...life can be translucent

Menu

58.3

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
131
In the 27 unchanging thread, Sooo replied to an example by saying that 58.3 can mean something like (quoting Sooo), "you're cold, looking in the wrong place."

While that interpretation fits the example exactly ("close, but not quite") - and therefore Sooo seems to be exactly correct - I'm not seeing how to get that concept from 58.3.

Hilary translates 58.3 in her book as:

"Coming opening, pitfall."

The authors I've read on this (not that that's a great abundance) seem to talk about (ahem, lecture against) self-indulgence, pursuit of pleasure, harmful diversions, and so forth, which don't seem to have anything to do with finding a missing knife blade.

However, Bradford translates 58.3 as

"Future joy. Disappointing."

and adds (in a sub-section labelled 58.3x):

"Future joy holds disappointment:
The position is not appropriate."


So there is the "wrong place" idea, and Bradford also has the words "deferring gratification" in his commentary. Which does fit - I was looking for the missing blade with somewhat the right general idea, but in the wrong specific place, and I didn't find it until the future (two months later).

But at the time, even if I had latched tightly onto Brad's interpretation rather than the apparently more common, lecture-y one, it would not have impressed me (see: cats + missing, very sharp, knife blade). I would have needed to hear not just that I'd find it someday (and that in a vague, one-out-of-six-commentaries way, because why would I believe one and disregard the rest, no offense to Brad since he seems to be correct in this case :D) - but that it would do no harm for it to remain missing. To get all of that out of 58.3 seems (to me) like a stretch. (The fact is, though, that it actually didn't do any harm for it to remain missing - the blade had fallen onto a decorative wicker rack and was safely out of the way of cats.)

I just looked through the more than two dozen (oy) readings I did that night, and - for example - none of them were 51.2:

"Shock comes, danger.
A hundred thousand lost coins.
Climb up the nine hills, don't give chase.
On the seventh day, gain."


I know it drives people nuts when I go on about, "Why didn't I get this reading insteaaaad...", but, you know, I might have taken 51.2 to heart that night!

But anyway - Sooo, would you explain a little bit how you got the "close, but not exactly" idea from 58.3? Was it from Brad?

It may be impossible to solve the mystery of Yi and the missing knife blade. None of us has the energy to pick through a ridiculous spree of 30-odd readings (including me, and they're my readings).

But does anyone have examples of 58.3 in these sorts of ways?
 
Last edited:

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
131
The authors I've read on this (not that that's a great abundance) seem to talk about (ahem, lecture against) self-indulgence, pursuit of pleasure, harmful diversions, and so forth, which don't seem to have anything to do with finding a missing knife blade.
Well - I suppose I did get distracted by something in the process of dealing with the knife blade that night, or it would have been in its little box inside its little drawer where it belonged.

Yi might have just been yelling at me? (For 30-some readings?) Mitigating against that dismal outlook is the fact that Sooo and Bradford's interpretations of 58.3 fit the actual outcome: I was looking in the wrong place, and I'd find the blade in the future. So I'm inclined to think that's what Yi was trying to say. I just don't see those meanings in any translation/commentary I looked at other than Brad's - it seems to be a minority viewpoint, unless I'm missing great swaths of things.
 
S

sooo

Guest
I did peek at Brad's line 3 actually, and liked his non-judgmental, matter-of-fact way of expressing it.

LiSe has very interesting things said about coming and going, I think as an addendum to her 39? Not sure.

To me, this line generally discourages looking (hmm, looking) for happiness in what one hopes is coming, which means that one is not happy unless it comes, and not until it comes. Which means one is meanwhile unhappy. That's not something the Yi would encourage. However, without the moral of the story included, it just gave me the impression of the hot and cold game we played as kids; you know: Oh, you're hot! Oh, now you're getting colder. Kind of farfetched I guess, but it left me with the impression of you being close to it but no seegar - your future joy (this way will be) disappointing. And then this: Your position is not correct.

And 43 sort of chiding: listen to what I said! I place a lot of stock in LiSe's "the speaking staff", for 43. Since you weren't speaking, I could only surmise it referred to Yi's own words.
 
Last edited:
S

sooo

Guest
Lisa, you know, another thought occurred to me here. Ever notice how sometimes the harder we try, the further we get? Like trying to remember a name, or where we left something. But the further we get from trying to force it, the sooner it pops into our head or whatever is lost suddenly seems to magically turn up. That can relate to "coming joy", as though trying to make it appear, or trying to make it come to us.
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
131
LiSe has very interesting things said about coming and going, I think as an addendum to her 39?
Is this the page?

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/origins/come_go.htm

it just gave me the impression of the hot and cold game we played as kids; you know: Oh, you're hot! Oh, now you're getting colder.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. And that analogy was exactly correct in this case (or as correct as Yi can probably get - it doesn't have words for "wicker rack"). I'm sorry to say I'm still not following how you got to the "hot/cold" idea, but that's okay - you said it was an impression, which can be impossible to explain.

I could even see how 58.3 could be about the situation as a whole - "don't let your entire happiness depend on finding this knife blade" (or, "don't let it ruin your whole night," which of course is exactly what happened). But since I got it as an answer to a very specific question (and not to one of several panicked "WHERE IS IT?!?!" non-questions), I think your interpretation is what Yi was really trying to say.

I found another reading involving 58.3 I'd done about a missing item (in that case, I was trying to help my neighbor find something when she was moving), only in that one 58.3 was the fan yao, so...

I haven't found a comprehensible example in my readings, actually - my notes on 58.3 are proving to be even more abysmal than most - I think I just have never understood it at all, or else assumed Yi was yelling at me for the sake of yelling, so I've apparently never bothered to write much down about the readings :(.

But that has changed a bit - I feel like I understand a few things about it now, so thank you! :)
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
131
Lisa, you know, another thought occurred to me here. Ever notice how sometimes the harder we try, the further we get? Like trying to remember a name, or where we left something. But the further we get from trying to force it, the sooner it pops into our head or whatever is lost suddenly seems to magically turn up. That can relate to "coming joy", as though trying to make it appear, or trying to make it come to us.
Cross-posting (actually, cross-posting which also involved considerable time with my post languishing half-written on the screen while I did other things) --- yes, I do know what you mean, and yes, that certainly could fit.

It did magically turn up, albeit two months later (and also, magically, it was never a danger to anyone during that time, which is the only reason I was so worried about finding it).

In my last post I said that 58.3 came as the answer to a very specific and perfectly reasonable question, rather than to one of several really bad "questions" I'd asked. I thought that probably meant that your interpretation (close, but not quite) was the correct one.

But it's probably important to remember that all of this is out of context - the 58.3>43 reading was part of a horridly long series. It was a very early one, but Yi probably knew what was going to happen, and may have simply been trying to get me to stop. Yi may have known that even if I had successfully figured out that I lost the blade somewhere between the countertop and the wastebasket (which I did not figure out), that still would not have been enough information. It's a small, thin blade that fell onto a wicker rack. In two months, I never noticed it there, until I dislodged it by moving the rack. It was probably well camouflaged by the wicker, or possibly even stuck into a crack in the wicker (I don't know).

A hole in that theory, though, is then why not start out with 58.3? Why give me 27uc - receptacle - in the first place? It wasn't in a receptacle. It had been in the tissue, but it wasn't there anymore. It was lost on the way to the wastebasket, but it wasn't in the wastebasket (or even directly around the wastebasket). Unless 27uc really did mean, "Eat your dinner."

I have a headache :rofl:.
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
131
I see how you get this part (although probably only in hindsight - and maybe even then only if you are you, Pocossin, with your keen eye for the hexagram/trigram pictures):

☱ = soft, pliable. Double ☱ = wicker.
But what are you doing here:

Line 3 = ☵ = penetrating = knife blade.
How do you get Line 3 = ☵ ?

(Once you have Line 3 = ☵, I can see how that looks like a blade penetrating something. But where does ☵ come from for line 3? It's the water trigram, right?)
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
1
not an direct response to 58.3 but a more general experience of such questions.

I had lost my camera's cord and asked Yi where it was . Got 57.2 - "penetration under the bed" - how clear huh? But...

I had looked before asking Yi under boxes I kept under bed but in a shallow way because I was storing other kind of thing and cord was not likely to be there... I asked the help of the member in this forum what this line would mean :bag: When I return home this same night and start checking the spots would probably be, pushed hard myself to look under the bed because i was sure it wasn't there... I even though "ok, Yi that's not a correct answer but out or respect will look again, just to prove its not there :rolleyes:
Where it was ???
Under the bed :duh:

I asked only one question and I bet if i had asked clarifications would get 27, as referring to my though process, what I keep and what I reject. How more clear than the answer I got I'ld have ? ( lucky me there is a bed in yi ;) ) In other occasions re lost items , I have found that a more loose approach is helpful sometimes and by that I mean, sometimes you don't need to look for meanings but just take words that might be useful and could trigger helpful associations. It can be words, images, the trigrams, the image of hexes etc... A small brainstorming session, iow. I have noticed that this works in readings of this kind.

What I like and find them extremely intriguing-the "lost-item" readings- is that a more clear cut and concrete illustration of other more complex questions that in the core have similar goal- to find something; that brainstorming, the aspects I mentioned earlier, act as trigger and activate other 'Thoughts' - an expansion of 'perspective'

A conversation with Yi, imo, sometimes if not most times, it resemblance the pantomime games or the "Taboo" game- if you play it at your country. In pantomime there are many different ways to play it- for instance the goal is to find movie titles- so you have to break down the title and find ways to "vocalize" it... or in "Taboo" there are forbidden words that using them would be easy to find the words is asked so you need to find other ways... like the hex 39 sooo mentioned.

btw, i liked the association of the wastebasket and 27 - as junk"food/thoughts"
 

pocossin

Senior member
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
4,521
Reaction score
6
How do you get Line 3 = ☵ ?
I got it by studying the qualities of the lines. I attempted to explain it here.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?9741-My-Secret-System

Line 3 is typically about loss, injury, disappointment, danger.

It's the water trigram, right?
Not exactly. It's water in its destructive aspect -- torrent, flood, deluge, inundation. Such water penetrates like the blade of a knife, thus holes. ☵ is the ear and the pit.
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
131
sometimes you don't need to look for meanings but just take words that might be useful and could trigger helpful associations. It can be words, images, the trigrams, the image of hexes etc...
Yes :D. I have seen sometimes how just one tiny thing from a reading can be the key to it. I don't have an example right at hand, but I know what you mean. I'm not seeing it in this case, though.

Here's something else that happened that night - I knew 27 (the very first reading I got about the knife blade) can mean "jaws," right? The third reading I got was 21.4 > 27:

"Biting into dried, bony meat, gains a metal arrow.
Constancy in hardship bears fruit - good fortune."
(Hilary's book)

The other object that I'd had out on the countertop where I'd been using the knife was a manual can opener (a Swing-Away model). Between 27uc ("jaws"), and this 21.4 > 27 reading, which contained not one but TWO jaw-like or biting hexagrams, plus the line text, I thought, Aha! The blade somehow had gotten into the can opener. I got the can opener out of the drawer I'd put it in, swung its handles around, turned its lever, peered into its mechanism with a flashlight, and then completely emptied the drawer it was in to see if the knife blade had fallen out of the can opener into the drawer - nothing. I didn't find it there, and in fact it WASN'T there. The can opener had nothing to do with it.

I suppose in hindsight wicker could be seen as "dried, bony meat," but I don't think there was any way I was going to understand that. The blade falling out of the tissue onto the wicker rack was a freak occurrence, caused by me moving my arm in just the right way while carrying the tissue to the wastebasket. Unlike the wastebasket itself, and the can opener, I had no reason at all to associate the rack with my lost knife blade.

btw, i liked the association of the wastebasket and 27 - as junk"food/thoughts"
Yes, the wastebasket was definitely a clue.

I absolutely understand that it would have been impossible for Yi to tell me where the knife blade actually was. There is nothing as fitting as your "under the bed" example to describe what had happened (that I can think of). Not to mention that I did upwards of 30 readings :rolleyes:, including more I just found that I did the next day. There is just too much to pick through - I'm not expecting to solve this here. It's really too exhausting to even try, lol.

But then we got onto this 58.3 tangent, which I think is interesting by itself. And now I understand that line better :D, for which I am grateful.
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
131
I got it by studying the qualities of the lines. I attempted to explain it here.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?9741-My-Secret-System
Thank you for linking to that. And, conveniently, Line 3 as ☵ was your example there:

when reading the Yi horizontally -- that is, line 1 through the hexagrams, then line 2, and so on -- I found the trigrams there. My initial clue, I think, was the association of both line three and trigram ☵ with danger.
Clearly I don't understand your system from a brief glance, but I've seen you be successful with it - I remember one thread where you located someone's missing papers in a box - so I am intrigued. Thank you for posting about it.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
1
Here's something else that happened that night - I knew 27 (the very first reading I got about the knife blade) can mean "jaws," right? The third reading I got was 21.4 > 27:

"Biting into dried, bony meat, gains a metal arrow.
Constancy in hardship bears fruit - good fortune."
(Hilary's book)
.
dried also could refer to drying the blade and metal arrow the blade itself ... in hindsight :cool:

still 27 readings to locate the wicker rack ;) would be crash-course on lost-item readings.... post you pay-pal account and wait for enrollments. :D
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
131
dried also could refer to drying the blade and metal arrow the blade itself ... in hindsight :cool:
Oooh, that's a good thought :). That reading (the 21.4 > 27 one) was just two readings before I asked if I'd thrown it in the trash, point being I hadn't yet asked that question. Of course, I didn't ask about it because I'd picked up on any clues; it was just a possibility that occurred to me. (And then I emptied my entire wastebasket without finding the blade, lol.)
 

Liselle

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 20, 1970
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
131
still 27 readings to locate the wicker rack ;) would be crash-course on lost-item readings.... post you pay-pal account and wait for enrollments. :D
Ha ha! A course on lost items would be fantastic...particularly for me (ahem :blush:). (To take, that is - teaching such a thing would require me to have ever actually found something :rofl:.) It is fun to try, though. As Sooo said in the other thread, these can be good riddles.
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top