56. Lu / The Wanderer

[Sparhawk]

Hi Luis,
The line in the commentary isn't a video from the Wanderer's hotel room. Whatever might have been required personal security weaponry on the road is NOT AT ALL what the commentary refers to in any way. The wanderer is sitting in his hotel room brandishing an ax and clutching his pack with all his worldly possessions. It is an image not a reality. Gia-Fu rendered the text like this:

Hi Frank,

Sometimes I wonder if you are a contrarian just for the sake of contrariety or just to show you have a different opinion, even if the difference is slight.

Allow me to remind readers what you wrote:

In this case it is hex 56 with a moving fourth line which is expressing its heart's desire, so it has property and an ax and some sort of shelter; however this line is not settled and its interests are purely materialistic and confrontational (peaceful folks don't carry an ax on the road).

First, I focused on your underlined words, not the text of the line, to demonstrate the historical fallacy of that specific image. Everyone that could afford it would carry a weapon of sorts, and I include all tools that could be brandished as weapons; specially those that embark in wanderings, only because roads have never, ever, been safe and least of all for lone travelers. I mean, it is a logical observation. Even peaceful Buddhist monks would carry something to protect themselves, if nothing more than their own hands and feet. Why you would immediately construe a confrontational attitude in the carrying of tool/weapon is puzzling for me.

Furthermore, the ROAD--the path of the wanderer--cannot be separated from the subject of the hexagram. Circumstantial stops along the way are only landmarks in his/her path.

Now, let's talk about the line's import as being "not settled and its interests are purely materialistic and confrontational." Where do you get that idea from? Why would you fix the time of 56.4 as being "materialistic and confrontational"? From the structure of the hexagram?

Personally, I don't see any of that materialistic or confrontational attitude in the line, either based on the structure of the hexagram or on the text. IMO, there are many ways to interpret it, but the one that jumps to the front, more often than not, is a feeling of empathy for the subject of the line. Now you know why I cannot see what you see. Actually, I could say with some property that ALL immigrants, here and everywhere, are good examples of what the text of the line shows. Perhaps hard to empathize for those whom have never been immigrants but I hope I don't have to explain why the line could be a song to them...

Structure yields narrative...
Frank

Indeed: 56.4>52

 

[Trojina]

Hi Trojan,
There could well be many views of the term "ax" in various contexts. However, the line judgment is set in this case within the Wanderer's hotel room. No one needs to brandish any sort of ax within the confines of their own bedroom. This is an upset and internally disturbed Wanderer who needs to heed the positive and peaceful implications of the resultant hex 52. Come to accept the silliness of the dead end into which the Wanderer has come to rest, meditate, regroup, get oneself still. This is the implication of the oracle hex 56.4 >> 52.

Hi Rodaki,
No need to try to stab with an ax. The context of the narrative of the line judgment is an uprooted Wanderer in his hotel room with money and an ax. Clearly, he is objectively OK; however, he is not a happy fellow. This implies he is suffering inner turmoil--he is after all an uprooted Wanderer in a traditional ancient culture where individual choice is not generally an option. This is not the Old West of Western TV serials, the Wanderer is a strange and unusual condition and the fourth line is the place of the heart. The Wanderer is expressing the fullness of his heart while on the road. He is brandishing his ax and holding tightly to his money in an attempt to make objective inroads upon his psychological state--it isn't working out very well and his one hope is to move along to the resultant hex timing of hex 52. Get himself still, rest, meditate and hope to solve his subjective trauma.

Frank

I do find this quite useful thanks, as generally commentaries just state the wanderer isn't happy and so one is left thinking 'well what then ?' whats to do about that ?'. So your're saying what the wanderer needs to do (or not do)in 56.4 is drop his defensive stance, find some stillness, be more accepting of this pause in the journey. I'd say that tallied with my experience of the line

 

[meng]

Actually, I could say with some property that ALL immigrants, here and everywhere, are good examples of what the text of the line shows. Perhaps hard to empathize for those whom have never been immigrants but I hope I don't have to explain why the line could be a song to them...

Thanks for this image.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Luis,
You seem to feel a need to confront me, I am very sorry about that--however, I do not read everything, especially when it is on a subject I have already digested thoroughly.

In this case you are correct that the post of mine you quote was in error. I was reacting to the words of the commentary rather than delving deeper into the structure of the decad; and like everyone who only deals with words not the decad/Tetratkys structure my interpretation was faulty.

The hexagrams from 51 to 60 deal with the issues of individual subjectivity as that starts out from a traumatic realization or Divine thunder strike to the heart (cf. Wilhelm on hex 51 and line 3 therein) and how that works out in its various ways with the final quiescent solution being hex 60 where the rushing waters come to rest in the topography of the Lake.

Hex 56 is the Rambling boy or Wanderer, a 6th hexagram of its set and thus the end product of this process--the poor fellow uprooted and wandering without any settled situation or family connections. The lines of this hexagram indicate the various ways in which its component line places change the hexagram timing by their changes. Hex 56.4 is where the Wanderer expresses his soul and by that release comes to at least a still place within himself when his pent up emotions are spent.

My apologies for not having my answer fully formed at the beginning, I am still realizing the full power of my structural perspective and this discussion helps me greatly in working things out. I am not just being contrary, and the difference in my perspective is not slight at all, but I have not yet fully figured it all out.

The wanderer is not really on a path or road, he is traumatized and uprooted which requires him to keep moving since he is besieged by his own demons in his soul and cannot stop anywhere. That is why this line, the place of the soul offers a special release and the opportunity to work through his unhappiness.

The notion of line 4 being materialistic comes from the words of the commentary, that he has shelter and property but is not happy. It is the structure of the hexagram and of the decad that shows this to be a bit superficial and as you point out my earlier post was in error.

That the Wanderer is aware of "being a stranger in a strange land" is more a statement of psychological alienation than of the immigrant experience. For myself, though a native born American the 1960's were a time of considerable alienation. First returning from a few months in Argentina speaking as though English was a strange language to me. Then with the political upheavals of later that decade where the feeling of being an exile in the world of Johnson and Nixon was commonplace. This line is an anthem of alienation which can have many objective causes--the line is all about the subjective ultimately, though.

Again, my apologies if I touched upon painful details in my process of working through the implications of this hexagram and line from both the Taoist translation by Gia-fu and my own structural analysis from the Taiji and Tetratkys.

Frank

 

[fkegan]

I do find this quite useful thanks, as generally commentaries just state the wanderer isn't happy and so one is left thinking 'well what then ?' whats to do about that ?'. So your're saying what the wanderer needs to do (or not do)in 56.4 is drop his defensive stance, find some stillness, be more accepting of this pause in the journey. I'd say that tallied with my experience of the line

Hi Trojan,
You extracted the practical advice of line 4 of hex 56. In its own terms it is describing a situation of alienation which has brought on deep sadness and upset. The passion remains strong and focal (line 3 Yang) but the heart's feeling is being expressed and exhausted so his crying and fury and upset are useful in relieving the pain. Overall, it would suggest that the fundamental issue is the feeling of being uprooted and alienated which needs to be healed more than just how to cope with the defensive stance and unhappy feelings.

I am gratified my abstract structural analysis tallies with your experience of the line.

Frank

 

[rosada]

I'm seeing a similarity between 56.2 and 56.4 in that they both have shelter and property, but while the first is quite pleasant, the second feels isolated and lonely. Seems to be a miniature example of life on the road: the first night out can be kinda fun, but it gets old.

"Tonight I'll sing my songs again, I'll play the game and pretend..."

Hmm, maybe 56.4 is the point where just being someplace new is not enough, the soul now realizes they are no longer content just to wander alone. They feel the loneliness and this inspires 56.5, introducing oneself in this strange land.

Anyway, that's what I see in it. I know others with their own needs and experiences will see other things. No big deal. No need to argue about it, no need to impose penalties or protract lawsuits.

Maybe sharing an experience/interpretation here should be treated like the sharing of a pheasant. If we wanderers are good enough to post our insights, I say praise the one who shares. Why argue about right or wrong? We're all just passing through.

Well, I'm skipping ahead again. Back to posting the second part of 56.4
r.

 

[rosada]

"The wanderer rests in a shelter." He has not yet obtained his place.
"He obtains his property and an ax." But he is not yet glad at heart.

The shelter is only temporary, because the line is outside the trigram Ken. It rests only briefly, because it has not yet reached its true place (the line is strong, the place is weak). Although it has property, it also needs an ax for defense (Li means weapons, and the nuclear trigram Tui means both metal and injury). Hence it is not yet glad at heart.
_Wilhelm

 

[bamboo]

I like the image of the Ugly Duckling (once again) who embarks on his road journey, completely lost and only just learning the ways of the world he traverses. he starts to get his bearings, but loses the good graces of more than a few dwelling places. then he really despairs and practically gives up, gets frozen solid in ice. At this juncture a kindly farmer comes and gets him out of the ice, takes him home and takes him in. It is a necessary stop. when life on the road has become unbearable, a place to thaw out the frozen heart is a godsend. dropping the defenses, and resting, is really all he is able to do. but he doesnt belong there and he knows it, sorrowfully. his belly is full and conceivably they have a role for him to play, but he knows he doesnt fit in..cant lay eggs like the chicken, or be a homebody comfort like the cat. he is lonely for his true home, even though he doesnt know where that is yet or maybe if he will ever even find it

 

[my_key]

As a once traveling soloist musician, I can think of no clearer example of 56.4. The road is a lonely place. Even on nights when the audience is receptive and joyous, going back to a hotel or motel room is not a happy experience. You don’t know anyone, and you’d better be careful in this strange place. A little additional synchronicity is that a guitar is called an ax: ones tool for making music, and a living. I've also seen it used as a defensive weapon in a pinch, lol.

nice one. I think I've got the live album. "Meng Unplugged"

So here we are taking a rest from our solitary life on the road, with all the challenges of it's trials and tribulations and new experiences. The 56 experience can be a tough one and we feel good about taking a well earned rest. However, on the flip side we know that where we are resting is not where we would ideally like to be. It's not a very exciting or pleasing place and we still have that urging (we all have an axe to grind) that will take us on again when the time is right for us to move out of the shelter.

I see it as a bit like the eye of the storm. Nice and quiet when you can find it, but you just know it isn't going to last for ever.

Mike

 

[maremaria]

he is lonely for his true home, even though he doesnt know where that is yet or maybe if he will ever even find it

Nostalgia, where nostos ( return to home) , could be also for a home the wanderer have never been before or a *forgotten* one

 

[rosada]

Random musings...

I'm thinking how in Hex.1 the seeker is advised to remain still at the beginning and then from there he advances until at 1.5 he is joining the flock of dragons in the sky. I'm wondering if 56. is a replay of this experience, the difference being that in hex.1 there is no memory of having done this all before. In 56. the seeker recognizes that we are repeating something.
1.1 Don't touch a thing.
56.1 Oh God. here's all the stuff I shouldn't have gotten involved with coming up to tempt me. Keep walking...
1.2 See the person I came here to meet.
56.2 Okay, I'm seeing some good things... So far so good...little jaded this time around, don't expect to meet the ONE, more like expecting to recognize good people.
1.3 Do everything I can think of to make myself seen.
56.3 No, no, DO NOT make yourself seen so soon this time.
1.4 This is as far as you can go by yourself.
56.4 Okay, got everything set up as far as I know. Something new coming in...
1.5 Connect with your group.
56.5 THIS time you don't just slip in, THIS time you know better, you know you need to introduce yourself properly.
1.6 Trying to lead the group - wrong!
56.6 Taking your membership for granted - wrong!

rosada

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Luis,
You seem to feel a need to confront me, I am very sorry about that--however, I do not read everything, especially when it is on a subject I have already digested thoroughly.

Frank,

I've no desire to confront you but I cannot ignore everything you say, specially when it is addressed to me. I try, believe me, and in that I'm sure I have more success than you, that seem to find, and expose, a diverging opinion for just about anything that is posted here. Which is fine, but then don't be surprised when people diverge back at you. As for the underline, I can't possibly reply to that without confronting you, so I'll pass.

My apologies for not having my answer fully formed at the beginning, I am still realizing the full power of my structural perspective and this discussion helps me greatly in working things out. I am not just being contrary, and the difference in my perspective is not slight at all, but I have not yet fully figured it all out.

But you are, and I said "even if the difference is slight," not that your opinion were slightly different in that particular case...

That the Wanderer is aware of "being a stranger in a strange land" is more a statement of psychological alienation than of the immigrant experience. For myself, though a native born American the 1960's were a time of considerable alienation. First returning from a few months in Argentina speaking as though English was a strange language to me. Then with the political upheavals of later that decade where the feeling of being an exile in the world of Johnson and Nixon was commonplace. This line is an anthem of alienation which can have many objective causes--the line is all about the subjective ultimately, though.

You'll see it as you will, Frank. There is no "feeling" of alienation without subjectivity. The causality factors might be objective from different points of view and by third party observers, not the feeling itself.

Again, my apologies if I touched upon painful details in my process of working through the implications of this hexagram and line from both the Taoist translation by Gia-fu and my own structural analysis from the Taiji and Tetratkys.

Now you are being condescending and assuming; never a good combination but kind of expected, nevertheless.

BTW, a bit of useless trivia: the concept underlying the Tetratkys and the denary system was developed by the Shang, at least a thousand years before Pythagoras. I only mention this because I know they enjoy your high esteem.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Luis,
Most of your post seems to indicate an impasse between us which I regret. But so be it.
I have only one perspective that I express and that is the structural analysis of the Yi hexagrams and the Monad, Dyad, Triad and Tetrad perspectives which give such depth and context to the hexagram structures. One does need to be open to this or apparently it just makes no sense at all.

I do appreciate your encyclopedic research and I am most pleased by your line:

BTW, a bit of useless trivia: the concept underlying the Tetratkys and the denary system was developed by the Shang, at least a thousand years before Pythagoras. I only mention this because I know they enjoy your high esteem.

I don't consider the structural system my innovation so the fact that these concepts go back to the Shang is a great positive to me. I work with the global awareness of the 6th century BCE and clearly the King Wen Sequence is older going back to 1100 BCE. Personally, I am pleased the Chinese worked these things out centuries earlier.

It is just that the Pythagorean forms are more accessible to me and therefore I can use the dice face dot patterns to understand the Tetratkys and then on to the Taiji and the KWS. It is my limitation that I require these scaffoldings to figure it all out. However, having crawled into this understanding I appreciate it.

I appreciate the Shang, I just don't consider them the end of the line. Clearly the KWS indicates taking these prior and archaic elements and turning them into a description of meaning rather than just line elements and other details. That is the triumph of the gestalt perspective, it arranges and organizes simple elements to form advanced symbolism at a higher level of cognitive development.

Remember, going from the concrete details to concepts, process, symbolism or gestalt is a major intellectual and philosophical advance which was inconceivable to most folks from before the Shang through Conservatives this very day.

Again, I thank you for mentioning the detail that the elements which the King Wen group put together was around centuries earlier. In intellectual history there is the note that a group (often stated as father and son and their friends and associates) develop a new insight which spreads far and wide during their lifetimes. However, after that its understanding gets cloudy and the insight only remains as a spiritual idea with a ritual of how to actually do the work (like cast a horoscope or Yi oracle) which may last for millennia before it finally gets re-established and becomes practical every day reality.

My professor of history of technology noted that it was several millennia after the development of fired pottery Venus figurines before there was a fired clay pot. Similarly, millennia between the first archaeological finds of metal before there is a metal knife. In both cases, the early pottery was carefully excised with marks like woven reed baskets and the early metal knives were carefully worked to have markings like those of chipped flint knives they were introduced to replace.

There is rigorous method to my madness and a long academic tradition attached to my views. I just don't bother with the pedantic details since one either is open to the ideas or not and the academic scholarship isn't relevant, especially in these days that the academic community of scholars was sacrificed to the military need to stop the student protests that brought down the war machine for a brief time before it was redone in the general Conservative backlash just coming apart nowadays.

Oh well, perhaps some folks appreciate new thinking even if it violates the expectations of the Wilhelm aficionados.

My best regards,
Frank

 

[rodaki]

freeze

just a couple of thoughts


it took some time for me to see the idea of shock (or trauma as otherwise mentioned) as the main driving force of 56
yet I believe trauma/shock is a thing we all have in our baggage and in many ways it does incite explorations
I'm tempted thus to see in 56 ways of trying to deal with this experience:
56.1: at first you might try to laugh it away but you laugh too hard and people are getting nervous
56.2: well then, you let it be, forget about it, life can be good besides that anyways
56.3: here it rears its ugly head again, chop it off quickly -get away!!
56.4: back to a certain normality again but no innocent bliss, one knows there's sth lurking, if you go on like this you're just stuck in a vicious circle so, stop for a while, re-evaluate, focus, still the urges of the heart, its compulsions, its fears
Quite recently I found out there is a third way people might react to a possibly threatening encounter or recognition -besides the fight/flight there is the 'freeze' case
Freeze is the advice often given in coming across beasts -I find it a way lying between terror and self-control, or maybe it is just a mask
and it comes with its own pitfalls cause freeze might lock one into their room indefinitely such that it must be a passing state

the other thing I'd like to share is how I feel this freezing moment -temporary as it may be- has the potential of real change.
For some reason I keep thinking that at this point obscure journey becomes a route (with all its implications of destination or routine)
I mean, only when one sums up the courage to just look at what is confronting them can the journeymen start seeing with some clarity (entering Fire)
I've read commentaries and all seem to point to an unfinished journey but there are many ways to move and many different roads one can take going to work
What I'm trying to say is that I don't see anything in this line or the coming ones that imply a continuation of wanderings, I only see a way into learning a new itinerary, which invites attachment, tending the cow.

Bradford writes:

To make himself at home is his job and he's only halfway home. He lies down to dream of tomorrow

I realize one is still a lodger, not an owner, but in greek we say 'there's nothing more permanent than the temporary'


now,
:bows:

 

[bamboo]

I just don't bother with the pedantic details since one either is open to the ideas or not and the academic scholarship isn't relevant, especially in these days that the academic community of scholars was sacrificed to the military need to stop the student protests that brought down the war machine for a brief time before it was redone in the general Conservative backlash just coming apart nowadays.

what the heck? Frank, sometimes your sentences start off making sense and then you seem to go off into a bi-polar episode.

 

[Trojina]

seems to be getting a habit around here to call people 'bi-polar' when you have a problem with what they say. Someone did so to me a few weeks back. I don't think using the term for a genuine mental illness as some kind of insult is really on...its insulting to those who do suffer from it and for those who don't well what right have you to diagnose and label them for flippant effect.

Plus your comment does show some ignorance about bi-polar IMO

Interesting to me that some members whose behaviour is way more disturbed than Franks are not labelled this way ? Weird ! Well obviously weirdness is in the eye of the beholder, but i think it preferable to find some other way to express bafflement at someones mode of speech than pick a label from the diagnostic manual. How would you like to be called 'schizo' each time you changed you mind...well that would be daft because schizophrenia does not mean one changes ones mind alot...anymore than being inconsistent means one is bipolar or whatever it was in Franks post made you decide he had bipolar

 

[rosada]

When we study these hexagrams we get caught up in the vibration of the hexagram.

 

[rodaki]

. . now, where was that cow tied again?

 

[Trojina]

When we study these hexagrams we get caught up in the vibration of the hexagram.

I don't think so though i know you do

 

[Trojina]

. . now, where was that cow tied again?

theres a cow in 56 ? you're not thinking 25.3 are you ?

 

[Tohpol]

They like to wander and they often get tangled up in various things so I suppose it could apply to both.

I like cows. Docile, lovable creatures. Stupid but loveable.

Well, that's my contribution - carry on.

Topal

 

[Sparhawk]

I like cows. Docile, lovable creatures. Stupid but loveable.

Global warming be damned and with the pardon of Buddhists and Hindus everywhere, tasty, specially on the grill...

 

[Trojina]

They like to wander and they often get tangled up in various things so I suppose it could apply to both.

I like cows. Docile, lovable creatures. Stupid but loveable.

Well, that's my contribution - carry on.

Topal

so stupid they sometimes trample people underfoot. people have sustained quite serious injuries via herds of cows

 

[rosada]

If we were to assign a book to each line I'd recommend the one I'm reading now for 56.4. Scribbling The Cat, the account of a woman's return to Zambabwe to heal her demons after the revolution. In her wanderings she finds that although the land is now at peace, the people still bear the scars of war. Seemed to fit with what we've been studying here with line 56.4 and the sense of trying to regroup after the destructive 56.3.

Went through all the hexagrams that had Li, Fire/Clarity, for the top trigram. Seems that because the fourth line is at the bottom line of the trigram, the beginning line, clarity, understanding, is just at the beginning in this position.
Interesting because the fourth position is the line of the minister or adviser, so whenever Li, the trigram for clarity is involved, it's a situation where the minister isn't all that strong or seeing these too clearly.
Finally at 64.4 the light dawns and he is able to have effect but until then there's a sense of only being able to see there are difficulties but not having the understanding to resolve them. In 56.4 the wanderer has his property and his weapon (Wilhelm sees the ax as a tool and a weapon), but he his clarity is limited and his heart is not glad.
r

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Frank,

Another day... I'll reply with reluctance at the prospect of dragging this on and on and on.

I have only one perspective that I express and that is the structural analysis of the Yi hexagrams and the Monad, Dyad, Triad and Tetrad perspectives which give such depth and context to the hexagram structures. One does need to be open to this or apparently it just makes no sense at all.

Actually, that makes sense to me. Perhaps my issue with your rhetoric has to do with the way it is presented: Frank Kegan not only figured the classic out but invented the "Yijing Wheel" by the sheer power of his deductive mind. Forget about millennia of exegesis. And I know this because you don't waste any time in dismissing historical and archeaological findings as "grave robbing"

It isn't that I'm not open to your ideas, I've an issue with the "gospelization" of them like the Second Coming of the Yijing. I believe you missed the years of Chris Lofting here. The man, with utmost honesty, flat out dismissed the historical baggage of the Yijing (he derided the whole thing as nonsense that held back serious students of the Yijing), took the hexagrams as symbols of meaning for neurological and emotional connections and made the whole NEW system his own. Fine, I actually commend him for that as he could have used 64 random paintings in a museum (or cloud patterns, for that matter) as long as duality could be expressed and Boolean Algebra applied to it, but the hexagrams of the Yijing were right there, handy and free for the taking. Kudos to him for his honesty and well researched findings.

You on the other hand, seem to have a foot in both realms and pick and chose convenient details from each and dismiss what, seemingly, is of no importance. Well, IMHO, you can't have it both ways. Either you embrace what was there before as exegesis and archeaological findings, so when it is quoted back to you you don't dismiss it with a wry smile and a "grave robbing" statement; or own, once and for all, that this is Frank Kegan's system and what Frank Kegan finds in the structure of the Yijing and what it means for him. That's basically the gist of my issue with your views and why we don't seem to click. It isn't with the system, which I find as interesting as any I've studied.

It is just that the Pythagorean forms are more accessible to me and therefore I can use the dice face dot patterns to understand the Tetratkys and then on to the Taiji and the KWS. It is my limitation that I require these scaffoldings to figure it all out. However, having crawled into this understanding I appreciate it.

Well, the Chinese have been using dots and "pearl strings" to convey meaning and numerological ideas for ages before the Bible mentioned the "casting of lots." But I understand your accessibility claim. Fine, I'm glad to read that.

My professor of history of technology noted that it was several millennia after the development of fired pottery Venus figurines before there was a fired clay pot. Similarly, millennia between the first archaeological finds of metal before there is a metal knife. In both cases, the early pottery was carefully excised with marks like woven reed baskets and the early metal knives were carefully worked to have markings like those of chipped flint knives they were introduced to replace.

Indeed, not only that, humans have been marking duality symbols for eons until finally, something like the Yijing, developed. The reason I try to read as much as I can is to sustain some claims of my own. See, I also have a system I've been working on for many years. It is all functional and ready to go, but, I don't want to release it until I gather enough historical material that might indicate this was acceptable for a primitive mind as a starting point down the complex "duality/polarity path." All because the system calls for the replacement of the hexagrams as we know them... The thing is that I want to own a sort of re-discovery based on historical and archaeological facts, not an outright "discovery" of something new. I try to approach the whole thing gingerly and with respect for what came before my idea as there would be not an "idea" if I haven't had spent so many years with the Yijing and associated literature and exegesis.

There is rigorous method to my madness and a long academic tradition attached to my views. I just don't bother with the pedantic details since one either is open to the ideas or not and the academic scholarship isn't relevant, especially in these days that the academic community of scholars was sacrificed to the military need to stop the student protests that brought down the war machine for a brief time before it was redone in the general Conservative backlash just coming apart nowadays.

That's my case too but, many times, your words seem to discard the "long academic tradition," which many times calls for the diving, head on, into "graves"...

 

[bamboo]

seems to be getting a habit around here to call people 'bi-polar' when you have a problem with what they say. Someone did so to me a few weeks back. I don't think using the term for a genuine mental illness as some kind of insult is really on...its insulting to those who do suffer from it and for those who don't well what right have you to diagnose and label them for flippant effect.

Plus your comment does show some ignorance about bi-polar IMO

I know perfectly well what bi-polar is - as far as the medical condition , some of my very best friends are bi-polar and I dont think it is taboo to discuss it or even to be humorous about it
sorry to ruffle your feathers, ducky


and altho I suspected some would think me politaically incorrect by using that term I only meant it literally: TWO opposite POLES, coming from two different ends. coming out of left field obviously

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT SENTENCE ABOVE of FRank Kegan's, TROJAN???? or are you just blowing your horn because you feel like being cranky? the sentence makes no sense. thats all I meant, and frank does that a lot! maybe he is brilliant in his own way, but he does not WRITE in a way that is understandable, because he gets lost in his own subjectively connected, but diverse to the reader, thoughts

 

[rosada]

56.5
0 six in the fifth place means:
He shoots a pheasant.
It drops with the first arrow.
In the end things brings both praise and office.

Traveling statesmen were in the habit of introducing themselves to local princes with the gift of a pheasant. Here the wanderer wants to enter the service of the prince. To this end he shoots a pheasant, killing it at the first shot. Thus he finds friends who praise and recommend him, and in the end the prince accepts him and confers an office on him.

Circumstances often cause a man to seek a home in foreign parts. If he knows how to meet the situation and how to introduce himself in the right way, he may find a circle of friends and a sphere of activity even in a strange country.
-Wilhelm

 

[Trojina]

I have a dim view of this line, i don't think the prize is that good. Probably I'm remembering a discussion about it somewhere here..about what the traveller shoots is actually a chicken on a string, you know no big attainment, something mediocre. I will link to it if i find it.

 

[Tohpol]

I have a dim view of this line, i don't think the prize is that good. Probably I'm remembering a discussion about it somewhere here..about what the traveller shoots is actually a chicken on a string, you know no big attainment, something mediocre. I will link to it if i find it.

Ah, the old "throw-a-chicken-in-the-air-with-a-string attached to-it's-feet" ruse.

Beats flying kites.

Topal

 

[fkegan]

I just don't bother with the pedantic details since one either is open to the ideas or not and the academic scholarship isn't relevant, especially in these days that the academic community of scholars was sacrificed to the military need to stop the student protests that brought down the war machine for a brief time before it was redone in the general Conservative backlash just coming apart nowadays.

what the heck? Frank, sometimes your sentences start off making sense and then you seem to go off into a bi-polar episode.

Hi Bamboo,
Sorry my remarks upset you. They had nothing to do with psychology just history-- about the sad state of the U.S. academic community after Nixon's secret invasion of Cambodia was revealed and students across the U.S. went out on strike and the Dept of Defense reorganized their grant program to separate the science students who were drowning in Federal cash in exchange for keeping their record clear so they could attain classified clearance and the humanities and art students whose budgets and available grants were cut to the bone. I had fortunately graduated by then but still came back to campus and the coup was clear and very sad to me.

There weren't actually two poles in my terms dyad like Yang/Yin or anything coming out of left field involved in my remarks. I was referring to my academic history and how I did not tend to cite my bibliographic references in my posts since scholarship had taken a bad turn in my view back in the '70s. As you post from your experience and POV, I from mine. I thought I sufficiently explained the context as not being hung up in claiming bibliography authority since a reader would either be open to an idea or not and a library citation wouldn't add much more.

Again my apologies for confusing you.:bows:

Frank