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A question about a stock

just_me

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I hope some of you will give me your opinion on this reading I got when I asked about a stock. I asked 2 questions:
1.) How will this stock do over the course of 8 months? I got 14.4.26
2.) How will this stock do over the course of 12 months? I got 61 unchanging.

To me the first answer sound very promising but the second one leaves me wondering. I would appreciate your help. Thanks
 

dobro p

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In the first 8 months, the stock won't dominate in any way - that's okay.

In the first 12 months: now you're talking! It sounds like the Yi's talking about you investing in the stock: it talks about abundance and good fortune, and taking a chance and wading into the situation and doing what you think is right - all in the context of getting to the heart of the matter.

So it looks like it'll do better over the year than in the next 8 months.

(insert disclaimer here)
 

pam

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What stock was it? It may go up for awhile and then drastically down. (14-26) Don't ask for such a long period. Ask for a certain range of price - I do this pretty much for a living. It is not easy at first, but it works well once you know what you are doing. If you want, I will tell you what I get on a reading of this stock. And by the way, Dobro, 61 is not a good reading for a stock. Reach for the disclaimer.

Ask if it will reach a certain price this year - or should you invest in it now - or ever. Ask if you can make 50%, 25%, whatever you are looking for, in that amount of time. Your question is too open ended. Ask what price you should buy it at. Be specific in what you want. Ask more than one question. Tell me the stock and I will try to get a good reading for you. But above all, one reading is not enough to make an investment on, let alone a day trade. I assume you are talking long term investment...?

It's worthwhile to use for investments - but only once you know the I Ching pretty intimately. It can be very reluctant to give an easy answer.
 

dobro p

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"And by the way, Dobro, 61 is not a good reading for a stock. Reach for the disclaimer."

Dunno if I'll reach for it yet. How do you figure that 61's no good for buying a stock? The hexagram's very positive overall.
 

hilary

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Pam, you should write a book about this. One with suggested questions to ask, example readings and outcomes, lists of what you've found particular hexagrams or lines to mean...

Curious, though: what do you mean by 'very reluctant to give an easy answer'? You sound almost as though Yi were putting up resistance to your efforts, which isn't a way I've ever experienced it.

Regarding the readings... maybe 14,4 might translate to something like 'will be OK provided no-one makes the mistake of talking it up and overvaluing it'? (The 'maybe' and 'might' express exactly how confident I am about that.)

As for 61 - no stock experience. But generally it carries overtones of 'truth will out' which give pause for thought.
 

pakua

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"Pam, you should write a book about this"

I would be curious what such a book would do to the market, once a great number of people started using it.
 

just_me

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Pam, Dobro, and Hillary, thanks for your comments. Pam, I can't tell you what stock this is, but I will tell you that it is a penny stock, which means it can be very volitile and very risky. I thought the 14 moving toward 26 was very positive. 61, though, I wasn't sure of. Pam, why do you say 61 is not good reading for a stock?
 

pam

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All,

Usually, 61 means "with what you already know (it is a penny stock, you already received one answer saying the result or background is TAMING power of the great, and the market in general is not good and not predicted to be good this year) the Inner Truth is evident - it will not do well. Or "truth will out" if you like, but that is not positive for a stock on its own. Truth isn't always positive. If you knew this was a runaway year for stocks, this was Apple in its infancy and had a great product everyone would want and you received a different more positive answer at first, then 61 might be okay.

If you had gotten 61 > 35 or 61 > 10 or something along that line, then it would have been a better answer.

Hilary, when I say very reluctant, I mean many times the answer will be given by saying it in a way that is like a puzzle. I don't think it is offering resistance to giving me the answer - more like it knows I won't correctly make the trade because I am off on the numbers, the range, some sudden development, and it saves me from blowing it. It also muddies things up a bit if I am anxious, nervous, stressed, or need some other information more urgently. Remember all the posts involving just this happening when the Yi is trying to tell you something more important than what you are asking? Well, in this case, making a trade on the basis of a few questions would be disastrous if you got it wrong. What if it is trying to tell you "don't drive your car today - you're going to be in an accident" and you think the stock is going to split apart and short it? Maybe the stock is going up $4.00 that day. You might not ask again about other things and later in the day have your wreck.

The other day I asked about what a stock would do for the day and received 9 > 23. If you use the lines, returning to the path, not getting lost, going back, good fortune; then disorder resulting in splitting apart. What happened was: The stock OPENED $1.50 DOWN so "coming back" in this case was going back UP to where it was BEFORE (or with a background of) the splitting apart. It went straight up from the open and closed up .93 (which is still splitting apart from where it closed).

Technically the Yi gave an accurate answer, but if I had guessed on what it would do and made the trade on that throw alone, I would have figured "coming back" would have meant DOWN (resulting in splitting apart) because it was UP the day before. It would have been "coming back" down, and hex 9 with those first two lines had been true many times on days when the stock hadn't moved overnight. In fact, contrary to what you might think, 9 > 53 often means the stock is going to tank if it has been up the day before and the "development" is an outside influence. Say, oil jumps another .50 up and investors are upset by eBay's numbers, or whatever.

Luckily, I found a more obvious trade, which was easier to decipher and correctly made the trade.

Pakua, I won't write a book on this for just the above example - it takes incredible amounts of life experience using the I Ching before a person can correctly interpret which direction the stock will move. It also requires asking the right questions. I did know about the last few weeks - I knew eBay would tank but at that price I was too chicken to short it - too bad because I knew at 118 that I should short until at least 90. It is way below that now. And it wouldn't have much effect on the market, because not enough people would actually get it right all the time. There are always answers like "25 > 20" which can mean just about anything from huge ups to huge downs, to total stagnation, to something happens to ME to prevent me from trading (my online account got screwed up one day and this was my only clue).

I do keep an extensive spread sheet on various questions, answers and the outcomes. Even so, there are contradictions (which I note) when one day the answer will mean one thing, some other time, the opposite. This is where my own 'inner truth' applies - if I am in touch with what I know about the day in general and the stock's movement, maybe I will get it right on one of those contradictions - but when I see an answer that has played out both ways, I ask lots more questions.

If I wrote a book, undoubtedly the same people who believe that horrible throws mean their true love will come back to them, despite all evidence to the contrary, will make horrible investment mistakes. Then I would feel responsible. I'll give anyone who wants it here advice for free, but writing a book would be like me saying to the Yi "I've got you all figured out" when in truth, no one does.
 

pam

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Just Me -

It occurred to me later that maybe if you won't give me the name of the stock and you threw "inner truth" you have some insider knowledge that you aren't sharing here. I still wouldn't change my opinion that it isn't such a great throw, but consider this....you asked about 8 months and about 12 months. It is possible that the 14 could be the stock rising for the first (x) months, then by the end of the time period for 8 months, it would have gone back down. By the end of 12 months it might even be less than now.

This is where asking specific time periods, prices and percentages would help you. I wouldn't throw this out of the picture on the basis of those two throws. I don't invest in penny stocks myself. I did invest once in a biotech stock about 12 years ago that I knew had a good product waiting for FDA approval and the process would take about three months. I had a lot of information on the company, the scientists, insider holdings, etc. So I bought it at around $1.52. At the time, I guess, a penny stock. Then I just waited the three months. I had purchased 5,000 shares. When the FDA approved it, as expected, the shares tripled and I made about $15,500. HOWEVER, the stock immediately began to sink back and went down to around $2.10 by the end of the fourth month. I didn't track it after that. This would be a taming power of the great situation.

If it continued to sink and was back to $1.52 by the twelfth month, that would be "inner truth" - the rally over the FDA approval wasn't enough to carry the price since the product wasn't being bought up in big enough quantities to sustain that price. However, this wasn't what I threw. My throw was much more positive - don't remember it now but I am pretty sure it included 52 or 5 or 17 turning into 14. I know the end result was 14, just don't remember the initial hex.

Try for the price you want - see if it will get there at any time. And remember, with penny stocks, you need a bunch to make any money. Any negative movement will lose you a bunch. You may luck out on a different time period or buying at a different price.

A last note - if you have a spouse and they are against this purchase because of the risk, then 14 > 26 could mean "your spouse will be the taming power of the great in this picture". And Inner Truth is just backing it up. Make sure there isn't something else in the picture.
 

dobro p

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"Usually, 61 means "with what you already know ... the Inner Truth is evident - it will not do well."

Maybe it's the imprecise punctuation in your post, but if you're saying the above is the meaning of 61, you're way off base.

If you're saying the meaning is: "with what you already know ... the Inner Truth is evident", then you're closer, but you're leaving out the fact that the text also talks about good fortune and how advantageous it is to undertake an enterprise and carry out what you think is right, putting your best ideas to the test.

If you're making money on the market using the Yi, I think it's got more to do with your innate investment savvy than careful readings of the oracle. Got any stock tips for us?
 

cguleff

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This is interesting . . . I work in the investment field and am interested in any and all methodologies for investment selection. I once asked the I Ching the advisability of using it for portfolio decisions and was given what I took to be a discouraging answer. I'll have to check my journal and report the answer later, since I'm not at home.

Chris
 

pam

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Dobro,

Sorry, it was the punctuation. I should have ended the sentence after 'the inner truth is evident'. The last part was "in this particular case given the first reading, my opinion is it will not do well." Better?

But how can you just assume 61 is a positive reading and the stock will be doing great in 12 months? "Tui is the image of the mouth - hence discussions. Sun is the Gentle, the hesitating - hence delay of executions. In other hexagrams, Sun also means commands. Killing and judging are attributes of Tui." Willhelm p. 700.

I don't take it to mean killing and judging. Yet you apparently have taken a phrase from some interpretation that you feel means it is always good. Think of this example: If I think my son is not studying enough and he keeps reassuring me that he is doing great, then I ask how he will do on his French final and get "61" - what do you think that means? To me, it means "I know he hasn't been studying enough and obviously if this continues, he will do poorly." It might be good fortune that I bothered to ask, and then hired a French tutor for him, but that would have been another question. It would not mean he would ace the final.

In almost every hexagram there is some indication of good fortune for carrying out what you think is right. But RIGHT is more of a moral judgment than a stock tip.

Chris - maybe when you asked you didn't have enough experience yet, or had a better way of judging investments. Ask again. Maybe there is some other reason you shouldn't use it for investments. My oldest son and a friend broke off from an investment bank two years ago to form their own boutique (not my work, the industry's) investment bank and are doing great. He sometimes takes my advice. I sometimes take his.

My middle son is right now in N.Y. being recruited to run a hedge fund. (29 yrs. old) I don't know if he will take it because it is a cross country move and his wife isn't hot on the idea. He is an investment banker at another firm. He doesn't take my advice, but on the other hand, he is in M&A and his own investments are in things I cannot invest in because he gets stock in deals that I can't get. Also, I mostly day trade and he doesn't have time for that at all. But he doesn't discourage me from doing it my way.

I don't think I have any innate investment savvy, but I certainly study everything I can about investments and investing, and carefully record what stocks do when I throw a hex for their movement.

Stock tip: Short. Another tip: There is a stock called MCHX, which provides services to online merchants. I buy and short this frequently since it is cheap and moves a lot each day. I think this will go to 26 this year. It closed at 18.63, but I think it may go lower before I would recommend it. I haven't bothered to find out how low yet, but I will tell you if I get the number. I probably won't buy and hold, but I may. Probably when it hits 15 (or a closer price if I determine that) I won't short any more - just buy. Can't find too many other things right now that look good this year. That doesn't sound like a great tip, but 15 to 26 would be a good run up for this year. I know by your tone you didn't think I would give you a tip, but there it is.
 

cguleff

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I got home and checked the reading on I Ching and investing. The question was: "What would be the soundness and outcome of consulting the I Ching for investment decisions?" The response: 36.1,5 -> 39. Does anyone see anything encouraging in that reading?

Pam, you're right about one thing. I HAVE developed a method for investing that works for me. I do quite a bit of analytical work and reading to prep myself, then make the actual decision quite intuitively -- often contrary to "sound" investment theory and practice -- but it works! I really love the field of investing. I entered it professionally late in life, after having been a librarian and then a computer professional.

Chris
 

hilary

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"Inner truth. Pigs and fishes, good fortune.
Harvest in crossing the great river.
Harvest in constancy."

That's not "a phrase from some interpretation": that's Yi at its most emphatic and straightforward. Inner truth means wealth (whatever else pigs and fishes are, they're wealth) and good fortune, and that there will be good results from committing yourself and persisting.

So why, in that case, am I so cautious about #61? Experience with many people's relationship questions, basically. It seems to act as a kind of high-powered magnifying lens for what is really there, but with no guarantee about what it will reveal.

'Just Me' -please let us know after the event how this stock gets on, whether or not you invest!

Chris - I agree I wouldn't fall over myself to consult Yi on investments after Brightness Hiding and Limping. If there's anything encouraging, it's the chance to learn: being able to see the truth from behind the scenes, like Prince Chi, even though you are wholly unable to turn it to your own advantage.
 

jerryd

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As the curious bystander here on this thread I am wondering if there are specialists within your ranks for all sorts of devination from reading the Yi? Specialists abound in other fields of devination; in particular I am married to one of the best Astrologers in Australia. I know there are astrologers which read nothing but financial forcasts and do very well, there are others for almost any fiekd you wish to name. Is this true for Yi and do the Hexagrams have to be seen (interperted with this knowledge in mind) differently for the differing areas of service being questioned about and the true meanings sorted accordingly? I would assume so!
 

dobro p

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"I know by your tone you didn't think I would give you a tip, but there it is."

ROFL - you're right, you surprised me. I'm no day trader. I'll leave it to people who know what they're doing.

"But how can you just assume 61 is a positive reading and the stock will be doing great in 12 months?"

I don't assume anything. I thought about the question that was asked, and I consulted the Yi text for Hex 61, and applied one to the other. It's interpretation, not assumption.

"Tui is the image of the mouth - hence discussions. Sun is the Gentle, the hesitating - hence delay of executions. In other hexagrams, Sun also means commands. Killing and judging are attributes of Tui." Willhelm p. 700."

You can go crazy with that trigram stuff if you want, but you're ignoring the main text again.

"Yet you apparently have taken a phrase from some interpretation that you feel means it is always good."

Nah, I can't let you get away with that. Check ANY major I Ching you can lay your hands on, and the main text for Hex 61 is full of positive or promising stuff. It is, as they say, auspicious. For example, here's Wilhelm (I'm no big fan of Wilhelm, but he's kind of well-known and a sort of common denominator for a lot of Yi users):

Inner truth. Pigs and fishes.
Good fortune.
It furthers one to cross the great water.
Perseverance furthers.

Now, you might think that 'Inner Truth' is neutral, but I interpret it as positive, because how often are we lucky enough to see into the heart of things? 'Pigs and fishes' is really positive - check out the Chinese connotations for these animals. 'Good fortune' is uh...positive. 'It furthers one to cross the great water' means something like 'it's beneficial to wade into this, to take the risk and try to make it through'. 'Perseverance further' means there's advantage in carrying out what you think is right in this case.

Now, tell me what you find in that that isn't positive? Tell me what you find in that which warns the querent away from the intended course of action?
 

pam

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Dobro,

Answer: My own experience in watching a stock's movement after that throw. And we are talking about stock purchases here.

Hilary,

That is a waffle answer if I ever heard one. I believe the good fortune comes from knowing the truth in a situation, the confidence you gain from the certainty that you know the truth. If the truth is not good (your husband is cheating on you or you are in failing health) then it is at least better to be prepared with the truth than living in dillusion. On the other hand, if your belief is that your husband is attracted to someone else but he will never have an affair then 61 would be a validation that your confidence is correct. Good fortune that you can rely on that because your belief in him is right, but not necessarily great that he is attracted to someone else.

As I said above, if Just Me has some "inner truth" about this stock that we are not privy to, then his throw speaks directly to whatever this knowledge is. I believe if that inside information was good, the throw would have been different. I don't remember getting 61 unmoving about investing in anything where to do so would have had a good result. But he also said this is a very volatile stock and his time period was really set. The stock could be all over the board in the next twelve months and that is the inner truth he knows - so perhaps it just continues to fluctuate wildly and never make concrete gains. A penny stock that goes up and down $1.50 constantly in a year is never going to make anyone money unless he had 10,000 shares and was trading it often. There are better ways to invest and he wasn't asking about day trading. Thus, he knows the truth.
 

hilary

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So in your book, the basic message of 61 is something like, 'What you already know is the incontrovertible truth (And it's good fortune to know)'?

Can it ever talk about an unknown truth, do you think?

You and Dobro between you have raised an interesting question. Is interpretation about a) reading the words of the text and bringing them together with the question or b) remembering a kind of experiential 'average' for the hexagram?

OK - both, of course. But what's the correct balance between the two?

And this links up to Jerryd's question. Can anyone interpret successfully in a situation where they have no experience? (Do I need to know Yi, or do I need to know 'Yi for traders'?)
 

dobro p

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You are so tolerant.

"But what's the correct balance between the two?"

I think that might depend on how much you rely on the printed oracle, and to what extent you *are* oracular yourself. I tend toward the forward. Exclusively, I think lol.

"Can anyone interpret successfully in a situation where they have no experience? (Do I need to know Yi, or do I need to know 'Yi for traders'?)"

Each has its advantages and disadvantages I think.
 

hilary

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I find the two feed into each other in a continuous cycle - or maybe that should be a spiral. Evidently hexagrams aren't a way to 'cut and paste' from one experience to another. Instead hexagrams make me revisit my understanding of situations which make me revisit my understanding of hexagrams which...

What I'm aiming for, though, is definitely to know Yi, not 'Yi for xyz'. For me it's about knowing a pattern, not memorising a series of applications and outcomes. Probably the same for most people, at least those who aren't writing 'The I Ching for xyz' books.
wink.gif
 

pam

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Now that is a good question, Hilary. I would have to say that from my experience, inner truth COULD be something you don't know yet, but it is definitely something you could or should find out. I think the Yi can use it to tell you, 'there is something here that you are missing' if you don't understand what it is saying. I suppose if you ask about someone else it might indicate that they understand the inner truth of their situation - but I still think in that case, you already know what that inner truth is, or you would receive a more direct answer indicating what the truth is.

I checked back over a few months of stock throws and was able to find one instance where I had thrown 61 on the question "what will the Nasdaq do next week?" where as it turned out the Nasdaq went UP 50 points for the week.....however, this was something I SHOULD have known would happen because, from my notes, Apple was going to have a big jump that week (it went up 5 for the week) and RIMM was also going up and positive throws were made for those two and three others right before I asked about the Nasdaq. Both those stocks have heavy volume and are widely followed. They generally can give me an idea of what the trend will be, so knowing those two would be up and the other three were also going to have mild gains, my question about the Nasdaq was superfluous. I was just checking and expecting something ending in progress, increase, or another positive indication. I guess I got 61 because I was on autopilot - not thinking. So 61 was not saying "of course, it will have great good fortune and go up"; it was saying "think, Pam, I already told you what would happen to these 5 stocks and do you think that would be the case if the market was not going the same way?"

Sometimes asking the I Ching stock questions is like a conversation where it asks me, "are you doing your best on this? Another day would be better than today for you ... you aren't really in tune... why aren't you listening to what I have told you already? .... etc." Thus, reluctance to answer a ridiculous question....or a question that is leading me in the wong direction...

Many times I find that it is telling me to do better...to think...ask for more...find the exact right answer instead of settling for some mild gain with a questionable risk before the gain...

I think in answer to your question about interpreting successfully in any circumstance - no. It took me years to translate what I knew about relationships into stock moves. 15 YEARS of investing using the I Ching. And as I have told you, I started using the I Ching at 18 and am now 56. And I still make mistakes. Yes, I agree with the spiral theory, because knowing relationships increases my knowledge of the stock throws, and they, in turn, increase my knowledge of small nuances involving relationships or other questions. But to rely on the words of the oracle alone is foolish. As we have all seen, the relating hex can be the background, the result, the possible future if an action is taken, or sometimes just the two names of the hexes put together can be the entire message. I used to rely on the words alone the first year or so I invested - and what a mixed bag that was. Careful notes were the only thing that gradually improved my luck in using the I Ching for investments. Sometimes the lines indicate the actual movement - sometimes the lines have nothing to do with the movement. Only experience remains pretty consistent.

And something you never take into account - the I Ching talks directly to ME - saying I am not reading it correctly, I am being foolish, I am in need of "working on what is spoiled", I am hoping for too much, I am settling for too little...." I can't tell you or anyone this in a book, you need intuition to realize that it is speaking directly to you, not telling your what the stock will do.....That is why there will be no book, no big boast...I will help anyone with what I think is going to happen, but I am not invincible and don't pretend to be.

I would not translate this success into interpreting for medical conditions. Or world politics. Or any other field I have no experience in. Yes, I want to know the Yi, and thus I am not writing a book about The Yi for Traders. But since I happen to know more about this area, I feel I can offer a clearer picture of the probable outcome than someone who has never used the Yi to trade.

Dobro, when you get to this stage, you will be a great deal more humble than you are.
 

frederick

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Hi guys:-

An author named Adam Smith (not the economist) wrote an article regarding The Yi and stock anticipation in a book called "Powers of mind." From what I can remember, he did well in the beginning; however, the Yi, being the teacher and not too concerned with individual gain (or, perhaps not until one learns to be what one should) naturally started to guide him to the Way.
Unfortunatly (or not), this was lost on Mr. Smith.

If anyone indeed is advanced enough to succeed, I agree with Hilary; write it down. I myself, my teacher/students, and more than a few others, are hungry for any evidence of tangent reality concerning the Yi.

Just a thought...

Fred
 

pam

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Fred,

That is interesting - but what if the same thing happened to others using such a guide? It might work perfectly for the one who wrote the guide, but the Yi might take someone who has no interest in the Way and turn the answers upside down on him. Then when it didn't work as expected, people's finances would tumble and the person who wrote the guide would be disparaged. Doesn't that follow from Mr. Smith's experience?
 

lindsay

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Fred is a little confused about Adam Smith. The topic came up about two years ago in this forum. See Adam Smith. Using the Yi to predict stocks is an old story. I wish you well.
 

frederick

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Pam: Good point.

Lindsey: Whatever... I'm just a vague case history nut with no intent. It means nothing in the long run. I just like to read.

Later.
 

pam

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Lindsay & Fred,

I want to share something with you that I am going to close out this discussion with (on my part) from Wilhelm, and I still consider his translation the best as far as moral compass type of thing goes:

"For according to the universal law of events, every increase is followed by decrease, and all fullness is followed by emptiness. There is only one means of making foundations firm in time of greatness, namely, spiritual expansion. Every sort of limitation brings a bitter retribution in its train. Abundance can endure only if ever larger groups are brought to share in it, for only then can the movement continue without turning into its opposite." I threw this in answer to a question 12 years ago about investing using the I Ching. Think about it......that is why it still works for me 12 years later and 15 years after beginning the stock investment part of my I Ching experience.

There is a way. It just takes following the path of the superior person. And most people will never choose to live that life. Give, and the I Ching will continue to give. Be selfish, and you will suffer the fate of Adam Smith and all of his compatriots.
 

just_me

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WOW, take off for a few days and see what happens. I thought the discussion was pretty much over.
Hillary, I have to say I did think hex 61 could be a positive reading. To me, what the commentary said about being able to communicate or get thru to pigs and fishes (I don't have the book in front of me so I can't quote), seemed to suggest the possibility of a product that would be successful far and wide. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Pam, I am grateful for your input. Right now I guess I'm a mid to long term investor so that is why I put the time range at 8 to 12 months.
Thanks to everyone else for your input also.
 

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