tell themselves because it s bad to tell themselves that they re buying people and their desperation.

The real choice is to be free to go with whoever you want. for free. When money is involved, the word freedom doesn t apply.
Ever seen the wife of the president of the United States selling herself to whoever demands her in the streets or in one of those disgusting legal prostitution hotels you have in some places?

When someone is free they may choose to have sex with many people a night if they want to but they will certainly choose who they are going with.
Ask yourself why apart from women, those who get into prostitution are mostly transgenders or homosexuals. Especially transgenders about 90% of them sell their body.
A little bit suspicious in my view that such a job as you define it is mostly chosen by people who are not usually recognized by society as either men or women and therefore encounter serious problems in finding a standard job.

Selling or renting parts of our body has always been a taboo and can t be normalized in any society (governments have, but governments are made of men who are the clients of such business)

It s like saying that black people enjoyed slavery. Some of them certainly did as they were happy with their condition, but that was only due to the fact that they knew no other way of living.

That also applies to surrogacy and all that disgusting business of ordering and selling babies and renting female eggs and female bodies but we re working on an act to officially ban surrogacy all ov er the world.

[End of my political views, did not mean to hijack Bardxbear post but it is so important to me]
 

Olga Super Star

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
3,649
Reaction score
596
... but still I think I get what you mean, olga. I guess you complain about the idea, that a cleaning person is regarded as responsible for giving 'female care' to a guy, which is indeed a sexist idea. And especially absurd in this case, since he never asked for female care.

A cleaning person is paid for cleaning, period.
Exactly :)
The way it was put sounded like: Get a geisha in your house.

Something many men would say especially in the past but still nowadays.
I find it insulting as
Cleaning/house chores and sex is what men have wanted a woman for in history. They go hand in hand. In many cultures if you refuse cleaning or cooking the man won t marry you at all!!
 

equinox

visitor
Joined
Jan 19, 2017
Messages
721
Reaction score
57
olga, your wild mix-up of the topics prostitution, surrogacy, transgender rights and black slavery is... adventurous. ;)

I want to clarify once and for all that I do not want to glamourise prostitution, but defend the right of prostitutes to call what they do a profession, if they regard it as their profession.
And now I am out of this thread, have a nice day everybody.
 

ernobe

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
96
Reaction score
12
The OP has obviously been in a relationship in which he has had to find out the hard way that paying for love is not love itself. And I did not mean to suggest that he hire a prostitute, that all cleaning ladies are prostitutes, or that the cleaning profession is demeaning. I meant that he clean the house, that he stop the draining of the lake of 47, and have smooth transition into the joyful satisfaction of 58.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,991
Reaction score
4,495
so let s point out the followings:
A person never chooses to sell themselves. Ever. That s a nice tale men tell themselves because it s bad to tell themselves that they re buying people and their desperation.

You don't know if that's true. That is you don't know if a person never ever chooses to sell themselves. I agree the vast majority of those who sell sex for money have likely suffered abuse of some kind or through their early experiences have come to regard themselves as there for others use. But I know there are young women who simply do stripping/pole dancing etc to fund their education because they get more money for that than other jobs available to them. Whether some of them also sell their bodies as in prostitution who knows.

So there might be some who choose prostitution, probably very few, but I don't think you can say categorically no one ever ever chooses to sell sex. Also there is at least some element of choice for many, however slight. That is whilst it may be hard to get out of the life once you are in it it can't mean it's absolutely out of the question. Those physically held prisoner of course have no choice and those held in terror by their pimps not much choice.

Also if you think about it marriage itself was termed as 'legalised prostitution' by some, some years back when the only way a man could respectably get sex on tap was to marry a woman who got a house to live in in return.



The real choice is to be free to go with whoever you want. for free. When money is involved, the word freedom doesn t apply.

That's far too much of a blanket statement. I mean you need to appreciate the vast differences between prostitutes selling themselves for the price of a meal, sex slaves trafficked and held illegally and very high paid call girls with their own flat in London earning a few thousand pounds a night who is able to pick and choose her clientele and enjoys her job ! You can't possibly think they are all one category and you also cannot possibly know that no prostitute ever enjoyed her job. If she has 5 clients who pay her vast sums of money and she quite likes them all and sees them on her terms it is possible she will think she has made a reasonable living for herself.


Ever seen the wife of the president of the United States selling herself to whoever demands her in the streets or in one of those disgusting legal prostitution hotels you have in some places?

Er well yes she sold herself to Donald Trump. :confused: There can at times be a thin line between prostitution and marrying a rich old fart for his money and status..


Selling or renting parts of our body has always been a taboo and can t be normalized in any society (governments have, but governments are made of men who are the clients of such business)

Well as I said it has been normalized for centuries in the form of marriage. I don't mean all marriage in all times but you know in the past a lot of marriages were actually deals, contracts, with sex being part of the deal. Even in my parent's generation this was the case. I often over heard as a child when adults were gossiping things like 'well not surprising he left her she wasn't giving him any (sex)' the idea being the woman needed to make herself sexually attractive and available as part of the deal and if she didn't she could lose him and her home and financial security while he went off with another woman.

It s like saying that black people enjoyed slavery. Some of them certainly did as they were happy with their condition, but that was only due to the fact that they knew no other way of living.

It isn't. The problem with how you are thinking is you are not making any distinction at all between women who make a lot of money on their terms, by selling themselves and girls and women who have no choice at all, who are beaten and bullied and abused to the point where they expect little more. There are differences. I agree that on the whole there would be few enjoying or finding prostitution okay as compared to those who really don't though.
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
3,290
Reaction score
1,069
There have been many valid points brought up by several posters.

Since the querent never asked about prostitution though, let us not continue to derail the thread with the off topic talk.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,991
Reaction score
4,495
He's had a problem with someone because of that persons' sex, and I'm simply suggesting a sense of balance, based on the reading he got from the I-Ching which confirms the one sided nature of his problem.

No he didn't have a problem with someone because of their sex. Where did you get that idea from. The problem couldn't possibly have been solely caused by the fact his love interest was male, that makes no sense. How do you mean 'the one sided nature of his problem' ? What are you saying ? His questions were about a man and you say he needs a cleaning lady :confused:


In years gone by, as one might see by watching some Catherine Cookson dramas and the like it often seemed the case that if a man were alone or widowed and a woman came to clean it wasn't unusual for them to have a relationship and marry. Happened to the chef Nigel Slater's father. After his wife died he married his cleaning lady. It did used to happen, not uncommon.....years ago and when the man was heterosexual. But if the OP needs a woman in his life well I expect he has female friends, relatives, colleagues....why in the name of sanity would he need a female cleaner ?

The OP has obviously been in a relationship in which he has had to find out the hard way that paying for love is not love itself. And I did not mean to suggest that he hire a prostitute, that all cleaning ladies are prostitutes, or that the cleaning profession is demeaning. I meant that he clean the house, that he stop the draining of the lake of 47, and have smooth transition into the joyful satisfaction of 58.

:confused: paying for love ? eh did he say he paid for love ? I may have missed it, there's a lot to read but what I have read I can't see anywhere here that he paid for love.

You were saying he should clean his house ? The plot thickens :confused: You think a cleaning lady would mean he could '...have a smooth transition into the joyful satisfaction of 58'. You think a cleaning lady could give him 'joyful satisfaction'.

Hard to tell what angle you are coming from. I recognize the man marrying his cleaner story because it's not an uncommon scenario in the UK of yesteryear ...especially in Catherine Cookson novels because every time I have seen a TV adaptation of one of her novels the cleaner gets off with 'sir' and then stops calling him sir when he asks her her name and they have sex and get married. All her problems are solved because she can have her poor little brothers and sisters to live in the house with her and her husband and she now has security for the rest of her life and he, the husband, can have sex every night after a good home cooked meal in a spotless house. That is a happy ending for Catherine Cookson.

But here the OP is gay so why would he want a female cleaner to fall for him ?

Actually I might look for a cleaning job. Those women in the Catherine Cookson novels had it made.
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,991
Reaction score
4,495
Since the querent never asked about prostitution though,

...but enrobe said he did. I quote

ernobe
The OP has obviously been in a relationship in which he has had to find out the hard way that paying for love is not love itself.

I can't see the OP said anything about paying for love, have I missed something ?
 

moss elk

visitor
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
3,290
Reaction score
1,069
Correct,
More than one person made attribution errors on this thread.
Another directed a comment at equinox for something she didn't say.

Moderator Hat:
So!
Since the original poster seems satisfied with the answers, good to move on then?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top