A system of I Ching - Tarot correspondences

[ilemacedonia]

I have used the correspondences given in the first link which Janek posted here and I would say from my experience that I found it useful but only in general meaning of the subject. Tarot cards gives another dimension to the Hexagrams but the approach and the spirit of the two is different to me. The Chinese Wisdom is more of the wu-wei type while the Hermetic wisdom of the Tarot is one of "undertaking magical action in order to change oneself in accordance to the Divine Providence". The IC is a kind of "Following the Tao in a wu wei way".
Keywords are similar - the actions are different.
Keywords are short descriptions of the meaning of the tarot card or the hexagram, but the Action is how that keyword is express, how that type of energy is flowing or the way in which is blocked. Incorporating the two in one is whole other issue of merging the east and the west. Merging the Chinese (East) wisdom with that of the West - something which is unnecessary in my opinion, they both have unique approaches to the growing of our inner selves and my opinion is that we should approach them in that manner.
In the essence All is One, but we - the people - have made this illusion of the 10.000 things and there for there're different Paths for going back into that oneness. It's good to know different paths, it's good to make correspondences, but the merging can bring confusion (though not in every man, I don't say that the merging is not possible but not necessary).
In other words, I would say that the "Spirit" of the two is different.

 

[bristolbuda]

Examples

10 coins-14
wheel of fortune -24
death-49
4 swords-33
3 coins-15
lovers-13
judgement-50
five swords-6
10 wands-28
8 cups-8
3 swords-18
emperor-10
devil -44
queen sword-54
queen cups-58
ace wands-16
hermit-19

I use a system using these as an example which produce
very accurate interprtations.All 64 hexigrams are used
i think the simple aproach works,for instance -5 swords
is conflict, dificult people.well 6 i ching is a quarrelsome
person.The devil ,has to be 44 what else could fit.

 

[ianek]

>>I have used the correspondences given in the first link which Janek posted here and I would say from my experience that I found it useful but only in general meaning of the subject. Tarot cards gives another dimension to the Hexagrams but the approach and the spirit of the two is different to me. The Chinese Wisdom is more of the wu-wei type while the Hermetic wisdom of the Tarot is one of "undertaking magical action in order to change oneself in accordance to the Divine Providence". The IC is a kind of "Following the Tao in a wu wei way".
__________________________________________________
Well, I found any arguing about general foundations of the correspondences for these two systems rather useless because arguments can not be compared and no conclusion can be deduced. The reasons why the correspondence between two systems can exist are presented and if you disagree with them you should reject them by pointing on any mistakes or weak points of argumentations. Let me briefly remind the main steps of consideration:
1. Any FULL mantic system divides the One into parts.
2. If the number of elemens equal for the systems there is mutually-unique correspondences (or resonances) between the elements of two systems.
3. 3. I Ching and Tarot have approx. equal number of elements.
4. Basing on general structure of Tarot, it’s possible to divide the deck into two parts 64+14.
5. From 2. we see, that the correspondences exist.


>> Keywords are similar - the actions are different.
_________________________________________________
If you acknowledge the similarities in keywords then you face a very complicated problem. First of all, the proposed system of correspondences is a logical system rather than a random pairings for cards and hexagrams. From all different correspondences
(76!/14! is around 10 to the 100th power) the part of systematic correspondences is extremely small. It means, that from statistical point of view, you say that the coincidences for keywords are so often that almost any random pairing of cards and hexs permits to establish more or less reasonable similarities between cards and keywords. But, certainly it’s not true, you can try yourself. From it follows that the similarities are not accidental and it’s more probable (statistically) that your understanding of “actions” and “Spirit” should be corrected (sorry fo personal remark).

 

[ianek]

>>The devil ,has to be 44 what else could fit.
___________________________________________
It’s second time when h44 appears, so let’s consider it more thoroughly.
64 is the 2 (binary opposition) to the 6th power. No wonder that many hexs have very clear erotic interpretations. In this case it’s obvious:
2 line – masturbation (it’s clear if we remember that it can be translated as “fish in hand” and “fish” is well-known phallic symbol);
3 line – some problems with erection;
4 line – masturbation is not possible;
5 line – clear yonic symbolism, some cure obtained;
6 line –erection is restored.
Perhaps, your assosiaton for this hex with XVI Major Arcanum “Devil” appears from uncovered symbolism of fifth line but it’s only hypothesis.


Hieroglyph for the name of h44 consists from two parts: “woman” and “ruler” (more literally it means “a mouth giving orders”). Such an image is very unusual in Chinese standards for woman’s social role and the oracle warns “not marry strong woman”. We can see that it’s not the Oedipus’s case – no strong woman appears in this story. Actually, there is another story for this hex 44. It’s “One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest”. The movie is very good but the book is excellent. Here we have situation which fits to h44. Strong woman, giving the orders, culmination sex scene with Billy Bibbit (5 line) and finally, electroshock treatment and McMurphy’s frontal lobotomy correspond to 6 line (“horns”). But the most interesting thing is clear visual resemblance of "Chief" Bromden to the man pictured on the corresponding Tarot card (7 of Pentacles). First, his spade is very like a mop, second, the color of skin of the man on card is slightly reddish as American Indians have. I am sure that Ken Kesey didn’t mean to remind us 7 of pentacles but archetypes have infninite power to manifest themselves.

 

[bradford]

>>The devil ,has to be 44 what else could fit.

She's not THAT powerful. In fact, the only thing powerful enough to suit the Devil card is human denial, ignorance and shortsightedness.

For 44 try the 8 of swords.

 

[ianek]

She's not THAT powerful.

Devil for 44 is not my choice. In the scheme 44 hex corresponds 7 of Pentacles and for Devil hex 29. If you remember how “The Devil” card looks like, you will see its correlation with 29.6 “Bound with cords and ropes”.

For 44 try the 8 of swords.

Sorry, but I disagree.
1. I don’t understand how blindfolded woman on the card (even with 2 swords) can be strong woman, having the power.
2. I suggested example (“One flew..”) which fits both 7 of Pentacles and Hex 44 simultaneously, making connection between these two archetypes from different systems. If you have any example which fit h44 and 8 of swords, please, tell me. It would be interesting to compare them. Or, you can reject my example, however it would be nice if you base your rejection somehow. But keep in mind that that correspondence between hex 44 and 7 of pentacles was not deduced from the mentioned literature work. The proposed scheme of correspondences has a definite logical structure and this example was found AFTER this scheme had obtained. From this point of view, the fact that main person of “One flew…” “Chief” Bromden has the same color of the face as the man on the card is amazing, in my opinion.

 

[sooo]

I do not believe a direct corollary exists between the Yi and Tarot, only vague similarities. Two entirely different symbolic systems. (sorry to be redundant but it bears repeating)

I also think it's a mistake to interpret the Devil card for evil or confuse it with its Christian symbolism, but instead perhaps more related to Pan or Maya. I view the Devil card as representing our own will and inner duality, drives and ambition. So, for a loose similarity, I'd liken it to 46.

 

[bradford]

Sorry, but I disagree.
1. I don’t understand how blindfolded woman on the card (even with 2 swords) can be strong woman, having the power.

This is because you haven't taken the time to understand either the Tarot or the Yijing.

 

[ianek]

I do not believe a direct corollary exists between the Yi and Tarot, only vague similarities. Two entirely different symbolic systems.

While we are talking about beliefs we are free in their choosing. If we want to base them we should to use thinking. I described a few steps argumentation why the correspondences between I Ching and Tarot do exists. Perhaps, you would not be offended if I say that from your belief and my argumentation I prefer argumentation.

I also think it's a mistake to interpret the Devil card for evil

You are absolutely right. I am not sure about Pan in this case (still thinking) but suppose that Tartar corresponds to “Devil” rather exactly.

So, for a loose similarity, I'd liken it to 46.

As before, it would be interesting if you base your assumption and find something which would fit to “Devil” and hex. 46.

 

[ianek]

This is because you haven't taken the time to understand either the Tarot or the Yijing.

Is that all that you can say about h44 or 8 of swords? Not much. Excuse me but I know your type of people very well. Perhaps you know something but it took so much effort from you that you are mistakenly sure that only you knows “the truth”. However, when you are asked to explain you can’t say anything more than empty words or offences. Actually, I think that origin of such a behavior is a lack of thinking skills. For example, in exact sciences such things are extremely rare because you need to train your mind before you can discuss complicated things. And nobody believes your statements if they can’t be checked.

 

[ianek]

PS. blindfolded woman with 2 swords is 2 of spades, of course. But 8 of spades also doesn't fit h44, in my opinion.

 

[Trojina]

I can't understand the need to have these precise correspondences....I mean why do they have to fit ? Why does one divination system have to fit another ? Can't they just be themselves ?

I've been familiar with both for many years yet can't say I find much usefulness in trying to superimpose one upon the other to make a perfect 'fit'. I can see broad links of course, as one could with anything on earth, since Yi includes all things on earth doesn't it...I mean one could say High Priestess linked to hex 2 yet while it shares things the High Priestess does not mean the same thing as hexagram 2.

If you find it deepens your practice to connect Yi with the Tarot thats good....but I don't personally think each Tarot card can be made to fit a hexagram. Feels like trying to put an elephant in a suitcase...or make a circle fit a square....or... you get the picture.

 

[rodaki]

I'm not sure whether ianek is that interested in really discussing or exchanging ideas though, it seems that his primary aim here is to present his reason and why it works (better) . .

I just realized that it reminded me of the attitude most research institutes expect their students to follow nowadays . .

 

[sooo]

While we are talking about beliefs we are free in their choosing. If we want to base them we should to use thinking. I described a few steps argumentation why the correspondences between I Ching and Tarot do exists. Perhaps, you would not be offended if I say that from your belief and my argumentation I prefer argumentation.

You are absolutely right. I am not sure about Pan in this case (still thinking) but suppose that Tartar corresponds to “Devil” rather exactly.

As before, it would be interesting if you base your assumption and find something which would fit to “Devil” and hex. 46.

Silly, I didn't mean belief as in religious or philosophical beliefs, I meant my conviction of understanding, i.e. my thought process. But I have to believe you already knew that.

Neither have I made assumptions, only loose association between the Devil card and hex 46; but again, this too I made very clear. I'm beginning to understand, though, your convolutions.

 

[bradford]

I can't believe someone just said I was lacking in thinking skills.

I can't understand the need to have these precise correspondences....I mean why do they have to fit ? Why does one divination system have to fit another ? Can't they just be themselves ?

I've explained in my books that there is no connection, especially not historical.
But there is a resonance that comes by way of both being systems of correlative thought, developed out of patterns based on numbers as conceptual metaphors that seem to have some cross-cultural universals, and both are subject to something called Portmanteau analysis (subject and predicate combined in a compound symbol (zhen & hui gua or number and suit). This is not built into the systems, but an overlay that may or may not be useful. It has helped me quite a bit. In ianek's case it's useless.

 

[ianek]

Silly, I didn't mean belief as in religious or philosophical beliefs, I meant my conviction of understanding, i.e. my thought process.

Perhaps, you will share with us the way how you get obtained the conclusion that ”direct corollary between the Yi and Tarot” doesn’t exists. Then we compare your argumentation with mine where I “prove” that the correspondences between I Ching Tarot do exist.

Neither have I made assumptions, only loose association between the Devil card and hex 46;

“Loose” enough to associate anything with anything? I am sorry but your vague associations is not very interesting for me.

 

[ianek]

I've explained in my books that there is no connection, especially not historical.

No one said that these systems have historical connection. I “proved” (in some sense) that the archetypical correspondences between I Ching and Tarot exist and you can test you thinking skills disproving it.

 

[ianek]

PS. As far as I understand you have the system of I Ching Tarot correspondences. You described it, bit explanation was too short. Perhaps, you have some web page with your system?

 

[bradford]

PS. As far as I understand you have the system of I Ching Tarot correspondences. You described it, bit explanation was too short. Perhaps, you have some web page with your system?

I'll repeat. My books are free to download from
http://www.hermetica.info

The system is described there, but there's a whole new book in process.
These are the page numbers printed on the pages, not those on Acrobat reader
Yijing, Vol 1, Part One, pp 54-55
Xiao Xiang Chapter, Introduction to Scales, pp 444-449
Index Keys in the Back index my system
Volume 2, Part Four
Correlative Thought, pp 4-7
Ban Xiang, the Half Images, pp 22-23
Page 44

 

[Sparhawk]

Perhaps, you will share with us the way how you get obtained the conclusion that ”direct corollary between the Yi and Tarot” doesn’t exists. Then we compare your argumentation with mine where I “prove” that the correspondences between I Ching Tarot do exist.

A couple of days ago I was corresponding with Ed Hacker (I Ching Bibliography, The I Ching Handbook), sharing some thoughts and theories and he had this to say which, although completely unrelated to the current conversation, was very interesting and apropos (the bold/underlines are mine):

Finding symmetry or order in a finite group of numbers is quite common, even when the numbers are selected at random. It has been proven that an order can be found (that is an algorithm) to generate any finite sequence of randomly selected numbers. Evolution has caused us to be very good at recognizing and finding patterns and orders. Many times these 'orders' are nothing more than the result of trying hundreds of variations until one hits upon an 'order'.

When I taught philosophy of science, I would illustrate this to my class by putting on my desk five or six objects that I had gathered from my pocket and my desk in my office: such things as a ruler, a paperclip, a pen, a penny, Scotch tape, a pocket calculator, etc. I pretended to arrange these items carefully in a row on the desk in front of the class. I really arranged them at random! I told them that I had arranged these objects in a certain order (this was a lie) and I wanted them to find this order. I mentioned that the order might have something to do with the material that made up these objects, the size of the objects, or the use of these objects, or the name of these objects, or some combination of these. I also mentioned that the order could be alphabetical by the first letter of the name or use of the object or by its second letter, or every second letter, etc. I allowed the class to talk among themselves.

The result was that the class always found an order!And sometimes more than one! I then congratulate them and tell them that I had arranged the objects at random. What I wanted them to learn was that finding an order in a sequence does not mean that this order was used to generate the sequence. Given enough patience and intelligence one can always find an order in just about anything.​

There's a humbling message there for those that feel "special" about finding a corresponding order in just about anything. "Your" order may not be the "one" order that puts all other orders to sleep...

 

[ianek]

I'll repeat. My books are free to download from
http://www.hermetica.info

Do you want me to read 600 pages just to find 64 correspondences? “That’s not fair, Mr. Zappa!” Yes, you pointed some pages, but I don’t like to read a book by parts. I think that I understand your system if you answer a few simple questions.
1. How do you exclude from Tarot deck 14 cards?
2.

Kun and Gen are obviously earth, Kan anf Dui water, Qian and Xun air and Li and Zhen fire. So where you have swords in my system you'll find either Qian or Xun. The numbers are in the lower primary or Zhen Gua position.

There are 28 hexs whicn contain Li OR Zhen trigram. If you suppose that they must be on the bottom (or on the top) then it will be 16 hexs. However, in tarot deck there are only 14 cards. And 14=10pip cards + 4 court cards while there 8 hex with Li (or Zhen) on the bottom. Please, explain how do you deal with these problems?

 

[bradford]

No more stew in your cauldron until you dump the thing out and clean it. It's gross.

 

[ianek]

Finding symmetry or order in a finite group of numbers is quite common, even when the numbers are selected at random. It has been proven that an order can be found (that is an algorithm) to generate any finite sequence of randomly selected numbers. Evolution has caused us to be very good at recognizing and finding patterns and orders. Many times these 'orders' are nothing more than the result of trying hundreds of variations until one hits upon an 'order'.

Yes, if we have sequences like 1,2,3 …98, 99 it’s very easy to write out formulae which correctly reproduce first 99 terms but it’s 100th element could be anything you like, not necessary 100. However, if we get experimental data of this kind we are almost sure that the next number will be 100. If we assume that there are the orders in the outer world then in this case we prefer simple formula a=n (basing on 99 measurements), though it can’t be proven exactly.

When I taught philosophy of science, I would illustrate this to my class by putting on my desk five or six objects that I had gathered from my pocket and my desk in my office: such things as a ruler, a paperclip, a pen, a penny, Scotch tape, a pocket calculator, etc. I pretended to arrange these items carefully in a row on the desk in front of the class. I really arranged them at random! I told them that I had arranged these objects in a certain order (this was a lie) and I wanted them to find this order. I mentioned that the order might have something to do with the material that made up these objects, the size of the objects, or the use of these objects, or the name of these objects, or some combination of these. I also mentioned that the order could be alphabetical by the first letter of the name or use of the object or by its second letter, or every second letter, etc. I allowed the class to talk among themselves.

The result was that the class always found an order!And sometimes more than one! I then congratulate them and tell them that I had arranged the objects at random. What I wanted them to learn was that finding an order in a sequence does not mean that this order was used to generate the sequence. Given enough patience and intelligence one can always find an order in just about anything.

The example is interesting however, the conclusion is wrong in general case. If the number or things is much more, like 64, then I doubt that any order can be found if the thing are placed randomly. You can take first 50 numbers for expression for any transcendental number, like Pi, and work out any order for these numbers. I bet you would fail in this attempt. But if you take only 5 numbers it would be relatively simple.

But let me stress two important differences between this example and discussed system.
1. The mantic systems (I Ching and Tarot) are full systems while there are no full set of “things”.
2. Proposed system exploits internal orders embedded in I Ching and Tarot (common order of hexs and 5 suits structure of Tarot). In the above example there was no order in the set of things.
3. It’s important to differ “thing” and “archetypes”.

There's a humbling message there for those that feel "special" about finding a corresponding order in just about anything. "Your" order may not be the "one" order that puts all other orders to sleep...

I suggested a way to compare different orders. Any cultural work became well-know if it is manifest archetype clear because only in this case it resonates with collective unconsciousness soundly. So, the correspondences can be checked by presenting such works which fits both elements of two systems. (Actually, there is a way to compare archetypes themselves but it takes rather refined symbolical perception which is hardly achieved by most without training.)

 

[Sparhawk]

The example is interesting however, the conclusion is wrong in general case. If the number or things is much more, like 64, then I doubt that any order can be found if the thing are placed randomly. You can take first 50 numbers for expression for any transcendental number, like Pi, and work out any order for these numbers. I bet you would fail in this attempt. But if you take only 5 numbers it would be relatively simple.

The point of that example, which should need no further explanation nor justifying examples of any kind, is that most found "orders" are as "subjective" as anything. Perhaps even more so, it that were possible, when we are dealing with metaphysical concepts.

 

[ianek]

No more stew in your cauldron until you dump the thing out and clean it. It's gross.

Please, stop talking nonsense. I gave you chance to describe your system to compare it with discussed here. The idea of identification two trigrams with on suit is the first what comes in mind. However, it produces rather ugly system of correspondences for combinatorical reasons.
I asked you just to make this obvious fact clear.
Also I’ve seen a few examples for correspondences from your system and, to be honest, find them not good. There are no traces in H44 for blindfolded woman from 8 of Swords who patiently waits while her fate decided and it’s not strong woman from h44. I suggest you to base this correspondences, hoping that you can say something reasonable. You declined. From my side, I suggest an literature example which fits both h44 and 7 of pentacles. You also avoided discussion when correspondence between h10 and 5 of pentacles was discussed – you didn’t present any reasoning. More than that, I suggest you to pick up a good example from your system and compare it with I present here, but you declined again! As you systematically reject any attempts of comparing the systems I draw a conclusion that you system does not worth considering.

 

[ianek]

The point of that example, which should need no further explanation nor justifying examples examples of any kind, is that most found "orders" are as "subjective" as anything.

You are completely wrong. If a statement correct when parameter equals 5 there is no way that the same statement is correct when parameter is 6. Your example is (perhaps) correct when the number of things is 5 but there are absolutely no reasons why it will be correct when the number of things is 64.

 

[Sparhawk]

OK, if you say so...

Much bigger fish to fry but I think I've made my point about subjectivity and you helped enormously to the task.

 

[bradford]

Please, stop talking nonsense. I gave you chance to describe your system to compare it with discussed here. The idea of identification two trigrams with on suit is the first what comes in mind. However, it produces rather ugly system of correspondences for combinatorical reasons.

Ianek
I answered all of your questions early on in this thread, and in post 17 especially. You chose to ignore this. This is where we get the word Ignorance.
I answered your latest question about a website just above, with reference to about 8 pages of text. Instead of going there you whined about reading 600 pages and made up excuses.
I have no doubt now that you are going to remain a fool for the rest of your studies here.

 

[ianek]

I answered all of your questions early on in this thread, and in post 17 especially. You chose to ignore this.

That’s not true. I am citing you: “So where you have swords in my system you'll find either Qian or Xun. ” However, there are 28 hexs with Qian or Xun but only 14 cards with the swords.
That’s why I asked an explanation.

I answered your latest question about a website just above, with reference to about 8 pages of text.

Not true again. I am citing you: “Yijing, Vol 1, Part One, pp 54-55
Xiao Xiang Chapter, Introduction to Scales, pp 444-449
Index Keys in the Back index my system
Volume 2, Part Four
Correlative Thought, pp 4-7
Ban Xiang, the Half Images, pp 22-23
Page 44”.
Let’s count: 2+6+index keys+4+2+1=15+ index keys >= 16 pages. That’s too many for one system, so I asked you to answer a few simple questions. It would be enough for me to reconstruct your scheme. But you waste our time in stupid altercations.
If you want that somebody discusses your system it’s your obligation to present it in convenient form.

I have no doubt now that you are going to remain a fool for the rest of your studies here.

These are too presumptuous words for a person who even can’t add natural numbers correctly.

 

[CarolynL]

Hello.

http://hermenes.com/Homepage/ichintaro_en.htm

Here you can find a system of correspondences between the I Ching and Tarot. These systems have absolutely different origins but you can see yourselves how they correspond each other. Keeping in mind the correspondences you can enrich your understanding of hexagrams and cards.

It’s not there anymore…..does anyone know of an alternative chart that can be found or where that one originated? I’ve used it for many years and am struggling to find another like it. Any suggestions would be gratefully received. Carolyn