62 and bad luck

[meng]

....I see the good causes bad and bad causes good irony in all that... but this, to me, is what 62 is about:

good and bad luck are relative, but when you sit right in one of them, it doesn't feel that way.

I started this thread stating I'm an optimist, and that applies to every hexagram, including 62. But 62, I do believe, presents an adverse or countervailing condition. Certainly nothing in my latest go-round with 62 leads me to believe otherwise. No matter what creative good comes out of it, such as this thread, I would not intentionally choose to repeat the lesson this way.

 

[charly]

Charly and Brad, appreciate your interesting points and stories. Have to say, though, not much seems to be connecting with the specifics of 1) bad luck (other than bad luck isn't really bad luck, it's a matter of perspective, etc.) or 2) meeting misfortune with respect.

Bruce:

I'm affraid of not having made understand myself. LUCK or BAD LUCK are to a some extent BUILT BY OURSELVES. We are allowed to take some licences, some LITTLE TRANSGRESSION (LiSe), some shorter pass to our goals.

Speaking of 62.5, in the hurry, I commit a mistake, misreading the tradicional character 雲 yun2 = cloud, a standard reading would be:

DENSE CLOUDS WITHOUT RAIN
clouds pregnated with omens of storm
still not fulfilled

FROM OUR WESTERN NEIGHBORHOODS
Like menaces of our Wild West,
pemanent danger for the Chinese Empire
​

密mi4: secret / confidential // thick / dense /
雲yun2: cloud /
不bu4: not / no /
雨yu3: rain /

But see the first clause, there is a little riddle: the character 雲yun2 CLOUD has two components, upper 雨yu3, RAIN and lower 云yun2, that in classical texts means CLOUD but also TO SAY / SAY.

雲不雨 yun2 bu4 yu3 means that if we take the character yun2 withou the upper component, remains the LOW component CLOUDS / SAYING (or even TEACHING)

WE can choose between LOW CLOUDS or LOW TEACHINGS, but see the character 云yun2:

​

From: Chineseetymology.org
A hanging ball or a loop. The hidden message says:

CONFIDENTIAL:
Have GUTS like OUR WESTERN NEIGHBORS
Be brave, have courage, behave like a barbarian (or like an indian).

or also:
CONFIDENTIAL:
GUTS arrive FROM OUR WESTERN NEIGHBORS
Say, the dangerous neighbors will become allies, sometimes it passed in the chinese history.

​

A hidden exhortation to the REVOLT, to the TRANSGRESSION.

Like almost all popular exhortations, it makes use of obscene concepts.

Trying with SCORPIONS you're allowed to take some LITTLE ADVANTAGE.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... it's all about powers and forces bigger then us, also when the weak in the village take magic and wictchcraft as the only tool at hand for them: they have to deal with bigger forces higher in the picking-order...

Hi, Bert:

Maybe not only for the JunZi the YI speaks. Do you think that sometimes ther YI has some notes of rebellion? Sometimes does the YI take the point of view of the WEAK PEOPLE?

Is it sometimes the voice of witches and diviners accustomed to try with the most important people?

Love the term you used for hierarchy

From: http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/gco/lowres/gcon251l.jpg
​

Yours,

Charly

 

[meng]

My personal 62 shall read:

the scorpion didn't survive billions of years by flying

the scorpion brings the message, it is well to remain below.


...tell me the Dao has no humor

 

[charly]

My personal 62 shall read:
the scorpion didn't survive billions of years by flying
the scorpion brings the message, it is well to remain below.
...tell me the Dao has no humor

Of couse, Bruce:

Not only SCORPIONS survive in the LOW, even little SNAILS enjoy life without being FLYING BIRDS.

蝸 = Snails, see the similarity with 過, there are many in the Taiwanese «Snail Information Web»

Snails reported in the source:

• Pomacea canaliculata (Lamarck) 福壽螺
• Vaginulus alte Ferussac, 1821皺足蛞蝓
• Achatina fulica Bowdich, 1822 非洲大蝸牛
• Camaena bacca (Pfeiffer, 1865) 阿猴蝸牛
• Camaena batanica pancala (Schmacker & Bottger, 1891) 班卡拉蝸牛
• Petalochlamys formosana (Schmacker & Böttger, 1891) 台灣鱉甲蝸牛
• Parmarion martensi Simroth,

1893 馬氏鱉甲蛞蝓

From: http://web.nchu.edu.tw/~htshih/worm/snail/snail.htm

The YI speaks even for SNAILS, say people that live in the low. (1)

Yours,

Charly

________________________
(1) Already the Poet said: «Go Lower... that there is a Garden»

 

[jilt]

Hi, Bert:

Maybe not only for the JunZi the YI speaks. Do you think that sometimes ther YI has some notes of rebellion? Sometimes does the YI take the point of view of the WEAK PEOPLE?

Is it sometimes the voice of witches and diviners accustomed to try with the most important people?

Charly

Dear Charly,

62 is one of the least rebellious signs, rebellion would be totally against the character of time. for me 62 gives a feeling of melancholy, perhaps mourning. Something like: I have my inner thruths, but I can do nothing with it with all those structures around -it is not like 36, there the light is hurt, here you cannot do anything with it, exept, building trust, confidence and accepting how things are.

Perhaps the yi considers everything against dao, love and life a kind of rebellion? In that sense and from that perspective the yi can be very subversive for ruling powers.

 

[hilary]

(Just voted this thread some gold stars... wishing heartily I had time for more. Thank you, everyone.)

 

[jilt]

thanks Hilary, you make us all .

I just digged up Greg Whincup's translation and found hex 49, about rebellion:

It is time to make a change. He declares his rebellion and people flock to his side. The regrets that disappear are those he felt at accepting the rule of an inferior or unjust ruler.

 

[charly]

... 62 is one of the least rebellious signs, rebellion would be totally against the character of time. for me 62 gives a feeling of melancholy, perhaps mourning...
Perhaps the yi considers everything against dao, love and life a kind of rebellion? In that sense and from that perspective the yi can be very subversive for ruling powers.

Dear Bert:

I also had a sense of melancholy seeing all the bad omens that appear in H.62 lines. But it happened time ago that I saw sequences with diferent bizarre readings, even disreputable words and concepts.

Then I thinked, here there are maybe voices form the lower strata of the old chinese society or at least from rebels.

Some sequences in favor of the barbarians, permanent enemies of the chineses, in favor of local rulers or against kings and central court:

62.3: 弗過防之。從或戕之。凶。
防fang2 has as a component the character used for barbarian neighbors, and sounds the same, with this sort of maffious advice:
​

DO NOT TRESPASS FANG'S lines.
SICARIES MAYBE WILL HURT THOSE who do it. OMINOUS.
​

62.5: 密雲不雨。自我西郊。公弋取彼在穴。
The first clause is controversial but the second is clear:​

... FROM OUR WESTERN NEIGHBORS.
​

also about the stormy people fron the west frontier.

In the third clause there are some words with strange sense:
​

公 gong1: local noble/ Duke // public / common // male → macho
弋 yi4: to shoot / another word also meaning to shoot means → to shoot, say ...
取 qu3: to catch / to fetch // take the ear of a dead piece of hunt or an enemy // take a woman by force / to marry a woman → to f_ck
彼 bi3: that / those // sounds like bi = vulva, or something worse
在 zai4: at / in /
穴 xue2: hole / cave / → no comments

​

The DUKE (the Macho)
WILL SHOOT and CATCH
C_NTS (disreputable persons)
IN a HOLE !​

Not yet an advice but rude menace. Complement of 62.2 or 62.4:

62.2 不及其君。遇其臣。无咎。
Kings are inaccesable, meet whit the Minister, the brow nose. No bad.

62.4: ... 往厲必戒...

往 wang3: to go / towards / it sounds like wang = KING, it has the component LIDER
厲 li4: severe / cruel /
必 bi4: must / will / necessarily /
戒 jie4: warn against /​

KINGS are CRUEL you (or we) MUST BE WARNED​

I would say «Perhaps PEOPLE considers everything IN FAVOR OF dao, love and life a kind of rebellion!» ... Very «subversive for ruling powers» INDEED.


All the best,

Charly

P.D.: I go to search some quotes from Freeman Crouch. Ch.

...

 

[charly]

...
GUO4: to pass, to pass by, cross over, sign of past or perfect tense, beyond the ordinary or proper limit, transgress, excess, fault, to blame.

[FONT=&quot]君子以行過乎恭[/FONT]
The noble one exceeds in respect in actions
Word by word: Junzi use move exceed at respect.
...

Lise:

What do you think about this alternative?

君子以行過乎恭

君子 jūnzi nobleman / person of noble character / gentleman /
以 yǐ to use / according to / so as to / in order to / by / with / because
行 xíng to walk / to go / to do / to perform /
行 xìng behavior / conduct
過 guò to cross / to go over / to celebrate / excessive / too- / mistake /
乎 hū final particle expressing question or doubt, similar to 嗎
恭 gōng respectful
​

Do GENTLEMEN USE TO DO MISTAKES?
Does Noble-Person use to behave wrongly?,

RESPECTFULLY!
without bad intention!.

​

Although I begin translating the Da Xiang, now I almost don't understand it.

I suspect that as a confucian text must be read with confucian concepts.


Yours,


Charly.

 

[jilt]

Dear Charly,


Do GENTLEMEN USE TO DO MISTAKES?
Does Noble-Person use to behave wrongly?,

RESPECTFULLY!
without bad intention!.


-- that might be the case, indeed. I can imagine the rebeliious feelings in 62. You have some inner truths, you think you can fly with it, and then you see that there are many who share the same inner truths, that it is even part of a status-quo. So, you have to conduct yourself and suppress the rebellious feelings, you only can fly if society allows you to. If that doesn't give a melancholic feeling. But you know it, its all for the greater good......, no bad intentions?

 

[charly]

... I can imagine the rebeliious feelings in 62. You have some inner truths, you think you can fly with it, and then you see that there are many who share the same inner truths, that it is even part of a status-quo. So, you have to conduct yourself and suppress the rebellious feelings, you only can fly if society allows you to. If that doesn't give a melancholic feeling. But you know it, its all for the greater good......, no bad intentions?

Dear Bert:

One of the things that give a sense of melancholy in H.62 is the pitiful loss of the axe. Some authors think that the axe is a weapon that has the traveller for his own defense or for camping, anothers think that the axe is money tailed with the shape of an axe, used during Zhou times.

I believe that the axe goes here in metaphoric sense, say POWER, phisical power, political or military power:

​

The punitive use of birch is ancient. The fasces (Latin, literally ‘fastened bundles of stout sticks’) had ceremonial importance among Roman magistrates where it was carried before them in processions as a symbol of their power over limb and life.

From Birching and Fascism, by Bill Casselman
at: http://www.billcasselman.com/wording_room/birch.htm

I always think that the JunZi were pretty fascists, althoug maybe without bad intentions.

But they are not the only ones than can commit mistakes, all us can do it and all us use to do it.

Another alternative coulde be:
(always recognizing the character 乎 hū as a final particle expressing question or doubt)

GENTLEMEN USE TO BEHAVE EXCESSIVELY -IS THE WORD?- RESPECTFUL.
Noble-Person use to behave maybe excessively respectful.
Little-Prince use to go beyond respect. Isn't it?
​

I remember that Freeman Crouch said that the LITTLE was the son of the Martial King Wu Wang. Maybe Little-Prince is a good translation for JunZi applied mainly for male people. While REN is not gender sensitive, ZI means always male people, I belive.

That's why I feel that the Da Xiang speaks mainly of men and for men while the ZhouYi also speaks of women and for everybody.

Nobody's perfect.

Yours,

Charly

 

[Trojina]

As a late thought, and this may have already been said, I've taken 62 as 'keep it small' as advice re a reaction. Keep the reaction small, which in this case would be not calling ambulance

 

[meng]

As a late thought, and this may have already been said, I've taken 62 as 'keep it small' as advice re a reaction. Keep the reaction small, which in this case would be not calling ambulance

This was my original interpretation, also Wf's interpretation. It still applies, but to me, at least, there's deeper dimension to the hexagram that I'd previously sensed, but had never managed to uncover until this incident.

Still, the crazy irony for me was that "the reaction" - that is to say my body's involuntary reaction - was not small at all, unless you consider extreme pain of hands and fingers, paralysis of both arms, and swelling tongue and throat to be small reactions. That's what led me to probe deeper into 62. The usual 'keep it small' wasn't enough to satisfy me, and it just didn't make sense by itself. Especially not when receiving it 3 out of 4 times for the single incident.

 

[bamboo]

This was my original interpretation,

Still, the crazy irony for me was that "the reaction" - that is to say my body's involuntary reaction - was not small at all, unless you consider extreme pain of hands and fingers, paralysis of both arms, and swelling tongue and throat to be small reactions. That's what led me to probe deeper into 62. The usual 'keep it small' wasn't enough to satisfy me, and it just didn't make sense by itself. Especially not when receiving it 3 out of 4 times for the single incident.

I am amazed and even alarmed that you did not go to the hospital. the image of you dealing with this the way you did...quietly, sort of like an observer, not reacting wildly... is a very 62ish image.......it brings an image to mind of an old indian chief, calling on the powers of earth, staying low to the ground (the physical), maybe rubbing clay on his wounds, and lowly listening for inner guidance...very shaman-like.

 

[meng]

Bamboo, that was very much the spirit of the experience. Thanks for understanding. In reasonable retrospect, I should have gone in or called 911, yet something in me also felt it was an initiation right of some kind. You just reminded me, I smudged my arms and hands thoroughly in white sage.

I won't say that all the mystery has gone out of this hexagram for me. My gut has never been satisfied with the "small" aspect by itself. There was always also a sense of something great in it, as well. If it was all only small, there would be no reason for the flying bird to stay low. Something great made the small a lot smaller.

Even this first sentence from LiSe's commentary:

The things you do are usually irreversible. So be careful.

That doesn't sound small.

In a nutshell, what I learned from this experience with 62 is more respect.

 

[Sparhawk]

Bamboo, that was very much the spirit of the experience. Thanks for understanding. In reasonable retrospect, I should have gone in or called 911, yet something in me also felt it was an initiation right of some kind. You just reminded me, I smudged my arms and hands thoroughly in white sage.

Now that you put it that way, with all those 62's popping about, and from that perspective, how's that "bad luck"?

 

[meng]

Now that you put it that way, with all those 62's popping about, and from that perspective, how's that "bad luck"?

Well, I still consider the incident as bad luck, no matter what good I made from it. It's hard to completely eliminate the run of 62 readings from that. That doesn't mean I don't honor nature, or that I, in any way, blame her or am angry with her, or her scorpions. I was, as they say, in the wrong place at the wrong time. It had nothing personal to do with me.

Now, what might make good conversation is this: What reading might the two scorpions have gotten, before they decided to climb up under my bedsheets? Remember, both died under the foot of a human they stumbled upon. 62? and wouldn't you call that their bad luck?

 

[my_key]

Well, I still consider the incident as bad luck, no matter what good I made from it. It's hard to completely eliminate the run of 62 readings from that. That doesn't mean I don't honor nature, or that I, in any way, blame her or am angry with her, or her scorpions. I was, as they say, in the wrong place at the wrong time. It had nothing personal to do with me.

Now, what might make good conversation is this: What reading might the two scorpions have gotten, before they decided to climb up under my bedsheets? Remember, both died under the foot of a human they stumbled upon. 62? and wouldn't you call that their bad luck?

Hi Meng
This really is an interesting thread that you started on 62, especially it's links to shamanism. initiations and spiritual transitions. Just a few thoughts to add to the pot.
The picture Bamboo conjured up

it brings an image to mind of an old indian chief, calling on the powers of earth, staying low to the ground (the physical), maybe rubbing clay on his wounds, and lowly listening for inner guidance...very shaman-like.

seems very apt and appropriate.

One thing about this hexagram that sticks in my mind is "The flying bird brings the omens as it leaves." From you last post am I correct in assuming that you are now thinking that the episode ended with the killing of the scorpions ?

Maybe what is still happening now to you is all part of sitting there rubbing the clay onto the wounds.
Perhaps looking for inspiration in the old symbols - Karcher defines the old character for Traverse as showing "3 footprints, the sign for stop and a dwelling with a mouth inside. Outside it, a hand makes an offering to the spirit."

So that's one footprint for each of the scorpions - but that still leaves one unaccounted for

Mike

 

[meng]

Mike, it was more like the party hadn't even started yet (lol) when I killed the scorpions. That was still before any effects set in, and having been stung twice before by them, I didn't anticipate the reactions. I was merely doing housekeeping, with no small amount of agitation from the rude waking. I fully expected to go back to bed and sleep, only a little worse for the wear.

Interesting point about the flying bird leaving. Will look into that more.

Oh, and though not using clay, I'm still using Caladryl lotion to relieve the itch.

 

[meng]

Bradford uses the word "bequeaths" instead of leaves, which to me reads as a story or myth, passed down to the recipient. Like saying, learn a lesson from the flying bird's own beak.

edit for this, also from Brad's translation..

"If not adapted to heights, adapt to below."

This is very useful, because it discriminates the very nature of the individual in question. If it's ones nature to jump up and call 911, then that action would be suitable. But if you are not adapted to that manner of dealing with things, then it is better to remain below. Very useful perspective.

 

[Sparhawk]

Well, I still consider the incident as bad luck, no matter what good I made from it. It's hard to completely eliminate the run of 62 readings from that.

The 62's came after... Bad luck was the stinging by the scorpions...

Oh my, it just occurred to me the image of you grabbing a bundle of yarrow (no coins around...), as the pain and paralysis of the hands sat in, and dividing it eighteen times for each time the 62 came up and each time becoming more difficult... That sounds like a scene from a bad Hong Kong "B Movie" (Ahem, in retrospect and now that we are in the calamine phase of the ordeal, I mean... )

Remember, both died under the foot of a human they stumbled upon. 62? and wouldn't you call that their bad luck?

Most likely they were scratching their head with the stingers at getting 23>18. Only later, as their souls watched you scrapping their remains from your soles, they had their "Aha!" moment...

 

[meng]

The 62's came after... Bad luck was the stinging by the scorpions...

It was the after effect that was the bad luck, LOL. But your point makes me think,

Oh my, it just occurred to me the image of you grabbing a bundle of yarrow (no coins around...), as the pain and paralysis of the hands sat in, and dividing it eighteen times for each time the 62 came up and each time becoming more difficult... That sounds like a scene from a bad Hong Kong "B Movie" (Ahem, in retrospect and now that we are in the calamine phase of the ordeal, I mean... )

Man, I was SO grateful for Hilary's "click 'n read". Especially the second time, cuz my arms felt like giant lobster claws.

Killing them was sad, but I wasn't ready to go chasing after them. I apologized to them and to all house critters I kill, like the annual winged ant invasion after the first big summer rain. I do release some though. When the front door opens in summer, small pyramid moths flock inside. I believe that spiders, scorpions and camel spiders "hear" them, possibly in distress, and so find ways inside to hunt them. To me it's better than living in a hermetically sealed bubble; and I am the real guest here. I worry more for my dog outside with rattlesnakes. But ya know the cities have their own dangerous creatures too. If I had to face a Mojave greenback or a soulless cretin of the human sort, I'd choose the rattler every time.

 

[bamboo]

Man, I was SO grateful for Hilary's "click 'n read". Especially the second time, cuz my arms felt like giant lobster claws.

LOL.only an ichinger would understand

 

[my_key]

The 62's came after... Bad luck was the stinging by the scorpions...

Most likely they were scratching their head with the stingers at getting 23>18. Only later, as their souls watched you scrapping their remains from your soles, they had their "Aha!" moment...

62 = 23+18 +21

So if the scorpions got 23 and 18 who's picking up the 21 ?

Mike

 

[charly]

... Killing them was sad, but I wasn't ready to go chasing after them. I apologized to them and to all house critters I kill, like the annual winged ant invasion after the first big summer rain. I do release some though. When the front door opens in summer, small pyramid moths flock inside. I believe that spiders, scorpions and camel spiders "hear" them, possibly in distress, and so find ways inside to hunt them. To me it's better than living in a hermetically sealed bubble; and I am the real guest here...

Bruce:

You did well, always is better not to have angry animal spirits lurking against oneself.

I wonder what did move the unfortunate scorpions for exiting from the safe concealment under the bed for going to prick you.

Scorpions have the custom to climb female clothes for forcing women to take off their skirts.

​

Revealing Metaphor ... This Nayika disrobes to ostensibly rid herself of the scorpion. The scorpion here is a metaphor for lust and also a pun on Khajuraho as the sanskrit word for it is Kharjura.The original name for the village was Kharjuravahaka, meaning the scorpion bearer.

From: India Today: Beyond the Erotica
At: http://www.india-today.com/itoday/15031999/arts.html

What moved the SCORPIONS was maybe their own LUST.

Better avoid to put yourself in front of a SCORPION, even less if slept, for something they have a tail like soldiers have weapons.

Scorpions don't only use the venom of his tail for attacking victims, they also inject it to their mates when having sex with them.

Male scorpions are known to sting females while mating... the sexual sting could be...

• a stimulating impulse (excite by submission?),
• predator suppressant (praying mantis lesson?),
• a modifier of muscular contraction (Kama Sutra?),
• or a means to avoid exposing his mate to venom components that in some species are highly toxic to scorpions (tender, loving care?)...

Or, in so immobilising his mate, did the scorpion learn from the experience of his friend Mr. Praying Mantis, who gets eaten up by his Mrs. after mating? ...

Verbatim from: D. Balasubramanian (The Hindu)
at: http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/...03031300070200.htm&date=2003/03/13/&prd=seta&

Praying Mantis and Cicada are characters from an old chinese story. Scorpions have not only to do with LOVE, also with WAR (but this is another story). Scorpions are well know by chinese people:

July 24, 2008 What's On the Menu?
Beijing has asked hotels and restaurants in the city to take dog meat off the menu for the duration of next month’s Olympics and September’s Paralympics, but some things you can look forward to are scorpions on a stick, on offer along with silkworms and seahorses.

​

From: http://www.bestoday.com.au/sick/archives/newsworthy/

Brrr! LUST is the word.

Best regards,

Charly


_____________________________________
(1) the scorpion badge of the LRDG:

From: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/new-zealand.htm
​

 

[Sparhawk]

Hola Charly,

Now that you've posted that picture of the girl eating scorpions on a stick, let's make it more personal. Here is my own son, Adriel, eating them in Beijing (was studying there last January). He says the small ones are OK and crunchy, but the big ones he's eating in the picture are chewy, pasty and grainy inside. He compared them with "chinchulines malos", like chinchulines not roasted enough ("chinchulines" are cow small intestines that are usually BBQ'ed in Argentina/Uruguay)

 

[charly]

... personal. Here is my own son, Adriel, eating them in Beijing (was studying there last January). He says the small ones are OK and crunchy, but the big ones he's eating in the picture are chewy, pasty and grainy inside. He compared them with ... chinchulines not roasted enough...

Luis:

Glad to know your son. I suppose he has nothing personal against Scorpions, but to compare them with RAW CHINCHULINES! Ahgg!

Maybe girls look more nice when crunching scorpions (1).

Abrazo,

Charly

_______________________
(1) Do you remember Hugo Pratt?

From: http://comicsolvidados.blogspot.com/2009/05/enlaces-dd-080509.html

​

 

[AnitaS]

Enjoyed your photos, Bert!

 

[charly]

Enjoyed your photos, Bert!

Hi, Circe:

Where are Bert's photos?

I miss Bert. Do you know what happened with him?

Maybe does somebody else know?


Yours,

Charly