61 & 62

[cal val]

Hi there...

Well I'm learning. I'm getting this slowly but surely. Lately I've been contemplating 61 & 62.

If 61 is about inner truth and "living the truth," is 62, with it's exaggerations, kind of like "living the lie"... so to speak... sort of... *grin*?

Of course, that's a very simplistic, basic observation, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this pair.

THANKS!

Love,

Val

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Val,

you wrote:
>
> If 61 is about inner truth and "living the truth," is 62,
> with it's exaggerations, kind of like "living the lie"... so
> to speak... sort of... *grin*?
>

62 covers the need to maintain the integrity of the collective through the exaggeration of traditions. Thus a focus on acting etc. The traditions act as constraints, reflecting a property of mountain in the bottom position, self-constraint, blocking, stopping; in human emotions this maps to issues of sadness, grief etc and so loss of something (stop = death). This differs from mountain in the TOP position where the reactiveness of the bottom is made proactive, is doubled, where the use the 'stopping', the self-constraint, is turned into a focus on being discerning, selective, quality-control.

(Note that there is also a tie here to mountain as being a 'gate keeper', reflecting the shift in quality etc as you pass through that gate. By extension we move into 'after-life' etc which is of interest in that, when we map-in the MBTI/Keirsey persona typology systems to the I Ching the persona type of Seers, Authors, Prophets slots into a part of the mountain realm and in general the focus is on Mentors, aides/guides in development etc (and so association to a sense of discernment))

Thunder in the top position represents the concept of awareness (as compared to its bottom position of representing enlightenment - enlightenment doubled means not only the moment of enlightenment but also the awareness of what it means etc, etc. Thus with the 'shock', the 'surprise' comes awareness)

The 'problem' with traditions is that being 'traditions' their original purpose is often lost (is 'dead') but the original quality is kept alive. This is like the setting-up of some government body to investigate X and then, once the investigation is over, rather than close-down the body it stays around sucking up funds but doing nothing! Generations pass and this problem becomes noticable but is met with statements as "but there has always been that department..."

A more personal example would be to the use of prayer, where in its 'true' form it acts to change mental states (as in a mantra etc) but in the Institution of Religion that is not taught, prayer is something you 'do' as part of the worship process, it becomes 'traditional' to open the book of Common Prayer (or equivalent) and read a prayer. What has become lost is the purpose of that act, not the prayer itself but what it elicits mentally, it is an aid to change mental states.

You could have a 'prayer' of nothing but expletives but said 'properly' will elicit a change in mental states. The tradition fails to make the connection to the 'mind', it is all mindless ritual but the forming of a 'prayer' group etc acts to integrate overall and so possibly force a collective to stay together way past its use-by/best-before date - and so 'live a lie' ;-) The POSITIVE aspect is setting a rigid core - the tradition - to ground.

When placed in binary sequence ordering, 62 shares a common theme with 56 where the focus is on loyalty regardless of where you are. 62 focuses on the integration bias (yin top line - integrate through use of traditions) whereas 56 focuses on the differentiation bias (yang top line - differentiate one's belief from others). Note that WITHIN the octet of mountain-based hexagrams, 62 is an exaggeration of 53 (maturing, gradual development). As such 62 can be interpreted as a state of being 'over-mature' and so the 'over acting' of traditions etc to keep it all going ;-)

For more relationships of 62 see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x001100.html

In the binary sequence 61 shares space with hexagram 60 where the latter reflects imposition of standards. 61 reflects 'softeness' within the hard outer coating. 60 is integrating, 61 differentiating, a preparedness to 'yield', to 'soften' behind the 'mask', to make an exception, to be flexible and as such more open to put 'truth' ahead of a standard/tradition etc., to go and fight an injustice (as a judge fights for the life of someone he believes is innocent or too harshly treated by the law when formally found guilty based on the legal 'standards' of the times etc)

This concept of an exception links us to the exaggerated form of 61 within the group of lake-based hexagrams - hexagram 54. 54 reflects 'unusual' circumstances, exceptions, but in an exaggerted form as in 'young maiden marrying old man' - overall the focus is on immaturity, too quick development and the consequences of, and so 54 'toned down' a bit is reflected in 61 ;-)

For more relationships of 61 see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x110011.html

Chris.

 

[hilary]

Alternative view...

61 aligns inner and outer self, holding to one truth or one vibration resonating through the centre. (That character for 'centre' could well be a drum on a pole.) So at 61, you know the message.

62 can be 'small overstepping' or 'stepping across, in a small way'. That doesn't mean the transition is a minor one, but that you are stepping towards the world of small details, and have to observe everything with care bordering on obsessiveness. If 61 knows the message, 62 has the awkward task of carrying it over the boundary.

It's hard to imagine two approaches more different than mine and Chris's. Yet here we both are talking about gates, and then I see a connection of 62 to 56. 56 has more to do with carrying your personal mission or mandate out into strange territories (where it will probably not be greatly appreciated); 62 perhaps carries a universal truth back in to society. Hm - looking back at Chris's post, perhaps this has been said.

This reminds me of the basic myth of the hero who goes out on his (usually his) quest, finally discovers what he's searching for, and then has to carry the message back to his ordinary world. Frustration and farce often ensue.

Bradford gives this pair as an example somewhere in his book:
?Take, for example, the Opposite pair of 61, Zhong Fu, The Truth Within and 62, Xiao Guo, Smallness in Excess. The first concerns how big and important we feel when we are contained inside of ourselves, the second concerns how small and insignificant we feel when we are alone in the outer world. This calls to mind a dichotomy in a Leonard Cohen song: ?We are so small between the stars, So large against the sky....? ?

 

[pedro]

Interesting thoughts. I think it can also be seen as exagerations of trigrams fire and water. One has a gentle inside that perhaps its what makes it so tough on the outside; the other has a strong inside, that allows it to resist (through addaptation, water takes attention to details) its apparent exterior fragility

 

[chrislofting]

Hilary,

you wrote:
>

>
> It's hard to imagine two approaches more different than mine
> and Chris's. Yet here we both are talking about gates, and
> then I see a connection of 62 to 56. 56 has more to do with
> carrying your personal mission or mandate out into strange
> territories (where it will probably not be greatly
> appreciated); 62 perhaps carries a universal truth back in
> to society. Hm - looking back at Chris's post, perhaps this
> has been said. [

]
>

There are billions of views for these hexagrams, one for each individual on the planet and if we include multiple personality 'disorder' (note the quotes ;-)) then one view for each individual consciousness.

However these differences all reflect an unconscious sameness that influences the prose of the individual. THAT sameness stems from our species-nature.

The trigram we associate in the I Ching with mountain reflects a more generic state, that of static, invarient, relationships where there is a focus on sharing space with another/others but maintaining one's sense of individuality and as such the sharing is conditional as compared to unconditional of the trigram of earth that reflects a BLEND, a WHOLE, focus.

At the same time, with mountain (and lake) we are not a PART (as in a removable object) we are tied - the focus is therefore on a BOND. The complement to mountain is Lake and it too reflects (!) a focus on BONDING. The differences are with bonding 'inside' (mountain) vs bonding 'outside' (lake).

At this level of analysis we are even pre-emotions. The ONLY focus is on an invarient relationship that acts to generate form, as in mathematics we use PI and e etc. This focus on 'invarient relationship' means the sense of connection is 'eternal', there is no time factor involved. From this very generic notion emerges concepts of strong relationships and issues concerning those relationships re their birth, death, sadness, joy, 'refinement', quality etc. etc.

The trigrams 'reduce' to species-nature qualities derived from basic acts of differentiation and integration, acts hard-coded into our species-nature:

BLEND - WHOLENESS - heaven, earth
BOND - RELATEDNESS (static, share space) - lake, mountain
BOUND - PARTNESS - fire, water
BIND - RELATEDNESS (dynamic, share time) thunder, wind

The differences reflected in the trigrams are resolved through adding a qualifier to the four universal categories. That qualifier is in the form of a label, determined by context, that is a synonym for 'differentiate/integrate' - and so we have the eight really generic concepts of:

wholeness through differentiation
wholeness through integration
partness through differentiation
partness through integration
relatedness (static) through differentiation
relatedness (static) through integration
relatedness (dynamic) through differentiation
relatedness (dynamic) through integration


We can use synonyms such as expand/contract, male/female, positive/negative etc etc to give us details and so *biased LOCAL* interpretations.

Notice your general comment in 61 about 'align inner and outer self holding to the one truth' where this phrase reflects the sense of sharing space, the blend of the 'one truth' but retaining identity as in 'inner' vs 'outer'. The 61 focus is on BINDING in a context of BONDING, more so contractive binding in a context of expansive bonding. 62 is expansive binding in a context of contractive bonding.

These generic terms get 'refined' as we move from the generic closer to the specific qualities of the trigrams of the I Ching where expansive bonding becomes 'lake' and we further differentiate into positions of the trigram in a hexagram with, for lake, a lower position of self-reflection and an upper position of self-reflection doubled - intensity in expression. (self-reflection is dual in that it means (a) analysis of self and (b) promotion of self etc move into the analogies to mirrors, surface of lakes etc and the bond focus, the sense of 'seeing oneself in another' comes out - we bond with our images ;-))

The upper position of 61 reflects the sharing of space IN TIME and as such an ability to 'break' the bond. This reflects the use of the term 'bind' in that it is easy to unbind, not so easy to unbond, some residue can get left behind, be it a fertilised egg or a sense of loss of someone of value ;-)

The underlying REALLY generic 'vibe' of sharing space and sharing time (bond and bind) are reflected in all three personal interpretations, yours, mine, and Bradford. The WORDS we use to 'refine' these general terms enough to communicate them and elicit 'resonance' are MANY, WHAT they elicit is 'one' - determined by the core, hard-coded qualities we all share as species-members.

The MAIN differences in the pairs of trigrams etc is in the differences in precision of differentiating (a unit) vs integrating (no less than a pair). Thus when we incorporate five-phase associations so mountain reflects more the act of filtration, of conditional quality control, a function of the phase of EARTH, whereas lake reflects more the act of cooperative exchange, a function of METAL. We still note the underlying sense of BONDING despite the emerging differences as we add more labels etc to 'flesh-out' meanings for our over-labelling consciousness! ;-)

IOW you may consider our approaches 'different' but only in expression ;-) The 'species I Ching' is too general to be useful but it serves as a guide to fleshing-out the 'meaning' of trigrams/hexagrams/dodecagrams and so reducing some of the frustration that comes when trying to translate feelings into words.

From that base level, derived through the use of recursion, comes all of the relationships that are properties of the method and as such 'built-in' to any interpretation of the I Ching (e.g. 62,56 pairing, 62,53 pairing, 61,62 pairing etc etc etc)

Understanding the properties and methods of the underlying relationships aids in expression and so precision in understanding what is going on and that is what the IDM material focuses upon, the generic from which we can all create our own particular I Chings ;-)

Chris.

 

[martin]

Chris, what is generic?
Can your method explain the cooking pot with ears that appears in hexagram 50, the beast with horns in 34, the jaws in 27 and so on?
Or what Bradford said about 60 and 61?

 

[martin]

Oops, 61 and 62 ...

 

[martin]

I ask this question because the link between a hexagram and it's meaning is often not very clear.
The writers of the I Ching apparently used different systems to 'derive' meaning and switched between them in a rather unsystematic way .
Part of what they 'derived' has come down to us and we see it (or a more abstract version of it, moving somewhat away from the metaphors, the cultural bias, and so on) now as essential.
I seems unlikely that a systematic approach can bring out these meanings in a consistent way, considering that the process of generating them has been so 'fluid'.

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Martin,

you wrote:
>
> Chris, what is generic?

general. lacking high precision in the form of a particular label. e.g. 'Prozac' is particular, it is a label for a combination of chemicals that reflect the 'generic' drug - IOW there is some degree of customisation, specialisation, of the drug that Prozac reflects as a copyrightable 'thing' and so protected under law (or claimable as a distinct expression of a collective - as in the 'Chinese-ness' of the I Ching)

> Can your method explain the cooking pot with ears that
> appears in hexagram 50, the beast with horns in 34, the jaws
> in 27 and so on?
> Or what Bradford said about 60 and 61?
>

No need. These are local expressions, local forms of reference, local analogies to aid in describing the general to that local context. The IDM focus, and so the ICPlus focus, is on identifying the unconscious general influences on our sense of meaning etc., AS A SPECIES. Thus the focus in hexagram 50 on a context of cultivation (wind trigram) within which is operating the concept of guidance, direction-setting, ideology setting ('fire' trigram) reflects as a whole a 'vibe' of the 'cooking' of the raw to become the 'refined' ready for distribution. To refine that 'vibe' means reference to, analogies to, metaphors of, issues of cooking, re-producing etc and so of cultivating and becoming 'influential'.

The generic properties of hexagram 27 reflect a focus that is describable by analogy to the concept of hungering etc, a strong need to satisfy both mental and physical hunger, a seeking of nourishment.

The base trigram of enlightement, combined with the top trigram of discernment reflects being discerning about injesting the 'new'. The top trigram in five-phase reflects conditional filtering, the bottom trigram reflects production, in particular of something 'new'. Taken 'as a whole', this overall 'vibe' in being wary of taking-in the 'new', combined with the 'look' of the image allows for any associations to be made re acts of taking things in, and that includes the actions of the Jaws in opening to take in and closing to block (where discernment links to the 'blocking' concept of mountain) - the overall warning is on not taking in the 'new' blindly - to be wary.

See my list of associations to the trigrams I recently sent to val in the context of literal and metaphoric 'death' in relationships. The associations are all general but there is enough there to refine those general to 'fit' a local context, be it your own rendition of the I Ching or some collective version etc. - and so get 'poetic' ;-)

From these generic descriptions come the more particular that fit the local context. Understanding these generic concepts allows one to customise the IC to ANY context, ANY time. It is not a 'chinese' document as such, more so the specialisation of the generalisation that is the template identified in IDM that we use to derive meaning as species-members, not 'chinese' or 'english' or 'australian' or 'peruvian' etc etc

IOW the I Ching is to the IDM template what Prozac is to the generic drug - a formal labelling incorporating 'propriatory' elements that make it 'local'. Thus the differences I make between a 10th century BC perspective on the I Ching, the more traditional, tightly integrated with Chinese culture etc, and the 21st century AD perspective where, through the research of the species into our nature so we have uncovered the roots of what we call the 'I Ching' and in doing so bring out aspects of the traditional not commonly known due to the lack of focus on the METHODOLOGY that led to the development of the I Ching - recursion.

The IDM perspective is GENERAL and being general cannot REPLACE anything but can show patterns that will be within any particular, any specialisations, and so refine understanding of that specialisation and ground it in our species-nature ;-)

Thus, from the perspectives of the originators of the IC, there is no observed 'systematic' approach in that the source of meaning is unconscious and it is localised through consciousness. The neurosciences have led to us gaining an understanding of the unconscious processes such that we can 'refine' our analogies, metaphors even further, seperate the chaff from the wheat ;-)

As such,with the development of the neuron, the IC was 'inevitable' due to the properties and methods of our species and the method it uses to process information generally - the overall properties just needed specialisation and that happened in China.

We can identify the same *basics* influencing Western perspectives in Astrology and the Tarot etc etc - see my diagrams in the Logic of the Esoteric essay -

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/esoter.html

Chris.

 

[bradford_h]

Hello Martin-
I want say what a delight it is to hear someone else speak of the Yi's authors as human beings. And that they may have had a number of unrelated methods and algorithms for squeezing meanings from the diagrams.
As you may know I've taken a lot of care to try and scope out some of this array of tools, and try to understand which method developed in which dynasty. And I've yet to see a single overriding principle used in the Yi's creation (although the Xian Tian is a comprehensive principle in anachronistic retrospect).
It seems that only a handful of specialists actually recognize that they are perceiving one part of the elephant as their main area of interest (we are fortunate to count a few of these on this list). Most everyone else thinks that their little piece holds the key to it all, and because of that they get themselves locked up in boxes.

b