59.1>61- To Hold on Romantic Ideals or Not?

[marybluesky]

Half a year ago I decided to put my romantic ideals aside & enjoy upcoming opportunities for sex and unconventional relationships.

It was a period of experimentation after a long romantic era not leading to any considerable concrete result. It wasn't bad and I don't regret my decision, however I felt the lack of the warm thing we call love in the end; and my old romantic self has powerfully awakened. On the other hand, at least I had fun and learned new things during last months, which didn't happen if I kept up with the old expectations.

I asked the I Ching: "Is it good to continue my recent approach (seizing the opportunities without having romantic expectations) even if it doesn't bring me love"? and got 59.1 >61.

The answer puzzles me: does it approve of the non-romantic approach, saying that it will rescue me, or it invites me to rescue my inner truth (wish for love)?

Thank you.

 

[Freedda]

Looking at the trigrams and their meanings, with 59 you have Water/The Abyss as the lower. This trigram is often associated with risk, fear, and feeling exposed. It made me wonder, if in spite of you saying that your new approach 'wasn't bad', is it possible you feel something isn't quite right with this? Even if it's just a fear, that in putting your romantic ideals aside, you might be missing out on a deeper kind of love?

The lower trigram of 61 is Lake. One of the basic messages for this trigram is about joy, a sort of 'don't worry, be happy' approach. I think having a positive attitude can be of benefit, but I sense that Lake might be offering you something else here ....

Lake is also about doing things in different or unusual ways. So, this made me wonder, is there a different way that you could approach your love life? Like ... why don't you include both types of happiness in your relationship search: you can remain open to more light-hearted (less romantic) relationships and at the same time, you can be open to more romantic-type relationships. Why should wanting one preclude the other?

The upper trigram for both is Wind/Wood. It is about exploring, asking questions and here, perhaps most importantly it's about taking a gentle, steady, and possible long-term approach and outlook. Wood is another association and one image i have of the this is of a young plant sending out it's roots. These roots 'learn' to find their way around obstacles, and here you can learn from your relationships and the various situations - or environments - you find yourself in. And these can - if you let them - inform you and help refine your search or your vision of what you are looking for.

PS - you may have meant it in a rhetorical way, but I don't think the Yi ever approves or disapproves of our actions, though it does tell us about our current situations and can offer us advice on how to address those situations.

Best, F

 

[breakmov]

Hi, marybluesky

I see it this way:
59.1>61
Hex 59 speaks of an "old form", more limited, which undergoes a transformation to a different one, more expanded/universal, and in this sense to an "improved form".
Hex61 speaks of an inner truth, a very particular and unique truth, sensed by each of us...a mixture of honesty, investigation, consideration and feeling that resonates with the person himself.
59.1>61 speaks of the need to be very careful with this new form, more expanded/universal, so that it can also be a new form with quality,with reflected inner truth (hex61). It is as if the line is asking: "This new, more open/universal form has, at least, the same quality as the previous one? what does your inner truth say?- Be carefull!"


"line1: Rescuing with a horse`s strenght."
( Hilary translation)

I'll leave you an example, imagined, using the Hex59 image:

The Image:
The wind blows over the water: the image of dispersing. Thus the kings of old made offerings to the Lord and built temples.

Imagine that King Wen, of the Zou dynasty, had his territory all devastated with the war and there was only one great temple in his city to make offerings, sacrifices and pray to God. Something centralized and difficult to access for most of its people.
King Wen decides to make it more accessible to go to the temple, for all his people, building and spreading throughout his territory many temples, with the same quality as the main one, but smaller.
All this is done with extreme care so that, in each of the "secondary temples", the same quality is guaranteed for the religious service .King Wen made sure that all the new temples were used according to the proper rules of main temple.-His work has the quality of the line1.

Cheers,

breakmov

 

[Freedda]

I see it this way: 59.1>61 ....

Breakmov, perhaps i missed it, but it's not clear to me what advice or response you think the Yi is offering regarding Mary's question? Are you saying the Yi is recommending that she be careful and proceeding with 'extreme care'?

Thanks.

 

[rosada]

I think the I Ching is advising you to strengthen your commitment to honoring your inner truth. I'm not sure if this means you should hold out for a soul mate and a ring but I do read it as assurance that wanting a relationship to have some meaning is not asking for too much.

 

[breakmov]

Hi Freedda,

For me, line 1 of the hex59 always implies, in any case, an action where an initial situation ("more limited") evolves into a more open situation ( with the intention of improving ). This movement of evolution, always (should), absorbs inner truth.

"line1: Rescuing with a horse`s strenght."
( Hilary translation)

Rescue this new opening/expansion situation with the strenght of a horse(hex1?). How?- always with inner truth.
In the example I left, the situation shows an ideal scenario where it is easy to establish this connection.
The case of Marybluesky is a real situation full of grey areas, but still her inner truth will show if this evolution is better than the initial situation or not.

"I asked the I Ching: "Is it good to continue my recent approach (seizing the opportunities without having romantic expectations) even if it doesn't bring me love"? and got 59.1 >61. "

Cheers,


breakmov

 

[becalm]

Well according to Lise Line 1 of Hex 59 "Benefit of the force of a gelded horse. Auspicious."

Sounds less like being with men being driven by their desire for sex.....I think rosada's interpretation is spot on!!

 

[bologna_tendra]

I am no expert in I Ching but I will give some thoughts, armed with my Wilhelm translation. In 59.1 Wilhelm speaks of "misunderstandings and mutual distrust" and it seems to me this can occur in sexual relationships that lack love. Wilhelm also says "it is important that disunion should be overcome at the outset, before it has become complete" and that one should disperse the clouds before it rains. Perhaps this indicates that if you continue on the present there will be disunion (between you and your romantic self which you will be disassociated from) and there will be rain. Meanwhile hex 61 is inner truth. Is it that by realigning with your more romantic values, but armed with the knowledge you have gained through recent adventures, that you will be stepping into a new stage of your inner truth?

 

[Freedda]

Wilhelm speaks of "misunderstandings and mutual distrust" and it seems to me this can occur in sexual relationships that lack love.

.... also "it is important that disunion should be overcome at the outset, before it has become complete" ... Perhaps this indicates that if you continue on the present there will be disunion (between you and your romantic self

It seems to me that "misunderstandings and mutual distrust" can happen in all human relationships, even in - or especially in - so-called romantic relationships.

I think only Mary may know what the 'disunion' is here. But I can imagine, as an option, that disunion is overcome by allowing ourselves to honor all types of relationships, or 'unions'.

The Yi comes from of a time when many types of human unions and relationships were practiced and honored, Certainly it was not unusual for men of the ruling or wealthy classes to have multiple wives and/or mistresses, and perhaps women enjoyed the same options - or they certainly should nowadays.

According to Wilhelm's translation, line 59.1 reads 'He (or She, or They) brings help with the strength of a horse. Good fortune.' It doesn't say that this strength or this horse is necessarily of the romantic variety. In fact, if we were to get all archetypal about it, the 'strength of a horse' feels pretty darn sexual to me. So is the Yi advising that disunion can be overcome by sexual union?

 

[bologna_tendra]

It seems to me that "misunderstandings and mutual distrust" can happen in all human relationships, even in - or especially in - so-called romantic relationships.

My feeling is that "mutual distrust" is not a characteristic of a loving relationship - but what happens when love breaks down in a relationship, or else is absent from the relationship from the beginning. Misunderstandings is another matter and can happen in any relationship, but mutual distrust is different- where there is love there will always be trust.

As the first message describes the inner truth as a wish for love, perhaps 59.1 is suggesting a fostering of situations where mutuality, communication and trust can grow would be beneficial.

Reading Wilhelm's commentary on hexagram 61 it seems very much that a distinction is being made between the two types of relationships, with a preference in this situation for those that move past transitory convenience, relationships based on "what is right, on steadfastness":
"It is important to understand upon what the force of inner truth depends. This force is not identical with simple intimacy or a secret bond. Close ties may exist also among thieves; it is true that such a bond exists as a force but, since it is not invincible, it does not bring good fortune. All association on the basic of common interests holds up only to a certain point. Where the community of interest ceases, the holding together ceases also, and the closest friendship often changes into hate. Only when the bond is based on what is right, on steadfastness, will it remain so firm that it triumphs over everything."

 

[Freedda]

My feeling is that "mutual distrust" is not a characteristic of a loving relationship ....

I agree, but you seem to be drawing a line in the sand between what you're calling a 'romantic' relationship and all others - or ones that are not as romantic. I just don't see those distinctions, nor do I know where we'd draw that line. It's as if you're creating an either/or scenario, and I don't think one necessarily exists here.

You also seem to be equating 'romance' with love. But if we define a 'loving relationship' as one where we have 'mutual trust' - well, we can have that in all types of relationship, and as I said, romance does not necessarily mean or lead to trust - nor always to lasting love!

Reading Wilhelm's commentary on hexagram 61 it seems ... a distinction is being made between the two types of relationships, with a preference in this situation for those that move past transitory convenience, relationships based on "what is right, on steadfastness" .....

Here you are looking at one person's commentary about the Yi, but not what the Yi actually says, and these are two entirely different things. You're basically relying on Wilhelm's opinion, which is just one among many.

And this is what we often do: we rely on someone's commentary, which is itself only one person's opinion about what the Yi is saying. This can often serve as starting point, but at some point I think we need to discover, what do we think these hexgrams, trigrams lines, etc. mean in terms of describing someone's situation and the best was they can respond to that?

For example, Bradford Hatcher starts his commentary of line 59.1 ... "Reaching beyond our selves and our own resources is our first movement into the greater world." It says nothing about romance, nor about having to choose betweeen (only two) types of relationships. I could say it's suggesting that the first step to knowing what kind of relationship works best, is for Mary to be open to all types of relationships - to 'reach beyond' the idea of selecting just one type - and out of this she'll naturally 'winnow out' what works best: she will figure out - for herself - which type(s) of relationship(s) give her 'mutual trust' and happiness.

As to what 59 means .... the trigram images are Wind above Water. Some names / titles for 59 are 'Scattering', 'Dispersing', 'Breaking Up'. For Mary's reading the imagery and the name can imply that she consider loosening up, or 'scattering' her pre-conceived notions of which types of relationships work (and which don't), and instead that she explore these in a gentle, persistent, and patient way, and out of this exploration, she'll arrive at a solution.

But I don't think 59 implies jumping immediately to a fixed answer or solution - nor that it is selecting one kind of relationship over another.

Or at least that my 'commentary' about it.

All the best ....

 

[bologna_tendra]

You seem to be drawing a line in the sand between what you're calling a 'romantic' relationship and all others - or ones that are not as romantic.

I am indeed drawing a line - between casual sex and a loving relationship - which is the implicit (although not explicit) dichotomy posed in the original message. I have known both and there is a season perhaps for both. What is I Ching hinting about the way to go here?

Re. the dispersion of hex 59 Wilhelm writes "here the subject is the dispersing and dissolving of divisive egotism". What is the experience that dissolves one in the world - casual sex, or love? I would say it's the love, as love breaks down narcissism and ego. Casual sex - not so much.

In the text of the judgement itself, it reads "it furthers one to cross the great water". It is worth meditating on what constitutes crossing the great water, and what does not!

 

[Freedda]

I am indeed drawing a line - between casual sex and a loving relationship - which is the implicit (although not explicit) dichotomy posed in the original message.

Re. the dispersion of hex 59 Wilhelm writes "here the subject is the dispersing and dissolving of divisive egotism". What is the experience that dissolves one in the world - casual sex, or love?

In my interpretation, the Yi's advice is that Mary should explore these different relationships, and that out of this exploration, she can decide what works best for her. However, I don't think the Yi is making a 'decision' for her - or telling her that one kind of relationship is better than another. I think the Yi - as it often does - is leaving Mary's decision-making abilities, and her integrity and honesty intact.

Here Wilhelm is saying what he thinks dispersing is - the "dissolving of divisive egotism", but again, those are his words, and not what the Yi is saying. And as to what 'dissolves one in the world' (again, not at all based on the Yi's words, nor a subject of Mary's query), that is a totally personal decision - e.g. someone might decide that being celibate is what works for them, or that having a committed, trusting relationship with a man and a woman is what works best, etc.

(When I was much younger I knew a 'trio' (or were they a 'truple'?) - two men and a woman - who were in a loving, committed, trusting relation with each other - and when they went to someone's home, they'd always knock three times on the door! And perhaps this is what the Yi is suggesting for Mary!)

Also, if we were to take these commentaries to heart, what you are reading into this (based on what Wilhelm is saying) is that Mary has a divisive ego that needs dissolving! I never heard her say that, and that's not what she asked about, and I am not at all qualified to make that diagnosis - and quite frankly I don't think you are either.

All the best ....

 

[marybluesky]

UPDATE:

The ideals don't exist in my mind anymore, so I guess adapting the non-romantic approach has been the right thing to do.