...life can be translucent

Menu

Again

candida

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
112
Reaction score
0
Hey gang, how are ya all?
I asked Ching, "Will I ever see--again?" and received hex 30 (quite often this week)line 6th
I haven't a clue about this one. I would appreciate any answers. thnx
Is this hopeful or not?
 

joang

visitor
Joined
Nov 24, 1971
Messages
213
Reaction score
0
Dear Candida:
In "The Everyday I Ching," Sarah Denning calls hexagram 30 "Shedding Light on Things." She says:

Acceptance is the great lesson of this situation. This does not mean simply putting up with things. What it does involve is facing all the facts. The more willing you are to accept the reality of the matter, the better your chances of seeing the whole picture. This will lead you to the truth about what is happening. Once you have a clear and unprejudiced view of things, you cannot be taken in or side-tracked by irrelevant considerations. The way to handle the issue will then become clear. On the other hand, if you simply react emotionally to the situation, your views will be very one-sided. In that state of mind you are unlikely to act in the most constructive way.

To that, Candida, I would simply add, when you feel you are ready to seek the unvarnished truth, do your best to phrase your questions in such a way that they go to the heart of the matter. Asking questions like, "Will I ever see him again" is begging for hope and ambiguity. "Ever" means the remainder of your lifetime and must account for all the possible variables that might occur during that time span. That is a bit much even for the Yi, imo. To "see him again" would include accidentally crossing paths with him at an airport terminal, for example, or catching a glimpse of him getting into a taxi. That of course is not what you really want to know, or what you want to spend your life waiting for. Do you want to know how he feels about you NOW? If you do, then simply ask that question.

Namaste,
Joan
 

candida

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
112
Reaction score
0
Hi Joan, I welcome your insight on this matter because I can't even begin to think I know much about Yi's answers(to decipher them; however, I am slowly learning. I have seen postings here where some have asked about the future
I don't use ouija boards, but how is I Ching any different then ouija boards or taro cards?
Tatiana
 

joang

visitor
Joined
Nov 24, 1971
Messages
213
Reaction score
0
Hi, Tatiana. That is a pretty name.

Perhaps I didn't make myself as clear as I thought I did. :cool: Of course we can ask the Yi about the future, and most of the time that's what we do. But I surmised from all that you have said before, that what you really want to know is not whether you will merely "see him again", but whether there is any chance your special relationship with him will resume. It just seems obvious to me that the answer to that really hinges on how he feels about you now, not how he felt before. His shabby treatment of you, leaving without so much as a phone call or letter and without recommending another physician to take his place (which he should have done), suggests the possibility that he has closed the door on your friendship. I could be wrong, of course, so best you ask the Yi if you want to know the truth.

Namaste,
Joan
 

candida

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
112
Reaction score
0
Hi Joan,

Thanks for the complement about my name. Joan also is a lovely name; I haven't heard it very often though and I think that makes it all the more lovely as a rarity. One gets tired of all the new names people are naming their babies. I think if I hear another newborn with the name of Matthew, please gag me with a spoon lol!
I did ask Yi the main Q. which is bothering me,(as you suggested
Q: What are his current feelings for me if any?
A: 19-- ist,4th, 6th
the overall primary is very positive sounding but I am wondering two things. In hex 19 ist line it states" shows subject advancing in company with subject of the second line", Well, my Q: is how can this be when I am no longer in contact with him? Second Q: In referring hex it talks about a tail that gets immersed, and when its tail gets in the water, no hope. Does this refer to the fact that after completion means the relationship is over? or is this referring to the fact that the fox getting his tail immersed and no way out
might mean he really does care for me(I've gotten the abyss oftentimes before) and there is no way out for his feelings to be shown to me? Or he is hopelessly in love with me?
Thanks for your great input Joan. By the way, do you live in the US or Britain? just curious
Tatiana
 

joang

visitor
Joined
Nov 24, 1971
Messages
213
Reaction score
0
WOW,Tatiana!

I am glad I said I could be wrong, because if you got 19 in answer to that question, I certainly was wrong. This is a very favorable hexagram, but there are some cautionary statements you need to keep in mind. The same goes for hexagram 64, which warns you to move cautiously like a fox over ice.

It appears that he shares your desire to make contact, and that he will make an approach, possibly soon after the winter solstice. A Christmas card maybe? Sorry, I don't see anything here to indicate that he is madly in love with you. 19 speaks only of caring, teaching, and condescension. In W/B it says "This symbolizes the approach and condescension of the man of higher position to those beneath him." I know that is not what you hoped for, but it sure is a whole lot better than I thought it would be. That's all I have time to say now. Gotta go.

Namaste,
Joan

PS: I live in PA, same as you. :cool:
 

candida

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
112
Reaction score
0
Joan,
I'm glad you are helping me with these readings cause as I've said before, I have a learning disability (OCD)which manifests it's self by
making hard things to learn easy, and easy things very hard, a dichotomy perhaps?
Anyhoo, 19 is so appropriate because the doctor did reject me(as well as all the others)and it seems as you said before, in a very shabby way.
The condescension must be the fact that he is a doctor, a professional and I just a patient and that he doesn't have to explain himself. The first time doc left his patients abruptly(a yr. ago to move to another town)I asked him that if this same thing happened again(his abrupt moving) would he please tell me beforehand? The only reply I got last year was "I would have stayed in ----, but" and left the subject drop.
Yeah, you're right, he really doesn't love me at all; and how could he really when we never had a physically active relationship? Most likely he likes me as a good friend(he told me he liked me very much).
I was surprized to learn you're from PA Joan. Do you live near Meadville?
 

chrislofting

visitor
Joined
Nov 19, 1971
Messages
394
Reaction score
0
Hi Joan, Tatiana,

Joan wrote:
>
> By Joang (Joang) on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 05:27 am:
>
> WOW,Tatiana!
>
> I am glad I said I could be wrong, because if you got 19 in
> answer to that question, I certainly was wrong. This is a
> very favorable hexagram, but there are some cautionary
> statements you need to keep in mind. The same goes for
> hexagram 64, which warns you to move cautiously like a fox
> over ice.
>
> It appears that he shares your desire to make contact, and
> that he will make an approach, possibly soon after the
> winter solstice. A Christmas card maybe? Sorry, I don't
> see anything here to indicate that he is madly in love with
> you. 19 speaks only of caring, teaching, and condescension.
> In W/B it says "This symbolizes the approach and
> condescension of the man of higher position to those beneath
> him." I know that is not what you hoped for, but it sure is
> a whole lot better than I thought it would be. That's all I
> have time to say now. Gotta go.
>

the 'change' of 19 to 64 can reflect a warning where the archetypal focus of 19 is 'corrupted' due to local conditions to take-on characteristics reflected in 64.

19 covers both the low approaching the high as well as the high deferring to the low. The generic vibe is on integration and the lessening of hierarchy, as compared to the local exaggeration of 19, hexagram 10, where position in the hierarchy is important (as in keeping to that position/path through conduct/treading) and so a focus more differentiating.

In the binary sequence of the I Ching all hexagrams with a base trigram of lake form a sequence, an octet, identifiable using the traditional sequence numbers (as given in W/B etc) of 19, 41, 60, 61, 54, 38, 58, 10) the dynamics within this local sequence are the SAME as the dynamics of the global sequence of the binary ordering of hexagrams.

Just as hexagrams 01 and 02 at the global level of the whole of the binary sequence reflect 'opposites' (or more so complements of integrating (yin) / differentiating (yang)) so this relationship is reflected all the way 'down' to PAIRS of hexagrams (as in the above sequence where 19 integrates, 41 differentiates, 60 integrates, 61 differentiates etc etc AND across the octet 19 'opposes' 10, 41 'opposes' 58', etc etc! There is a LOT of information packed into each octet.)

Hexagram 19 pairs here with hexagram 41 which also deals with 'mixing' of low/high in the form of concentration or distillation of 'something'. The main difference is that 41 focus on 'purity' reflects differentiation as the required result, whereas 19 reflects integration as the required result. In 41 the distillation process can fail and so you get a literal 'decrease', a failure in the distillation process.

Thus the overall archetype of 19 reflects the core focus in the relationship, as issue of deference by A and a proactive attitude by B to approach A 'without fear'. The BASE trigram is focused on cooperative exchange, on self-reflection both literally (as in promote onself, one's 'sameness' with others through reflecting others) as well as metaphorically (as in 'look' at onself, analyse 'in here' etc)

If we exaggerate the line-change activity in the 19 then we are moving AWAY from the archetype. A change into 64 warns that the situation is 'not correct', a 'mis-sequencing' of events (as in the traditional comment of a fox getting its tail wet) is/has occured and so moving one away from the expression of the archetype. The line change as such serves as an indicator of the generic form of the distraction.

All of that said, the change of 19 to 64 can also reflect a more positive outlook where the change reflects movement into a state of remaining open for all opportunities and as such NOT closing things too soon. IOW a preparedness to approach the 'high' sets-off a chain of events filled with potentials and one must remain open to detecting those potentials. This from of change is transcending where 64 REPLACES 19.

These two types of change reflect the main expressions of our brain/minds in dealing with reality. One form is transforming with a focus on integrating with the context and as such avoiding change outside local adaptations to the natural dynamics, the nature cycle, of the context.

The transformation form of change reflects 'shape shifting' where the core, the archetype, is constant but the exterior is forced to change through reflecting the context eliciting responses to stimuli, responses (and stimuli) that are LOCAL and so if allowed to continue can take one away from the expression of the archetype, the 'true' core. This is the realm of the monkey-mind, it distracts such that discipline is required to remain on the 'correct' path.

(we get into 'phase transitions' etc where water is water but can appear as ice, liquid, or steam depending on context - its 'water-nature' is constant, its expression differs)

The other form is to transcend a situation, to escape from an existing context either by (a) backing away from this context (as in 'ANYTHING is better than this!') - a reactive approach where you can back into a context that could be worse in the long run, or (b) a more proactive approach of intentionally moving into a new context ('the grass is greener') OR asserting one's own context as THE context. The INITIAL steps here are all posititive as in definite benefit or an anticipated benefit.

The transcending form of change changes the core, there is no 'going back' - thus lead into gold, or sperm+egg into a human being.

Chris.
 

candida

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
112
Reaction score
0
Greetings Chris,
My goodness are you a "brainiac" or what?
Your input is always enjoyable to read even if I or some others cannot even fathom it. lol Although, many can.
Chris, are you a mathematician, a scientist, etc.?
Did Einstein ever dabble or speak of the I Ching like Jung did? curiosity on my part.
In one sentence you said" This is the realm of the monkey mind" I suppose you were comparing human thinking to that of primates? The reason I ask this is I have the simian line found in my left hand(where head and heart line totally intercept). Have been told that this line is indicative of imbeciles and or geniouses. don't know because I am just an average joe. Although, I couldn't tell time until I was 12 yrs of age, couldn't tell how to cross at the light at the intersection cause I couldn't derive the significance of the red, green and yellow. This kind of thing went on and on in everything I tried to learn. It seemed to be a form of dyslexia but I could read on a level much higher than kids my own age. Being able to ascertain the meaning of I Ching hexes and the postings of many of the people here is getting to be kinda fun for me because its like a puzzle that you can take away pieces of the whole and intertwine them. Hope I make some sense to ya all. Peace, Tatiana
 

chrislofting

visitor
Joined
Nov 19, 1971
Messages
394
Reaction score
0
Hi Tatiana,

you wrote:
>
> Greetings Chris,
> My goodness are you a "brainiac" or what?
> Your input is always enjoyable to read even if I or some
> others cannot even fathom it. lol Although, many can.
> Chris, are you a mathematician, a scientist, etc.?

analyst/programmer so I have a science 'bias' but prior to that I worked as a musician etc and so also have an 'arts' bias ;-)

> Did Einstein ever dabble or speak of the I Ching like Jung
> did? curiosity on my part.

not that I know of, although one of his contempories, Bohr, used the Tao symbol to explain a concept in Physics so Einstein would have been aware of these things (and another physicist known to Einstein, Wolfgang Pauli, did some work with Jung)

> In one sentence you said" This is the realm of the monkey
> mind" I suppose you were comparing human thinking to that of
> primates?

:) no. the term reflects to a concept in taoism etc where the 'monkey mind' is that little voice in one's head that can be 'distracting', can distort one's focus away from what one is supposed to be focused-upon. here is a Google link to pages re monkey mind:

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q="monkey+mind"&btnG=Google+Search&meta=



> Being able to ascertain the meaning of I Ching
> hexes and the postings of many of the people here is getting
> to be kinda fun for me because its like a puzzle that you
> can take away pieces of the whole and intertwine them.

thats right, and in doing so you refine your 'intuition' about events.

Chris.
 

joang

visitor
Joined
Nov 24, 1971
Messages
213
Reaction score
0
Sorry, Tatiana,
I didn't see your last post in my mailbox until just now.

Do you watch The Sopranos? Your doctor friend reminds me of the parish priest who had a special friendship with Carmella, Mrs Soprano. There was nothing physical in it, but a lot of flirting with danger, so to speak. Carmella told him off and ended the friendship when she discovered she wasn't the only parishioner he was toying with. Some men [and women too] like the excitement of skirting the edge of forbidden territory without actually crossing the line. I have a feeling the doc may be one of those, but again, I could be wrong.

Namaste,
Joan

PS: I live about as far away from Meadville as one could, and still be in the same state. :cool:
 

candida

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
112
Reaction score
0
Hey Joan Hi!
Have heard a lot about the Sopranos, but never really saw one show. Is it good? Yeah, that scenario you posted about Carmella is so typical of mine. I've often thought that doc was toying with other clients because he did seem somewhat of a DonJuan and he seemed to be the most lonely soul burdened practioner I've met in a long while!
Anyway, today I had a doctor appointment with a new physician who had known doc. The physician assistant told me that it was her opinion that doc had been "left go" abruptly because he had not been bringing in enough revenue, had not been holding his own in the partnership. So, I imagine that his reluctance to say goodbye to me could have been a feeling of shame, failure, what have you. He can still practice medicine in PA but he cannot very well use those two work places as references.
Joan, my sister has a boyfriend who lives real close to Philly; am I getting hotter as to where you live? just trying to do some clairvoyantcy here. And by the way, my son told me of the recent death of the star of the tv show "Whats Happening Now" and was very spooked out to hear about it BECAUSE he had had a dream about Rerun(the star) in a death just 2 days ago!!!!
On a lighter note, peace and joy, Tatiana
 

joang

visitor
Joined
Nov 24, 1971
Messages
213
Reaction score
0
Good morning, Tatiana.
You wrote, "The physician assistant told me that it was her opinion that doc had been "left go" abruptly because he had not been bringing in enough revenue, had not been holding his own in the partnership." Well, that could be true, but I find it doubtful. If he is a good physician, it is more likely his partners would have simply warned him to speed things up, that he was spending too much time per patient. If on the other hand, he was playing Don Juan with his patients, that would be serious enough to sever the partnership. As I said to you in your "I love you" thread, that would be a violation of professional ethics, and could result in legal problems for him and the facility that employs him. Either way, he obviously didn't want to answer any questions about why he was leaving and where he was going. I wonder if the woman who treated you so angrily when you asked her about his whereabouts may have had a crush on him herself. Is it possible she could have been jealous of your special friendship with him?

I think you are making wonderful progress in looking at this situation with open eyes now and a clear head. I think the Yi is too, and is inviting you to approach. As I'm sure you know, the Yi often makes references to itself in the answers it gives. In 19, the condescension it speaks of is not the arrogant, patronizing, disdainful sort. It says [in W/B], "Just as the lake is inexhaustible in depth, so the sage is inexhaustible in his readiness to teach mankind, and just as the earth is boundlessly wide, sustaining and caring for all creatures on it, so the sage sustains and cares for all people and excludes no part of humanity." I think there is no doubt that the I Ching is the sage referred to here. Whether it also refers to the doc is considerably doubtful, imo, based on the behavior you have described to us. Keep seeking the truth, turn more of your attention to other areas of importance in your life, and I am sure the Yi will be there for you.

Namaste,
Joan

PS: Philly, yes. I knew you would figure it out. :cool:
 

joang

visitor
Joined
Nov 24, 1971
Messages
213
Reaction score
0
Hi Chris.

You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into your post(s), and you deserve a response. I hope you will take mine as a constructive suggestion and not a criticism. I am duly awed by your knowledge and command of the subject matter, but in most cases you seem to stop short of stating your conclusion -- or at least, stating it in such a way that it connects to the question asked and can be easily understood by the questioner.

Most people, when they consult the Oracle, want to know what they should do or what's going to happen. I think they would like you to clearly express your opinion on what you think the Oracle's answer is telling them, based on your methodology, rather than present your methodology and expect people to master it and draw their own conclusions. If you have some advice for Tatiana or anyone else, why not simply tell her/him? In other words, please give us some particulars along with or instead of the generalities. Thanks.

Namaste,
Joan
 

chrislofting

visitor
Joined
Nov 19, 1971
Messages
394
Reaction score
0
Joan,

you wrote:
>
> Hi Chris.
>
> You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into your
> post(s), and you deserve a response. I hope you will take
> mine as a constructive suggestion and not a criticism. I am
> duly awed by your knowledge and command of the subject
> matter, but in most cases you seem to stop short of stating
> your conclusion -- or at least, stating it in such a way
> that it connects to the question asked and can be easily
> understood by the questioner.
>
> Most people, when they consult the Oracle, want to know what
> they should do or what's going to happen. I think they
> would like you to clearly express your opinion on what you
> think the Oracle's answer is telling them, based on your
> methodology, rather than present your methodology and expect
> people to master it and draw their own conclusions. If you
> have some advice for Tatiana or anyone else, why not simply
> tell her/him? In other words, please give us some
> particulars along with or instead of the generalities.

If you carefully read my posts to the various threads you will notice that all that is usually given are extensions in general meanings associated with the particular relationships identified.

For example, consider a question about X 'changing' into Y where someone will ask 'what does this mean?'. I am not that someone and as such have not, am not, experiencing the context in which they are asking their question such that I cannot determine if their question was 'right' in the first place. I leave that judgement to them. However, what I can do is expand on the dynamics of the I Ching through (a) identifying finer details on the properties of X and Y and (b) identifying how the brain makes distinctions of two basic forms of change where one is transforming and reflects shape-shifting whereas the other is transcending and reflects a definite sense of core change.

These extensions can aid in the interpretation process in that they allow one to go 'wider' in analysing the hexagrams etc. Why usually no more than this? - see below ;-)

The mentioned general characteristics of change reflect biases in 'tone' where a transforming change, a shape shifting change, reflects a core that has its expression 'exaggerated' and so a movement AWAY from the core. That is interpretable as a NEGATIVE change in that the overall focus on transforming is to adapt to the local context, but to remain integrated overall such that the change is 'false', it is an exaggeration elicited from the local context 'pushing buttons' such that to remain 'true' we need to focus on maintaining the core, long term, expression. (IOW any positiveness is local and so in a context of transforming change is 'delusional' in that a positive, global, focus of change will be *transcending* and that is a different type of change)

A transcending change is where a core is changing such that movement from X to Y is a true change, a total change, where Y *replaces* X and there is no going back, the expression is not local but global. This sort of change, where it reflects a revolution of sudden, total, change, comes from a POSITIVE perspective, be it trying to escape a context or to see and aim for a 'better' context. Both processes reflect issues of REPLACEMENT and a true change is a replacement of X by Y.

I usually give examples of both forms of change when commenting on someone's question etc.

I do not usually give advice other than on general interpretations of the characteristics of hexagrams, not their relationship to a particular question as in "I asked the I Ching, through use of coins, marbles, yarrow sticks, random page selection etc, about my relationship with A and it said X." where people take that question as directly reflecting the situation. There are 64 *actual*, VALID, descriptions of the moment and so we need to be more 'focused' to flesh-out details and cannot do that with coin tossing etc.

Coin tossing etc reflects 'approximations' thinking where recognition of that 'approximations' thinking is based on research accumulated over the last 3000+ years since the original I Ching was developed.

ANY use of randomness or belief in some form of 'spiritual intervention' in asking of questions about a situation will NOT necessarily give you a hexagram that directly describes the dynamics of the situation. In fact to achieve such an event is a 1 chance in 64 operation. (If you understand probability theory then you would understand that, even if in a heads/tails coin tossing situation I could get 20 heads in a row, the chance is still 50/50 for each toss in that time is 'infinite' in these estimations. IOW I could get the 'best fit' hexagram 20 times in a row but it is still 1 in 64 chance and there is nothing 'special' other than it is 'unusual' - and perhaps one needs to look at the coins to see if they are 'fair'!)

What the over-precise consciousness-nature we all have as individuals fails to understand is that it is a PART of us, as are each of the hexagrams of the I Ching. Our interactions with the environment is more by instincts/habits, autopilot, and that interaction is WHOLE - such that local context can 'push buttons' and our minds have no idea what is going on and as such tries to find some meaning in the I Ching but from a PARTS perspective on ONE hexagram and that action is 'faulty', too approximate.

The relationship of the I Ching to the environment is the same as that of an individual to the environment where all PARTS interact as ONE, as a WHOLE, with the environment at each moment. IOW all hexagrams fit the moment.

Thus the interaction with the environment is more often instinctive and a lack of understanding about instincts (aka archetypes), as well as issues in refining those instincts, serves to delude rather than enlighten. Now if you want to be 'deluded' (63 chances out of 64), as in just seeking anything but the current then thats fine but to be enlightened and so be able to do something if need be (or do nothing if need be) then a little more work is required re understanding archetypes etc etc.

When you toss coins etc etc so you are attempting to find a 'best fit' hexagram and the unconscious reality of things is that EVERY hexagram fits the moment IN GENERAL but the dynamics of local context will sort the hexagrams into a sequence from 'best fit' to 'worst fit'. Coin tossing will not necessarily give you 'best fit', there is a higher chance of you getting anything but!

However, since the I Ching is a tightly integrated system and being used as a filter, as in the I Ching describes 'all there is' and reflects a specialisation used to interpret reality, so any hexagram will elicit some form of general meaning that, with a bit of massaging will be made into 'best fit'! (unless you have drawn 'worst fit' - but that can be obvious such that just change it to its opposite and you should be at the 'best fit' end of things ;-))

The function of metaphor creation in the brain means I can take any two words 'at random' from the dictionary and juxtaposition those words and with some 'reflection' find meaning. E.g. "atlas orange" - if I cannot take this literally I will instinctively anthropomorphise and reflect for some time on "who could be "atlas orange"?" My brain is such that it seeks to see 'behind' things as well as working off 'face value'. This 'seeing behind' drive means I can make up all sorts of stories as I attempt to decode information, I can make mountains out of molehills, I can turn Jesus into Satan.

Through analysis of how the brain processes ANY information the IDM material has come up with a set of very generic questions applicable to any event such that answering the questions has a higher chance of eliciting the 'best fit' ordering of hexagrams and from that a better chance in getting the 'right' advice (or more so the 'best' advice. Coin tossing will give you a range from precise to approximate-but-still-meaningful).

Thus if you are using randomness etc I cannot give particular advice on a hexagram and its meaning to your particular problem and so what you 'must' do etc ;-) - all I do is give you extensions in meanings all due to the relationships of hexagrams stemming from the method used in the derivation of hexagrams - recursion of yin/yang etc etc Thus all of the relationships of hexagrams describe in my Hexagram Notes pages are relationships 'hard coded' into the METHOD used to derive the hexagrams and as such reflects univeral relationships where the method of RECURSION forces the relationships, see : (http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icpoints.html)

Thus given ANY particular situation these general, universal, relationships will apply - their relations are not tied to the moment, they are tied to the method being used to analyse the moment.

Note that randomness and the miraculous share the same space where the 'value' is in the interpretation and its associated energy expression. Thus if you toss coins ('randomness') and elicit the 'best fit' hexagram to you that is miraculous and confirming of the sense of the 'spiritual' guide etc and is 'lifting', energy expending - you believe that the process was not 'random'. This is, from a Science perspective, false thinking based on a lack of knowledge about how we function as a species (energy conserving) vs as a conscious species (energy expending) in processing information ;-)

The usefulness of coins etc is that it can elicit a hexagram that describes an aspect of the situation you may not have considered in your reflections upon the situation. This saves you reading EVERY hexagram to flesh-out the whole situation (but better still is that, given the 'best fit' so we can immediately derive a 64-hexagram sequence that 'fits' the moment and so ordering the hexagrams qualitatively. Something difficult to do without knowing the algorithm that sorts 'best fit' to 'worst fit' ;-))

So, to get particular advice from me would require more precision from you, namely using the questions approach to derive the 'best fit' hexagram and from there all follows in that that hexagram reflects your unconscious processes being drawn out re overall sense of values, sense of time, sense of personal involvement in the context of the question.

(some dont want to even commit to ANY use of their consciousness in that they can lack self-esteem even at the most general of levels and so dont trust themselves at all. In these situations the questions can be answered through discussion with a third party - also note that the particular questions I use are replaceable with synonyms that may be more context-sensitive)

Most people dont want to get so involved, they prefer to 'toss coins' and that is fine but in doing so dont expect some strong, particular, advice from me. I will give you the relationships of a hexagram to all other hexagrams based on the methodology of the I Ching - and as such nothing related to the particular moment, just qualities associated with the hexagram as an archetype and so applicable to interpretations of the moment using that hexagram. Whether that hexagram is the 'best fit' or not is not my concern.

I will also give an interpretation based on the different types of change and so what is IMPLIED by the 'change'. Thus X 'changing' into Y has two flavours - transforming change (shape shifting) and transcending change and I will comment on that but as a general, as in 'with these hexagrams the associated meanings are X.' I will NOT usually tell you what you must DO etc. IOW I will give you different perspectives useable in interpretation but not necessarily THE interpretation in relation to the particular issue.

If you want more from me then you will need to be more precise in methodology re accessing the I Ching, seeing reality 'through' the I Ching.

The 'quick' proactive I Ching uses three questions applied to moving lines of a trigram that is then extended into a hexagram - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html

The 'normal' proactive I Ching uses six questions based on interaction of you (bottom trigram) with them (top trigram) - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact.html - there are some issues here in the context hexagram in that I need to flesh-out five-phase patterns etc so you can ignore it and just focus on the current and 'future' hexagrams.

The 'affirmations' I Ching lets you create a hexagram with the intent of developing into it - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icproact.html - and so to experience 'shape shifting' ;-)

Thus the ICPlus material can be more precise than the traditional perspective but it requires a little more involvement of the user's consciousness in the process ;-) Have you ever read "The Dice Man" ?

Chris.
 

joang

visitor
Joined
Nov 24, 1971
Messages
213
Reaction score
0
Chris, you wrote:
> If you carefully read my posts to the various threads you
> will notice that all that is usually given are extensions in
> general meanings associated with the particular
> relationships identified.
>
Well, I did read this one carefully, since it was addressed partly to me, and I did notice the particular relationships you designated X and Y. That's what I was talking about. You label them with a letter, but you do not identify them with a noun. You leave it up to the questioner or reader to connect the letters to particular persons or things in the situation in question. You explained why you do that in the following:

> For example, consider a question about X 'changing' into Y
> where someone will ask 'what does this mean?'. I am not that
> someone and as such have not, am not, experiencing the
> context in which they are asking their question..."

OK, I got that. You can not/will not try to put yourself into another's shoes/context. I admit it is difficult and entails the risk of getting it wrong. For that same reason, I also do not do complete readings for others. I simply try to share whatever my intuition or experience tells me MIGHT apply to the hexagrams they draw for themselves. So, I will never again ask you to stick your neck out if you don't want to. No hard feelings, I hope.

You said:
> I do not usually give advice other than on general
> interpretations of the characteristics of hexagrams, not
> their relationship to a particular question as in "I asked
> the I Ching..."

OK, I got that too. If you have the time and inclination, would you please do a general interpretation of 37, The Family? I often have difficulty relating the family relationships in the hexagram to non-familial situations. If you do, I promise I'll read it as carefully as I am able. :cool:

Namaste,
Joan

PS: No, I haven't read "The Dice Man." How is that relevant? I assume it has nothing to do with the comedian, Andrew Dice Clay, who is nick-named The Dice Man.
 

joang

visitor
Joined
Nov 24, 1971
Messages
213
Reaction score
0
Ooops! I meant to give that a new title, since we have left the subject of the "Again" thread.
 

chrislofting

visitor
Joined
Nov 19, 1971
Messages
394
Reaction score
0
Hi Joan,

you wrote
>
> OK, I got that. You can not/will not try to put yourself
> into another's shoes/context. I admit it is difficult and
> entails the risk of getting it wrong. For that same
> reason, I also do not do complete readings for others. I
> simply try to share whatever my intuition or experience
> tells me MIGHT apply to the hexagrams they draw for
> themselves. So, I will never again ask you to stick your
> neck out if you don't want to. No hard feelings, I hope.
>

not at all. As I said, if you are more precise in the hexagram derivation (use the questions) than I can be more precise in my advice. Otherwise I supply the additional material of hexagram relationships, question types etc that can AID in YOUR interpretation in relating hexagram to the particular question. My point is that to be precise you need the 'best fit' hexagram and coin tossing etc will not necessarily give you that. Thus the coin toss method is too 'unstable' IMHO to aid in giving a precise analysis every time.

> You said:
> > I do not usually give advice other than on general
> > interpretations of the characteristics of hexagrams, not
> > their relationship to a particular question as in "I asked
> > the I Ching..."
>
> OK, I got that too. If you have the time and inclination,
> would you please do a general interpretation of 37, The
> Family? I often have difficulty relating the family
> relationships in the hexagram to non-familial situations.
> If you do, I promise I'll read it as carefully as I am able.
> :cool:
>

Hexagram 37 is about the *imposition* of rigid structure to serve as a source of tension release. The 'ancients' made the analogy to a family where the environment is free of tension in that everyone is in the 'right' relationships - first son is first son, father is father, second daugher is second daughter etc. This also applies to ANY collective and so clan, work. social club etc etc. The overall focus is on there being a lack of competition due to the nature of the individuals.

There is a commentary that captures this in that the sequence text says:

"He who is injured without, of a certainty draws back into his family" (W/B). This particular comment links 36 with 37 but it also reflects the tension release that comes when one walks through the front door to the 'warmth' of the family home - nothing needs to be said, it is the context that acts to IMPLICITLY elicit tension release. (it is also a bit like coming across someone from your own country whilst travelling in foreign lands etc - or perhaps more so returning to your own country and just being amongst your 'own kind' releases tension - you dont need to say anything etc)

Hexagram 37 is 'complemented' in the binary sequence by hexagram 40 where the focus is on the use of a *release* of structure to release tension - the usual analogy is to the breaking of a hot summer's day by a thunderstorm. This focus is very EXPLICIT in its tension release.

At the core, generic, species-nature level, hexagram 37 is being, or seeking to be, influencial (wind in the top position) in a context of some aid (fire in the bottom position reflects a sense of guidance in that the structure, the bounding, the enclosure, acts to guide through distinguishing 'us' from 'them' in an ideological context. Fire doubled reflects a focus on formalising the subtle guidance nature into explicit direction-setting, an ideology etc.)

In a context of human emotions fire reflect the emotion of acceptence - being 'in' the gang, pushing the ideology etc and the pushing outwards of that 'gang' - the complement of fire is water (base of 40) where the 'us vs them' is more focused on protection, on containment that can cause stress such that water is linked to the emotion of rejection)

See additional relationships of 37 given in http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x110101.html

WITHIN the octet of fire-based hexagrams (36, 22, 63, 37, 55, 30, 49, 13) 37 is a more 'dampened' form of 55. IOW exaggerate 37 and the rigid structure starts to 'bulge', too much! That said, the top line of 37 is yang and as such reflects an overall differentiation focus when compared to its more integration-biased 'mate', hexagram 63 (which also covers 'completion' and so a sense of 'correct structure'. In the analysis of the OCTET rather than the 63,37 pair, hexagram 63 is a dampening version of hexagram 30.)

Hope this isnt too much in one mouthful! ;-)


> PS: No, I haven't read "The Dice Man." How is that
> relevant? I assume it has nothing to do with the comedian,
> Andrew Dice Clay, who is nick-named The Dice Man.
>

No. It deals with a person living their life by the toss of the dice. It is fiction but 'interesting' in the context of 'randomness' etc ;-)

Chris.
 

candida

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
112
Reaction score
0
Hey there Chris how are you?
I have received 37 many times concerning my questions on the again postings(the physician and me) and every time I got the line where it says for the wife to be quiet and in her place. I find it kinda ironic because even though I never was docs' wife, it may have seemed like I was cause we were so close and probably talk about town was that we were an item(I don't know this for a fact though)so my being the wife as in 37 would seem appropriate. You were speaking about 37 and its implications for tension release and I think I gave that to the doctor without even trying; in other words I think, without being too pompous that I met a need of his that left him peaceful.(and that need was not sexual in origin, just emotional) Now, I'll never know what I meant to him because it seems as if I'll never see him again. Is there anything I can ask Ching, I mean how should I phrase this question?
 

joang

visitor
Joined
Nov 24, 1971
Messages
213
Reaction score
0
Hi Tatiana.
Just a quick note to correct an apparent misunderstanding. In your Oct 22, 06:06 post to me, you said, "Yeah, you're right, he really doesn't love me at all."

While that could be true, I didn't say that. What I did say was:

"Sorry, I don't see anything here to indicate that he is madly in love with you. 19 speaks only of caring, teaching, and condescension."

Namaste,
Joan
 

candida

visitor
Joined
Feb 7, 1970
Messages
112
Reaction score
0
Yes Joan, , as I look back, you didn't say that he doesn't love me, but did say that 19 speaks only of caring, teaching and condescension.
I guess it must have been coming to the realization (on my own) that he indeed must not love me. At the very least, `not even really just caring cause he never bothered to tell me anything. I can understand that if doc got fired he might be reluctant to own up to it and might think he need not tell me as I might be insignificant to him. Oh well, I went to the halloween parade with my sister and her boyfriend(whose from Philly, by the way)At least he made the far trek across the state. lol I went to forget about you know who but I had a mild surprize! When I was sitting along the sidelines on my folding chair, minding my own business, enjoying the parade who comes along smack dab in my face? none other than the infamous ex nurse who was so rude to me on the phone. We were less than 4 in. away from each other; our eyes met but neither one of us talked to each other. that was a little unnerving. The reason is because she has information that I would love to know about doc' whereabouts(at least I have to take her at her word that she knows-- of course she could be telling a fib. I just feel that is rather mean to do to me when after all, the three of us were friends. I knew her long before she worked for doc. I'm going to ask Ching how she feels about me and why. Have a good night, Tatiana
 

chrislofting

visitor
Joined
Nov 19, 1971
Messages
394
Reaction score
0
Hi Candida,

you wrote:
>
> Hey there Chris how are you?

fine ;-)

> I have received 37 many times concerning my questions on the
> again postings(the physician and me) and every time I got
> the line where it says for the wife to be quiet and in her
> place.

Since the focus is on tension release through rigid structure so any distortion of the structure will take one AWAY from the archetype in that it destabilises that structure. As stated before, there are TWO forms of interpretation of line changes with one being a warning and the other a positive event. What 'fits best' is then to be considered ;-)

> I find it kinda ironic because even though I never
> was docs' wife, it may have seemed like I was cause we were
> so close and probably talk about town was that we were an
> item(I don't know this for a fact though)so my being the
> wife as in 37 would seem appropriate. You were speaking
> about 37 and its implications for tension release and I
> think I gave that to the doctor without even trying; in
> other words I think, without being too pompous that I met a
> need of his that left him peaceful.(and that need was not
> sexual in origin, just emotional) Now, I'll never know what
> I meant to him because it seems as if I'll never see him
> again. Is there anything I can ask Ching, I mean how should
> I phrase this question?
>

Depends.

What do you seek? the restoration of a past state? an escape from the current state? To what degree was your identity tied with the doctor? what did the relationship do for *you*? without him how do you see yourself? what areas do you think requires work?

You could try the basic questions - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html - and tell us what you get, treat it as the I Ching asking YOU some general questions and so aiding in it giving you a useful answer.

The method is 'generic' and you need to think about your answers. If you are unsure of A or B then it implies a change is in process. Go back in time to the last state of definite A or B, if it was A whereas now you are 'not sure' then the change is A into B, if B then B into A.

There are three questions, four possible answers per question as is A, A into B, B, B into A.

Chris.
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top