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ginnie

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I asked Yi regarding someone: "Is he afflicted with ADD?"

ADD or ADHD is Attention Deficit Disorder. Mainly children -- and other intense or hyperactive individuals -- are diagnosed with this disorder in this country based on their impulsive behavior, speaking out in inappropriate ways, or not being able to sit still.

I read a book on ADD and I thought that ADD overlapped with other disorders of the nervous system. There is still controversy about whether or not afflicted individuals are simply behaving badly --

But with so much attention focused these days on the brain, many studies have shown that the brains of these individuals are different and are functioning differently. Parts of their brains are almost 'asleep,' and that is why they are said to benefit from taking stimulant medication, like Ritalin. This allows the sleepy parts of the brain to become more coordinated with the other parts of the brain. Anyway, that is the theory behind why Ritalin 'works.'

Yi responded: 22.2 > 26.

This answer sheds more light for me on the nature of hex 22. Hexagram 22 shows a fire at the foot of a mountain. The fire illuminates the patterns of all around it, albeit within a small radius. Yes, I am attempting to illuminate the pattern of this individual's unlikeable behavior.

Reading the various translations and commentaries, the meanings seem to be far-ranging. 22.2 could mean: 'Do not judge by appearances.'

Yes, I noticed that by definition a diagnosis of ADD seems to be based on outward behavior alone. One really has to look at the person inside.

It could be saying that the subject is being influenced by others and acting as a follower. That is, what I am seeing are stress-induced reactions.

Karcher added an entirely different interpretation when he said 'this is associating with the above and rising.' It is a boy letting his beard grow before initiation into manhood. 'Adorn yourself with elegance and patience.'

Whincup says: 'A superficial beautification makes him more attractive.'

So I had the thought that saying someone with an unlikeable personality has ADD is definitely a refinement over calling him CRAZY.

I guess it's not my place to call anybody anything. But my intention is to help this person by getting a handle on some of this. Maybe I shouldn't even be involved with helping him, but that's another question, isn't it ...

Any thoughts on this?
 

jilt

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In the first place, I think that those very labeling terms like add are only a referring to a symptom. The 2nd line of 22 is hinting to that, the appearance. It can be a symptom of anything, of just being nervous. Or, as so many children in our society, being loaded with marketing-appeal that deviously works on their pre-mature sex, and then behaving as they think is expected from them because the commercial and the clip tells them so. Then they get nervous and out of your mind all the time.
Also. when you are doing things you do not like at all: attention deficit will be the result. Many jobs evoke it. Plainly speaking, it is one of the symptoms of alienation.
And of course the brain will adapt and tune to the expected or desired behaviour and produce the right kind of neurotransmitters that can be blocked ore stimulated by ritalin or prozac or cocaine or cannabis. That is big busyness. I heard that almost 20% of people in the western world is taking some kind of neuro-drug from the mighty pharmaceutical industry. So, I'm saying that it is desired behaviour because children (and people in general) "out of their mind" are easy vitims for commercials and dealers. They are hooked for the rest of their life.
So, I think add is mainly a respons to the demands of society, greed and dealers.
Fear from behaving in a patterns that is expected but does not fit the stage of development makes nervous.
 
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ginnie

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Burt, what a great summary of ADD.

I agree with you that everybody is nervous -- how could we not be nervous? It's the insane times we're living in. How nervous we are is only a matter of degree.

There are a lot of communication problems with nervous people, whether they have been diagnosed with ADD or not. This is really a result of alienation, as you said. For example, even if they adore someone, nervous people still may not know how to speak kindly and often take a sarcastic or insulting tone. This is because they do not listen well and often just jump in with something that doesn't make much sense. Or even switch the topic without hearing what the first speaker said.

So, I'm thinking the 22.2 is a reflection of that: the subject of my inquiry really needs to improve his communication skills. I think the I Ching may be indicating that this particular person's speech needs to become more substantial and meaningful. There are many useful communication skills taught these days. When I was going to school, there was no subject "Communication." Nowadays people can improve their communications skills by taking a course at a local school of some kind.

A couple of times I have gotten 22.2 regarding a short piece of writing. So I'm pretty confident it has something to do with communicating well.
 

jilt

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22.2 is always about communication, about making an image, appearance. When people are making an appearance, make an image acoording the ideal they identify with, it is communication. They want to tell that they are the ideal, are more (as perceived by them) then they are. That makes nervous, gives complications, as "show off" always does. I think the expression is "trying to live up on an image", words like "Idol" are keywords for understanding.
By taking the symbold of the idol they hope magically to be like the idol. These things are of course nothing but ornaments, they have no magic power at all, or perhaps only in a limited scene. Very totemistic indeed.
I was thinking why 22.2 is changing in 26? Because of the boasting aspect?
 
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sooo

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Any thoughts on this?

Chicks dig rebels. In high school the guys who can grow facial hair are considered tougher, more manly. Only half joking.

I agree when Bert says ADD is more of a symptom than a real diagnosis, and even at that, it's not a clear cut and easy diagnosis, although I do think much of today's cultures tend to herd individuals with a wide variety of emotional and/or learning challenges into the same medical therapies of Ritalin etc.

But there are more ways than drugs (prescribed or otherwise) to make neurological peptide/receptor networking connections, which previously may not have functioned well. There's caring, training and conditioning the mind, and I think this from where your 26 comes from: corralling and redirecting that energy into something personally rewarding, other than by gaining attention by being disruptive and self-centered, and possibly self-destructive.
 
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jilt

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But there are more ways than drugs (prescribed or otherwise) to make neurological peptide/receptor networking connections, which previously may not have functioned well. There's caring, training and conditioning the mind, and I think this from where your 26 comes from: corralling and redirecting that energy into something personally rewarding, other than by gaining attention by being disruptive and self-centered, and possibly self-destructive.
of course, you're right, how could I miss that, Or is boasting also the other side of this story?
the old ways you mean?:) I cannot agree more. Add needs training on concentration, perhaps some diet (less refined sugers, olive oil, no burgers, chips and less meat) and some disciplne. Big powers like greed, sex, minority-complex, fear etc. need to be tamed.
 
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sooo

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Have you (anyone) or has someone close to you ever experienced extreme difficulty reading a paragraph, trying over and over, trying harder, and still having no clue what's it's saying, as though it's another language?

I have, and so has my youngest son. "Try harder" is the most frustrating thing to hear. It can make you give up entirely, because what the teachers and parents, who say that, aren't getting, is that the lad or lass really is trying. Something is in the way. It isn't always general intelligence, but it can be very selective or specialized intelligence.

It comes down to interest. The shut off valve is usually boredom. Reasons can be numerous, many ways to spoil a child, being too gentle or strict.

Also consider, maybe there is something entirely legitimate going on in that person’s soul, sending red flags to their conscience in what they see around them, as being considered normal and acceptable.

Taking the road less traveled as a kid is confusing and lonely, even more so than for those who can simply dive right into the river and go with the flow and fit in.

Add needs training on concentration, perhaps some diet (less refined sugars, olive oil, no burgers, chips and less meat) and some discipline. Big powers like greed, sex, minority-complex, fear etc. need to be tamed.

Diet is a great place to make initial adjustments, or health in general, totally agree. If that becomes a focusing point, things like cigarettes and whatever gateways, practically fall away on their own. They get in the way of their aspiration. But first they must have one.

Even limits require limits, and sex is a fact of life. Last thing we need is another Victorian era. It's a question of how to balance satisfaction seeking. If a kid is happier abstaining, they will abstain because they want to defer it until they become further developed in other ways.

But let’s not kid ourselves, it's all about gratification, immediate or deferred. In that sense, deferred gratification is a finer grade of greed. And, it’s also a matter of how one defines fine, This thing, referred to as enlightenment, is simply deferred and redirected greed. Maybe that’s the stuff that could gain some ADD kid’s attention.
 

ginnie

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Bert, when you said 'idol' did you mean something like hero worship? Young boys usually worship heroes.

In many settings men are supposed to have shaved in the morning and not come to work with beards. These days it is considered fashionable to have a small growth of chin hairs. These variations are due to social trends. So currently it's okay even in business offices for guys to show up unshaven.

Isn't the point to go along with the majority, because by complying the young man demonstrates that he doesn't consider himself different from the others? The rebellious boy becomes a man. I now see why Karcher wrote what he did for this line.

People with ADD and hyperactivity seem more immature than they should be for their age.
 

rodaki

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Ginnie, I think you got a wonderful answer . . 22 has constantly been coming up in my questions about my sister and she too suffers from neurological afflictions -although quite different from ADD.
Imho, the fire beneath mountain shows only the surface when we situate it on the outside but does a whole lot of work if we place it inside the mountain; connecting illuminations within a steady hard exterior, it could be an image of the brain . . but besides the literal take, fire within can speak about a process of self-cultivation or self healing, working within but not necessarily showing through. For example, I've often been upset with my sister, cause -as Bruce mentioned- I think she should be doing more, trying more . . but the truth is, I don't have the slightest idea of how things are for her on the inside, I mostly see what comes out, which is (like hair on face) rather superfacial (;)) . . . the biggest lesson I've been learning with her is taking a hold and taming my own expectations of what 'ought to be' for her -and in the process figure out why I needed to encourage her or help her see what I knew was right instead of seeing myself what is right for her and how she might actually need me . .

I agree with what's been said about how cases like ADD could hide more than what the name reveals -only part of the whole image. For myself, I exhibit traits of Asperger's but clustering and naming some of my characteristics has been only a step in understanding myself better. It was really interesting seeing how these very same things that are aspie traits in one system, are one of many manifestations of astrological aspects in my chart in another system, the outcome of very specific hereditary and environmental influences in another or enmeshed symptoms of passing physiological conditions in another and in the end, just characteristic evidence of . . . me :) What I'm trying to say is that it takes a whole more thorough and personal approach in order to understand why anyone behaves the way they do instead of tagging them the name of a neurological category, and that we usually stop at the surface when things are way more complicated than what we can take in at a glance . .

phewww . . ok, now that I've said all that :rolleyes: (excuse the mini-rant) . . Ginnie if I have this right, you're wondering how to help this person :bows:. In my experience, the best way to help them is by figuring out the degree of openness your relation to him allows and then, within those limits, just talk to him, share your thoughts with him, the things that might annoy or upset you or just express your interest with no condescension or 'caretaker's attitude'

Wilhelm's comments on the line say:

"The beard (ADD symptoms) is a superfluous ornament. To devote care to it for its own sake, without regard for the inner content of which it is an ornament, would bespeak a certain vanity."

with all due respect, I think the most superficial thing in approaching anyone is that assumption-making part in all of us and it is this that must be the toughest one to tame too :eek:
 
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sooo

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People with ADD and hyperactivity seem more immature than they should be for their age.

I think that's probably a correct assessment. However, from the adhd perspective, everyone else is acting too rigid and slow. If it becomes a test of wills, well, that could go either way, depending upon the skill and perseverance of the mature one, and the stubborn will of the immature one. That's why I named "care" as the first line of approach. Care can break down that barrier as nothing else can. But the immature must not learn to lean on the mature one for ongoing care. They must learn how to create it themselves.
 

ginnie

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It was really interesting .. manifestations of astrological aspects in my chart ... the outcome of very specific hereditary and environmental influences ... enmeshed symptoms of passing physiological conditions ...in the end, just characteristic evidence of . . . me :)

Yes, thank you for writing this. Astrology, heredity, environmental influences -- all coming together.

The person I am speaking of says, "I don't have any communication problems. I can talk to anyone."

Then he'll add with that characteristic twist, "You're the one with the communication problems."

Now they are saying people like this have ADD.

Ginnie if I have this right, you're wondering how to help this person :bows:. In my experience, the best way to help them is by figuring out the degree of openness your relation to him allows and then, within those limits, just talk to him, share your thoughts with him, the things that might annoy or upset you or just express your interest with no condescension or 'caretaker's attitude'

Yes, I'm trying to figure out how to help this person. You are exactly right about that.

I have only just begun to reject that caretaker role and share my true reactions. Maybe he is beginning to realize that he has contributed to anger and has contributed to anxiety.

But -- can such a person ever be helped?

I am wondering if I ought to insist that he enroll in a communications course. He doesn't want to see anybody for testing. I am thinking that if a teacher and fellow class members gave him objective feedback about how he communicates, then he might see the light.
 

rodaki

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'can such a person ever be helped?'

maybe this is not about helping them, especially if they don't ask for it, but about asking ourselves how we can help ourselves handle the situation that troubles us; this always seems to work better for me -me I can control, others I can't in truth and I don't even want to . .

Again, I don't know your relation to that person Ginnie or the extend of the problems you are facing, but you might have to accept that you will just agree to disagree on what is the most rewarding way of communicating and try to take it from there . . maybe try to create a new common ground, what will make sense to the both of you? . . What I've realized trying to find common ground with people around me though is that 'caring' does not always mean 'taking care of', we may care for people without feeling the need to take care of them or have them take care of us . . Still, it's helps to acknowledge that what's right for me might be completely wrong for someone else and vice versa and both sides need to be respected even when -or, especially when- they cannot be bridged . .

wishing you all the best!!
 

ginnie

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maybe try to create a new common ground, what will make sense to the both of you?

Thank you so much, Rodaki. This is really helpful.

Maybe all I am called upon to do is forgive and look beyond what I see as offensive. And get on with my own life.
 
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ginnie

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I asked Yi regarding someone: "Is he afflicted with ADD?"... speaking out in inappropriate ways, or not being able to sit still...Yi responded: 22.2 > 26.

I now think Yi was giving me the outward sign or symptom of the disorder now called ADD. That is, looking at it from the outside, it appears that the person is not speaking in an appropriate manner.

So I asked: What is the source of his antisocial speech? Yi responded: 39.4 > 31.

In hexagram 39, one cannot see one's way forward or backward. As Whincup says, 'Going forward, he stumbles. Drawing back is the same. There is no escape.'

Karcher says: 'This means articulating the center. In Great Difficulties, partners come.' As Blofled points out, this line is suitably placed and possesses solidity, so 'those coming will forge useful connections.'

Therefore, it would seem to be useful for the subject of this line to articulate the center -- to speak out, even if what they say seems antisocial to other people. The person is stuck and his speech indicates that he's stuck. Therefore, how 'inappropriate' can such speech really be? It's good to see beyond or see through such labeling words ...
 

ginnie

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What can I do to help him?

Yi responded 33.3.5 > 35.

33.3 is the 'servants and concubines' line. I think it is important never to abandon those we are responsible for, and that's what this line means to me. One is advised to nourish and tolerate anyone who we perceive to be weaker and/or dependent.

33.5 -- 'an elegant withdrawal' -- is an interesting line. Sometimes I have lost all sense of what it could possibly mean. In fact the various translations give opposite advice.

33.5 changes to 56, Stranger in a Strange Land/Traveling. The two who were entangled are no longer entangled. As Cleary says: 'Both handle themselves with balance and correctness. Their intentions and behavior are balanced and upright.' R.L.Wang adds: 'Do not be drawn into irrelevant discussions or considerations concerning your decision.' In other words, this retreat is both friendly and firm.

In other words, it's best to withdraw from conflict. I think this is Yi's point, over and over again. Conflict is to be avoided. Sometimes it means to physically go away, but often it just means to withdraw from conflict.

Someone also wrote someplace that drawing hex 33 is an indication of exhaustion. I don't deny it. 'Withdrawal is a time of exhaustion. If you handle it well, it will become serene. Then it benefits everyone.'

Sounds like the original win-win solution ...
 

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