A system of I Ching - Tarot correspondences

[bradford]

In I Ching terms, critical thinkers deny that appearance has anything to do with significance. Hexagram 27, they might admit, is shaped like a mouth, but they deny that this appearance has anything to do with the meaning of hexagram 27. Hexagram 50, they might admit, is shaped like a ding, but they deny that this appearance has anything to do with the meaning of hexagram 50. For those unafflicted with critical thinking, such obvious pairings of appearance and significance is an invitation to view the significance of all hexagrams as originating in their appearance.

I think the Gua Image (Gua Xiang) was a big part of the meaning for several Gua, like Ding, and no part at all for others. But the 8's were written differently when the Zhouyi was young and that should be looked at.

 

[ianek]

>>Who says you MUST trust anything, let alone the wisdom of a mythical creator of a book? If you do trust such wisdom, you would stop what you are doing and cease to find correspondences with other systems, since such systems were NOT in the mind of those wise men when they "created" the Yijing. Well?
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Excuse me, but it sounds very strange. First of all, I didn't said "must", I said "if one accept wisdom of I Ching texts, one should accept the order of I Ching hexagrams also". Many people reject I Ching wisdom itself and you will never convince them that they are mistaken. I am only talking about logical consitency: if you trust something which you can't reproduce (anyone of us can't reproduce or derive the I Ching texts) it would be reasonably to trust not only the texts but the order of the hexagrams also. Secondly, if I trust the wisdoms of the creators of I Ching, i.e. full systems of archetypes with 64 elements, it doesn't mean that I can't study another systems of archetypes, the assumtion and the conclusion are not connected in this case.

>>The Yijing is an intellectual work, shrouded in myth and historical references, period. There's no theology in it to take on "faith" (or trust in their "wisdom"). There isn't a "creator" of it but an evolution of it, through countless exegetes and scribes, over a couple of thousands of years, that ended up with what we received to work with.
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Excuse me, bit it seems rather presumptuously. Now not you nor anybody else can't reproduce the texts of I Ching, so if you treat I Ching as a divination system, you need to "trust" the wisdom (without quotes) of I Ching ancient creators. Otherwise, you get only literature work comprises rather unconnected pieces of texts. In other words, if you use something you don't entirely understand and can't derive from the origins, just the fact of "using" automatically means that you trust the inventors of this "something".

>>You are not doing anything different from what many people with an interest in it have been doing for a very long time (actually, not that long because these exercises are a Western phenomena):
Trying to FIT IT within the context of other systems that share the common denominator of all of them being divination devices.
Of course, it is a very entertaining affair for many. Personally, I think there's so much to work with, without straying away from it, that stepping outside its circle to make a square peg fit in a round hole, is not studying the classic at all. There is NOTHING to be found OUTSIDE of it that would make ANYONE understand the classic better.
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I am not studying the classic, I am studying the symbolical systems and their interconnections.

 

[ianek]

2 bradford

PS. As far as I understand you are not going to discuss H10 and Oedipus to compare the systems of correspondences. Well, I admit that the situation is a bit unfair: I chose the most simple exapmle justifing proposed systm of the correspondences. But you can yourself choose the example for comparision, an another hexagram, and we can discuss it.

 

[ianek]

>>Oedipus bulldozed ahead despite the best advice of everyone. Back to Hex 39, looking better the more I think about this...
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It would be very interesting to see your argumentation when you finally become sure about H39 and Oedipus. At this moment I can't find any essential justification for this correspondence.

 

[Sparhawk]

__________________________________
I am not studying the classic, I am studying the symbolical systems and their interconnections.

Yes, I can tell. Thanks for the honesty. Alas, there's no way to fairly and correctly interconnect systems without thoroughly studying and understanding them before undertaking the task.

 

[ianek]

>>Yes, I can tell. Thanks for the honesty. Alas, there's no way to fairly and correctly interconnect systems without thoroughly studying and understanding them before undertaking the task.
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It's just an opinion. After all, what do you mean by "thoroughly studying" of I Ching? Learn chineese language? Or, make historical research of its origin? (And the similar question can be asked about Tarot.) I think, it's not the point. The historical researches are interesting but the studying the genesis of I Ching is not necessary for finding the system of correspondences. The I Ching texts and Tarot cards are already known and if you have developed symbolical thinking you can check the proposed system. Let me say that in this topic I did'n see any relevant objection to the system. For example, I mentioned the correspondence between H10 and 5 of pentacles and gave some argumentation. Are you disagree with this correspondence? Then disprove it. Do you think there is a better correspondence for H10? Then claim it and base it. Do you think there is no correspondences between I Ching and Tarot at all? Then you can ignore this topic.

 

[ianek]

PS. Let me also note that I find your allusion about "thoroughly underatstanding" a bit offensive.

 

[Sparhawk]

The I Ching texts and Tarot cards are already known and if you have developed symbolical thinking you can check the proposed system.

Since you've discarded the original Chinese text as unnecessary to the study of the Yijing and seem to work only with translations, you seem to forget (or are unaware of) that you put three translators together in a room and you get five opinions on the proper way to translate any given part of the Yijing...

For example, I mentioned the correspondence between H10 and 5 of pentacles and gave some argumentation. Are you disagree with this correspondence? Then disprove it.

I don't care enough for Tarot to find any correspondences with the Yijing (pointless, IMHO). I have enough on the Yijing plate, thank you. But if you want to really do it, take clues from serious people that have studied both systems, like our friend Lothar Teikemeier (for ours, I mean those that have shared opinions with him in the old Hex-8 mailing list, many years ago) and his Trionfi website. He knows more about Tarot than anybody I know.

Do you think there is no correspondences between I Ching and Tarot at all? Then you can ignore this topic.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'll stick around.

 

[Sparhawk]

PS. Let me also note that I find your allusion about "thoroughly underatstanding" a bit offensive.

Really? Tough but it is true. I'm not apologizing. In my book, half comprehending any two systems and then putting them together in a correspondence doesn't make a whole "valid unit"...

 

[elias]

>>Oedipus bulldozed ahead despite the best advice of everyone. Back to Hex 39, looking better the more I think about this...
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It would be very interesting to see your argumentation when you finally become sure about H39 and Oedipus. At this moment I can't find any essential justification for this correspondence.

I don't need "to become sure" because such an exercise is ultimately pointless. The comparisons do not withstand more than superficial agreement. Greek Tragedy and I Ching are of utterly different cultural matrices. You'd do as well comparing episodes of Seinfeld with the IC.

«Ένα πράγμα μόνο ξέρω, και αυτό είναι ότι δεν ξέρω τίποτα." - Σωκράτης

 

[sooo]

You'd do as well comparing episodes of Seinfeld with the IC.

Oh, come now, Elias. Surely the relationship is obvious between the Soup Nazi episode and 27.1!

I agree with your perspective, and I think it's crazy talk to think that every system of divination must have its gears cut to match another system. It's like trying to switch out the parts of two different watches. They both keep time accurately, both use the same mechanical principles, but their parts are rarely interchangeable.

Maria pointed me to the Osho Tarot system of divination, and I check it every once in awhile. It's not traditional Tarot, but it does divine with cards similarly. Its answers have the same feeling of 'truthenticity' of the Yijing (at least as I interpret them, which is to say inwardly first). I can't recall a time when it's been wrong. It would make nice coffee conversation and fun, matching Yijing similes with ones Osho reading. http://www.osho.com/Main.cfm?Area=Magazine&Sub1Menu=Tarot&Sub2Menu=OshoZenTarot&Language=English

The same for Jessica's The Faery's Oracle. This oracle, no matter what cult category one might wish to include it with (i.e. New Age, etc), is "magically" spot on. She and I had numerous discussions, making comparatives between it and the Yijing. They're certainly there, whether one sees them as Faery's or Sages; and who says they're not the same? http://faerywisdom.com http://faerywisdom.com/sage.html

I think "it" eludes being pinned down to static symmetry, and it allows each system to operate according to its author's images, or a collaboration, such as Jessica Macbeth with artist Brian Froud, and their inspirations or muses. Jessica is a practicing Buddhist, and combines and shares the two sources of inspiration in an elegant way. I personally don't use this system, but I do regard it as a legitimate oracle.


It's a question of what resonates with an individual, for whatever individual reasons. The Yijing isn't it, it is an oracle of it. The stars aren't it, but they can be an oracle of it, having order, but not necessarily an order.

 

[anemos]

an exampe

Once I asked Yi about a significant dream needed to unravel. I also used Osho Tarots and feary's Tarots. I haven't save those readings but i assure you that there were common things as well as complementary ones.

I needed to ask a feedback from Yi regarding an action i took. prefer not to share the question or the matter, but I used the two other Tarots too.

sharing this example. You can see the sublet similarites, the more clear once and the differences or the view from another angle. there is a funny coincidence which I don't believe shows a correspondance but Yi gave 37 and the other cards are the # 37 of the deck .

( the coffee on me )


Yi 37.1.3.6 > 8


I drow an Osho Card

37. Slowing Down


Meditation is a kind of medicine - its use is only for the time being. Once you have learned the quality, then you need not do any particular meditation; then the meditation has to spread all over your life. Walking is Zen, sitting is Zen.

Then what will be the quality? Watchfully, alert, joyously, unmotivated, centered, loving, flowing, one walks. And the walking is sauntering. Loving, alert, watchful, one sits, unmotivated - not sitting for anything in particular, just enjoying how beautiful just sitting doing nothing is, how relaxing, how restful..... After a long walk, you sit under a tree and the breeze comes and cools you. Each moment one has to be at ease with oneself - not trying to improve, not cultivating anything, not practicing anything.

Walking is Zen, sitting is Zen. Talking or silent, moving, unmoving, the essence is at ease. The essence is at ease: that is the key word. The essence is at ease: that is the key statement. Do whatsoever you are doing, but at the deepest core remain at ease, cool, calm, centered.
Osho The Sun Rises in the Evening Chapter 7

Commentary:
The Knight of Rainbows is a reminder that, just like this tortoise, we carry our home with us wherever we go. There is no need to hurry, no need to seek shelter elsewhere. Even as we move into the depths of the emotional waters, we can remain self-contained and free from attachments.

It is a time when you are ready to let go of any expectations you have had about yourself or other people, and to take responsibility for any illusions you might have been carrying. There is no need to do anything but rest in the fullness of who you are right now. If desires and hopes and dreams are fading away, so much the better. Their disappearance is making space for a new quality of stillness and acceptance of what is, and you are able to welcome this development in a way you have never been able to before. Savor this quality of slowing down, of coming to rest and recognizing that you are already at home.

faerys oracle http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/online/oracle/oracle/card-37.htm

37 .Tobaira of the Waters

E

motions. Serenity. Meditation. Gracefully accepting change.




Starter Reading Water is mutable, changeable, fluid, and Tobaira speaks to us of a particular kind of change--change of emotions and possibly a change in health as well. We have important choices to make about how we meet those changes and where we let them take us--toward the calm, flowing purity of the faery waters or the boiling cauldron of hot temper and steamy emotions. The choice is obvious, but we sometimes forget that we have it. Tobaira reminds us that we do--and making it, wisely or unwisely, determines our future. The things we need in life remain constant, no matter what is going on or how hectic the changes and pressures in our life may be. We need nurturing and love, and it is ultimately up to us to provide that for ourselves. The healing faeries will help us if we ask them to.

 

[pocossin]

H. 10 Treading corresponds to ancient greek tragedy "Oedipus the King" and it is not difficult to see this motif in the Five of Pentacles.

I find ianek's system thoughtful and hope there will be no discouragement against further presentation. Contemplation of relationships can lead to a higher unity whether or not one begins with pareidolia. I find the link between hexagram 10 and Oedipus the King helpful. Hexagram 10, in my opinion, deals with obligations to the dead. Lise has an insight on 10.6 about how the footprints of the spirit of the dead appear in ashes and go full circle when the spirit is satisfied.

Oedipus the King, like all the plays in the trilogy, deals with obligations to the dead: Oedipus the King, religious pollution from failure to find the murderer of Laius; Antigone, violation of funeral rites; Oedipus at Colonus, the feng-shui-like influence of a buried body.

 

[ianek]

There are two ways to interaction with I Ching. In the first way you make the I Ching itself the maim object of investigation and treat it only as the literature work. In this way you can collect some knowledge of I Ching but it's almost useless to understand what the I Ching is talking about. The second way is to accept what I Ching is really is, a mantic system which refers to the full system of 64 archetypes. It's rather clear that in this way the comparision of different translation is pointless: each archetype contains vast amount of meanings and all translations are good if they represent the 64 archetypes correctly. Also, it's obvious the comprehend understanding of I Ching is nothing more then a childish fantasy, nobody can exhaust all meanings of an any archetype. Most of hieroglyphs has many different meanings so for each hexagram we can talk about alive cloud of meaning which indirectly points to vague shape of the archetype connected with the hexgram. It's important to understand that I Ching text is not the archetype itself but something like the road or the channel to touch the archetype.

 

[ianek]

Let's continue to study H10. Firsly, I remind you the argumentation that Oedipus story related with H10.

1. The tiger is H10 resembles sphinx who had lion's body. Treading on the tail can be assosiated with dangerous opposition, riddle in this case.
2. The main subject of sphinx riddle is about the number of legs and the walking . It directly connected with H10 "Treading". ("When Oedipus reached the gates of the city, the creature posed her riddle: What walks on four legs in the morning, two legs at noon, and three legs in the evening? ")
3. The third line "A one-eyed man is able to see,
A lame man is able to tread." remind us what happened with Oedipus:
a servant pierced the child's ankles and Oedipus blinded himself.
4. The sixth line "Look to your conduct and weigh the favorable signs."
can be connected with Oedipus's question to the oracle and the consequences of it. Also it points to Oedipus's reflections after the leaving of Thebes.

There is another well-known example of this realization, it's "Pinoccio".
We can trace the similarity of these two stories rather easily.

1. By accident Pinoccio had burned his wooden legs when he was a wood puppet. Direct analogy to Oedipus.
2. The Fox and the Cat: Greedy animals pretending to be lame and blind respectively. Direct analogy to the tiger's tail - the tiger reminds abot the Cat and any pucture of the fox convinces you that the tail is most peculiar part of the fox's body. Their false diseases (which became real later) again remind us about the third line of H10 - "A one-eyed man is able to see, A lame man is able to tread." And direct analogy to Oedipus's deaseses.
3. During the half of the story Pinoccio is looking for his father swalloed by a big shark. Indirect analogy with Oedipus's story but it sounds.
4. The Fairy with Turquoise Hair adopts him first as her brother, then as her son. More then clear it points to incest: it's the only way to be a brother and a son simultaiously. Clear and impressive analogy with Oedipus's story.
5. Pinoccio's remorses about his bad conduct remind us about the sixth line of H10. "Look to your conduct and weigh the favorable signs."

So, I consider the archetypical similarity of the stories about Pinoccio and Oedipus to be proven. And both of them have traits from H10. Now, please, look at the corresponding Tarot cards - Five of Coins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_of_Coins

You must be full of prejudices to reject this correspondence. But even in this case I have almost irrefutable argument:
"Here, you 've earned FIVE copper COINS," the Puppet Master told Pinocchio. Keep in mind that Pinoccio was published before Rider-Waite Tarot deck.

This is a way how the proposed system of correspondences can be checked. It's a hard work but it's worth to be done.

 

[ianek]

>>I think it's crazy talk to think that every system of divination must have its gears cut to match another system.
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I am not talking about any systems. In case you haven't read the introductuion (http://hermenes.com/Homepage/ichintaro_en.htm )
I sketch for you the logic of the proposed correspondences.

1. Structure of Tarot deck permits to split it into two parts - 14 static Arcana and 64 Arcana of motion.
2. Now there is mutually uniqie correspondence between the hexagrams and the arcana of motion.
3. This correspondences is not random but has the specific order related with King Wen sequences.

 

[rodaki]

Contemplation of relationships can lead to a higher unity whether or not one begins with pareidolia. I find the link between hexagram 10 and Oedipus the King helpful. ( . . .)
Oedipus the King, like all the plays in the trilogy, deals with obligations to the dead: Oedipus the King, religious pollution from failure to find the murderer of Laius;

yes, but Tom, as much as such combinations can be personally helpful, maybe their strength lies in being idiosyncratic creations, beyond the 'authority' of given systematic structures . . for example, I don't see Oedipus and hex10 . . not at all. But neither do I see Oedipus as dealing with obligations to the dead. To my eyes, Oedipus begins with a delphic oracle that a son will take over his father . . for me, that's quintessential 44, coming to meet with something that can take over your status of power, and something that is rooted deep within one's identity at that -not to mention encountering one's own 'oracle' side. Thus

Laius had his ankles pinned together so that he could not crawl, and gave the boy to a servant to abandon ("expose") on the nearby mountain. However, rather than leave the child to die of exposure, as Laius intended, the sympathetic servant passed the baby onto a shepherd from Corinth and then to another shepherd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus

could this be reminiscent of 44.1? and could we see 44's figure as an unstable interaction with the ground or a foot with a hole in its end? I could go on with more connections to the lines but I think this much makes my point.

Not trying to prove anyone wrong, but I think that's what Bradford meant with his pareidolia comments . . Connections are everywhere and archetypes are meant for us to revisit and explore, but perhaps not to take that seriously . . we aren't the archetypes as such, although we all embody each one of them at certain times; likewise, I believe that new connections can be valuable but they lose their power of novelty and change if we try to mold them according to old skins . .

besides, those who work with novel ideas and interdisciplinary approaches know that these bring usually their own structure within and it reveals itself organically once we've evolved them enough . . then a system may arise

just my two cents . .

 

[sooo]

>>I think it's crazy talk to think that every system of divination must have its gears cut to match another system.
____________________________________
I am not talking about any systems. In case you haven't read the introductuion (http://hermenes.com/Homepage/ichintaro_en.htm )
I sketch for you the logic of the proposed correspondences.

1. Structure of Tarot deck permits to split it into two parts - 14 static Arcana and 64 Arcana of motion.
2. Now there is mutually uniqie correspondence between the hexagrams and the arcana of motion.
3. This correspondences is not random but has the specific order related with King Wen sequences.

Sorry, but to me your associations are highly interpretable and subject to all sort of disagreements. I'm not saying there are no good or great connections and similes, but that the contextual backgrounds or fields are different. I think it's a worthy project to compile categories and find (or create) connections, which may have something in common. But, to call them the same is misleading, so long as we're not speaking 'all is one' type thing.

Or, as a compadre who has moved on has said, all hexagrams apply to a given. The argument being: best fit. He creates a system, which has deep implications in 'erotic science'; that is, closely related mental/emotional states. The system makes so much sense to him, he loses his hearing to others who say some essentially similar things (say 3x fast). But the coinages were uniquely his own, even if some concepts were incidentally shared. Bit of tunnel vision, or some might call it acute focus. Some might call it a beautiful mind.

To me, we take what we is given and do the best we can wit it. Any connections are part of the fabric I'm sewn into. The observer observes, while his wife weaves.

 

[ianek]

>>Sorry, but to me your associations are highly interpretable and subject to all sort of disagreements. I'm not saying there are no good or great connections and similes, but that the contextual backgrounds or fields are different.
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Of course, contextual backgrounds are different but the universality of the archetypes ensures that their influences will make some stamps from which we can discern them. These connections and similes are only the means to find a resonance between the two archetypes from different systems. And I never said that h10 and 5 of pentacles are the same archtypes. They correspond each other or resonate, after the correspondence is established they starts to tinge each other.

 

[anemos]

 

[ianek]

>>I could go on with more connections to the lines
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Please, do it. It would be very interesting. If you put your argumentation more neatly we can discuss it.

 

[rodaki]

just shortly because I'm not trying to make any specific point here or draw far-ranging conclusions, just show-case how the connections we make don't have to be systematic or widely accepted by all -as long as they're helpful to us it should be fine . .

line 2: fish that does not further guests: baby Oedipus is taken in by Polibus and Merope, kings of Corinth, there is a seed of truth to be known but it is hidden away, Oedipus doesnot know it

line 3: there's no skin on his thighs and walking comes hard: years later some guy tells Oedipus that he was born from different parents. Polibus and Merope deny it, he goes to Delphi but his parents' true identity is not revealed to him, except for the fact that he's gonna kill his father and marry his mother, so deeply troubled decides to never go back. Instead turns towards Thebes, meets his real father and fights him over who's gonna pass first from the road they're both in

line 4: Oedipus kills his father and this is where the dark side of the oracle begins . . I don't think the spinx is that important (although you can see it in 44.4s fan yao, 57.4). Pestilence and the king's (by now) Oedipus' sense of heroics fit the barenness of the line I think

line 5: that for me is the line of all oracle appearances, culminating with prophet Tiresias' revealing of truth about Oedipus' identity

line 6: comes to meet with his horns sounds to me like the final scene of Oedipus' plucking his own eyes out and going to live like a beggar

that's more or less the analogy - or better, one of the analogies- I can see . . As I said already, I don't mean this as a universal or 'correct' meaning, neither as the better one. I think it's great to be able to draw these but not to read any more into them . . paraphrasing a common phrase: 'meaning is in the eye of the beholder' . .

 

[ianek]

>>Lise has an insight on 10.6 about how the footprints of the spirit of the dead appear in ashes and go full circle when the spirit is satisfied.
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We have a text (in russian) about the stories of Winnie-the-Pooh and how the correspond the Tarot cards. Third chapter correspond H10 or 5 of Pentacles.

http://hermenes.com/Homepage/Winnie_3.htm

Pooh an Piglet walks around a tree, chasing their own footprints, i.e. they are making full circle. Our interpretation is that they follow the spirit of Piglet's grandfather, 'Trespassers William'. He appeared in 100 acres forest after the board "Trespassers Will Be Prosecuted" were broken. It is the board which separates the world of living from the world of dead. It's absolutely amazing how Lise obtained this insight. She (or he, sorry don't know how to say) has powerful imagination. Perhaps, there are other insights, I would be glad if there is something else.

As for your conception of "obligations to the dead", there is a version that Oedipus's damnation related to the killing of the dragon Ismenios by Cadmus. So, it justifies your assumption in some way.

 

[ianek]

2 rodaki

Thank you. I like your way of thinking, though I disagree with your conclusion. I can argue my disagrement that your analogies are a bit too far. On such distances it's possible to identify to many different things. In other words, 64 is a rather big number and the more precision is needed. By the way something resonated at fifth line of your interpretation, but I find the correspondence with H10 more preferable.

 

[rodaki]

you're welcomed but I meant no conclusions . . ever since I stopped my interdisciplinary studies I let go of the need to come to conclusions and just kept the playing with ideas part of it . .

 

[pocossin]

It's absolutely amazing how Lise obtained this insight. She (or he, sorry don't know how to say) has powerful imagination. Perhaps, there are other insights, I would be glad if there is something else.

LiSe Heyboer's website:

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html

I agree. Her many insights are often amazing.

 

[pocossin]

that's more or less the analogy - or better, one of the analogies- I can see . . As I said already, I don't mean this as a universal or 'correct' meaning, neither as the better one. I think it's great to be able to draw these but not to read any more into them . . paraphrasing a common phrase: 'meaning is in the eye of the beholder' . .

I agree that the the mind can make associations between any two objects. An imaginative person could find aspects of Oedipus in each of the sixty four hexagrams. As Sakis Totlis (Do you know Sakis?) said in The True Eye of the Tiger, ". . . human imagination can use infinite ideas to match two given premises. So if we insist and are imaginative enough, eventually we will match even the most mismatching and irrelevant themes" (p.49).

But there are ways to test the validity of ideas. Objects exists in contexts, and we expect them to accord with context. A conjecture is predictive of consequences, and true conjectures can be built on and make a part of greater wholes. One of my unsubstantiated ideas is that the tiger of hexagram 10 is this one:


http://www.fengshuigate.com/qimancy.html

 

[elias]

As for your conception of "obligations to the dead", there is a version that Oedipus's damnation related to the killing of the dragon Ismenios by Cadmus.

There is equally a version that the real curse on the house was due to the introduction of buggery into Thebes by O's grandfather. Oedipus was merely acting out a cultural imperative reflective of a pre-patriarchic era when all power was invested in the Queen. One got to be king by killing the old king and marrying the queen, the "mother" of the city-state.

Oedipus limped due to having his ankles pierced as an infant. Back to 39 "Limping." No particular reason to think that the "skin on his thighs" was problematic, unless "thighs" are an euphemism for "genitals" as it is in Hebrew sacred lit. (Not that such an observation clarifies anything. But it's something I wonder about when I see that line.)

 

[rodaki]

I agree that the the mind can make associations between any two objects. An imaginative person could find aspects of Oedipus in each of the sixty four hexagrams. As Sakis Totlis (Do you know Sakis?) said in The True Eye of the Tiger, ". . . human imagination can use infinite ideas to match two given premises. So if we insist and are imaginative enough, eventually we will match even the most mismatching and irrelevant themes" (p.49).

But there are ways to test the validity of ideas. Objects exists in contexts, and we expect them to accord with context. A conjecture is predictive of consequences, and true conjectures can be built on and make a part of greater wholes. One of my unsubstantiated ideas is that the tiger of hexagram 10 is this one:


http://www.fengshuigate.com/qimancy.html

thanks for the comments. Im 100% with you on the matter of context, it makes me think of what is often said about questions, ie, that the question will shape, and in a way pre-determine the answers discovered.

This is where I come from -an avid (female) reader of native Greek mythology . .
From the perspective of Greek mythology, there is a recurrent theme of kings-fathers being hostile to the changes that get impregnated by mating (Uranus locked Gaia's children within the earth, Cronus devoured his own, Zeus did the same with Athena, etc, until we reach Laius).
There is also a theme that runs thru many tragedies, of an oracle that has predicted a turn of events that will cause doom (the old order will fall) . . the narrative from then on unravels in the efforts of the character to escape the fall predicted by the oracle by the use of human will (the struggle of culture v nature).
Thus, probably the most important aspect explored in the heroic figure is that of humans that come to meet with notions of power abused in an effort to escape the changes coming -trying too much to check what is beyond our control. The purging from this state (a catharsis) comes when the heroes stop taking charge and allow the change/oracle to happen (in 44's terms, when they stop trying to 'get hold of' the woman).
It's also a common theme that the dead will cling to the lives of the living to remind them of their duty to allow the change to happen -they aren't the ones directing the movement iow, they are also mere instruments.


the above is a rather standard approach of myths and the structure of tragedy and I think shows where I am coming from with the 44 analogy. Having said that, what I describe is a structure common in most tragedies but I have found myself being repeatedly reminded of Oedipus in reading into 44. It could be that this is not the most usual approach for others coming here from different perspectives but imho this shouldn't devalue it (or vice versa)

 

[pocossin]

But neither do I see Oedipus as dealing with obligations to the dead. To my eyes, Oedipus begins with a delphic oracle that a son will take over his father . .

Oh, I see. By 'Oedipus' I meant Oedipus as presented in the works of Sophocles. Sophocles (imo) focused on the importance of the dead. Greek culture in Sophocles' time was seething with innovation and losing its moorings in ancient tradition. There is wisdom in the grave because the dead are the bearers of tradition.