Answer reviseted

[donato]

I think it?s always interesting to re-examine old answers. There is something to learn or to deepen.
Last year, in July, I had to take an important decision. I had been looking around for a second hand sailing boat to buy. It was my dream since youth days. But my moneys weren?t (and aren?t) very much, and I had to be very careful not to buy a boat which needed too much repairing. Finally I found a boat I liked in a town a bit far from home. It was old but seemed still in good shape. The owner was going to leave in a couple of days so I had to take my decision in a hurry, without having the possibility to check the actual state of the hull, engine, or the rigging. Nor I could trust anybody in the place to get a sound opinion or advice. Everything was left upon my own superficial judgment. It seemed the boat I was looking for, beautiful, well built, but? what about hidden surprise?
Furthermore, will I be able to afford her maintenance?

So I asked to I Ching: ?Next Monday I?ll go to try the boat? I still have some doubts. Will it be a good purchase? Will it be a good boat, without serious defects??

I got the following exagram:
30. Li / The Clinging, Fire, no changing lines

I took my decision according to my understanding of the response? but before telling you which it was, I would like to know what you would have thought and decided after receiving that oracle.
Any one there willing to accept the challenge? I?d like to know whether my interpretation was right.

Thank you for your help:
Donato

 

[jesed]

According with mathematical teaching, 30 unchanging is a permanent Total Conflict.

When the question is a YES/NO It means NO

But, depending on the day and month when you did the question, there is a chance for an exception

Best wishes

 

[donato]

Jesed,
thank you a lot for your prompt answer!
Well... that's not exactely what I had thought.
I was using mainly Wilhelm's translation then, and the only way to understand the answer was to read the immage and the commentaries. From where you got "Total conflict"?
I'm getting aware only now that there are other views to look at I Ching, but I don't have any idea of what you mean with "mathematical teaching", can you exlpain?

looking forward to hear other comments too,
thanks:
Donato

 

[jesed]

Hi Donato

Yes. Is a diferent method to understand Yi Jing answer. it doesn't use the text. Every line is labeled according with 12 kind of energies (named as 12 animals).

See http://www.raymond-lo.com/ver2/aboutmasterlo/articles.asp?id=7

Best wishes

 

[bruce]

Donato,

Fwiw, I see 30 as a very positive sign with great opportunity. But not everthing that swims into the net is worth keeping.

Off Yi a moment, you've heard the definition of a boat? A hole in the water that you pour money into. So I'd do my sailboat homework before taking the plunge.

 

[void]

In 'Healing Lines' an I Ching for health 30 is called 'Addiction' . I never found 30 to be anything it was made out to be, I don't get the clear light thing at all, doesn't mean anything to me - in that somehow clarity or clear light does not ever seem to be an answer to any question (30 is a blind spot) see it more in terms of dependency and addiction, the idea of needing another thing to keep going. A blind spot in ones thinking, a belief one 'needs' to have something, the pull towards something else - I guesss that leads into the attraction in 31.

If you went ahead and bought the boat maybe you were sorry, you didn't think it through enough, you just 'had to have it' ? Well I'm not 100% on that but I thought I'd enter the competition.

C'mon now whats the Prize for the right one ??

 

[jesed]

Ten tortoise's shells?

 

[jesed]

Just in case the comment could be useful:

About 30 at the light of Traditional method (I mean, the one that uses the Text Analysis):

I think many people misunderstand 30... seems many people indentify it mechanically with "good answer".

Not always 30 is "something good" or "good answer". Sometimes means "clarity of vision", but some other times means "apasionated action" (and apasionated action in times for caution is a bad answer

) and some other times means "need for purification" (to be adicted to what is correct and fair).

Even more, because is a double-trigram hexagram (double fire), is Consecuential. it means: more than an object or static situation is a process. The process from apasionated action to clarity of vision.

It means: one need to ask oneself, about the issue of the question, if passion is an obstacle for a clear judgement.

Best wishes

 

[jesed]

ps... understanding 30 as "The process from apasionated action to clarity of vision" is how one can say 30 is what spiritual traditions had called Inlightment.

But this aplly when the question is macrocosmical... not necesarly when asking for concret questions, as Donato's question

 

[bruce]

Perhaps the idea of addiction or asphyxiation comes from the image of a net, as in being caught in something. But if you are the catcher and not the caught, it is the opposite of suffocation, addiction or darkness. It is freedom and clarity.

For me it always seems to synch with something which isn't yet bright, but has the potential to bring brightness. The moment I get it doesn't seem bright, but what follows does, assuming I do my part, which is to cling to brightness, as a cow clings to earth, or as fire clings to fuel.

 

[bruce]

So, Donato, perhaps both of these interpretations are true for 30. Das boat has the potential to bring a bright spot into your world, but also has the potential to suffocate or comsume you or your finances. Maybe it depends whether you own it or it owns you?

 

[rosada]

Over on the "IChing on the IChing" thread we had lots of double postings while we were focused on 30...

 

[donato]

Wow! I'm ashtonished! How many interesting and good posts... you are really great!
I just had a glance now, but I cannot stay, I'll have to go to work. Mabe I'll come back later in the morming or this afternoon, and I'll reply to all.
I'll tell you my decision, and the prince (who got it right) will be reworded with horses in great number! -)

see you,
Donato

 

[void]

Bruce writes '..something which has the potential to bring brightness...'. The problem I have is the word 'brightness' I've really no idea how it is meant in this context. If you say something brings you 'brightness' what do you mean ? Do you mean happiness ? or 'clearness' how would one experience that ? Clear vision I guess ?

Jesed thanks for your thoughts on 30, they 'clear up' my understanding of it alot, because I never thought it was the wonderful omen people made out.

Rosada yes funny lots of double posting on 30 in the 'I ching on I ching' thread, also lots of people posting there, like a fire quickly burning up all the lines - and double clarity, 2 postings for alot of lines

 

[donato]

Dear all,
you really have done a good work with my question, and it has reconciled myself with I Ching. As a matter of fact that response I received last year was like a thorn in my flesh? yes, I did buy that boat, mainly because I was in love with it (N?30, means passion) and I was ?too much addicted? to my dream of sailing in a boat of my own, but also because I trusted I Ching, and for my ?Youthful Folly? I had taken it as a positive answer.
I realize now that you cannot consult I Ching without having a kind of cultural background. That kind of misunderstanding can lead to lot of regret and sorrow.
At present I?m studying Hilary?s course, so I hope to become more wise in future? anyway you seems to be a good example!

Bruce, yes, your definition of a boat is sadly very true, maybe you are a sailor yourself?
I had to spend a lot of money on that boat, much more than I thought, and what?s worse, more than I could afford. The engine was gone? The holidays I had planned to do with the boat vanished. I found myself in a horrible situation, I had no money to buy a new engine (let aside all the other repairs) and I couldn?t sell the boat without an engine!

I blamed I Ching for being in that situation, and I couldn?t understand why it ?betrayed me?.
I should have asked your help at that time instead of now!

Jesed,
Your interpretation, so prompt, so clear cut, really surprised me, and it was correct! My first thought was: how could he know? And Why I got it the other way round?
I?ll have a look at the site you mention, and see what?s all about.
You say: ?I think many people misunderstand 30... seems many people identify it mechanically with "good answer". You centred the issue, at least in my case was like that.
?passionate action in times for caution is a bad answer?. Yes, that was my mistake: I was too ?passionate? to be careful, to have a clear vision of what I was going to do.

Bruce,
You too have touched a point which is meaningful:
?For me it always seems to synch with something which isn't yet bright, but has the potential to bring brightness, ? the boat has the potential to bring a bright spot into your world, but also has the potential to suffocate or consume you or your finances. Maybe it depends whether you own it or it owns you??

I really reached a point when all the troubles I was in were suffocating and consuming me and my finance, and the irony was that I had thought that the boat would have brought ?a bright spot in my word?. Actually there were (and still are) both possibilities, as you say, depending on me and my ?clear vision?, and I Ching was right to show both of them. And that reminds me of that Chinese story about the peasant who lost his horse? I think you know it.

Void,
As you have already guessed, you won the competition too. You say:

?see it more in terms of dependency and addiction, the idea of needing another thing to keep going. A blind spot in ones thinking, a belief one 'needs' to have something, the pull towards something else

I did have more than one ?blind spot in my thinking?. I was fixed on an idea, that I needed the boat to be happy or to fulfil my dream (which, as you know, are two different things). Just like someone who is heavily addicted to something thinks he needs that in order to achieve something else?

So, participating in this forum has been a good lesson for me.
Thank you again,
Donato

P.S.
The prize? Well? you could guess, If you happen to come this part of the world, you are all welcome on board!

 

[void]

What part of the world ? I've already started packing ??

Donata I've made mistakes like that with the Yi Jing, thats why if an answer really really goes against all obvious indications and common sense I go my own way {usually} because of the possibility I got it wrong. Shame about the boat though, a real shame

 

[donato]

Sardinia, Italy, but better wait 'till June for going out into the sea. Now it's freezing!

I'm wondering what Steven Harcher has to say about N?30, would be possible to copy it here?

"The problem I have is the word 'brightness' I've really no idea how it is meant in this context."

At the beginning I had it associated with beauty, (which to me appeared as a positive assessment of the boat) but of course it leads to clinging or addiction. Perhaps you find "net" and "suffocating" in differnt translations...

I realize I don't have the tools for a deep enquiry myself.

 

[bruce]

Hi Donato,

I'm glad you found our feedback helpful.

Yes, I was raised on the water, was an assault boat skipper in the navy, and have owned a few boats, and have been owned by one or two also. I can clearly recall agonizing over a beautiful tournament fishing boat; a special one. (they are all special when our passion is involved) I wracked myself silly trying to figure a way to justify buying it, but because I knew it was a foolish prioritizing on my part, the conflict inside was disturbing. I was on the road with my job at the time, and while in a motel room, I cast the coins about this, and received 61, no change lines. Whooo kay... I let it go and listened to my inner teacher. Shortly after that, the company I worked for sold out, and I was let go. With house payments and mouths to feed, I was very glad for my decision not to buy the boat at that time.

That said, I have enjoyed many years of boating and fishing, and have owned some nice rigs. Ti Ming is everything.

Void, brightness, as I intend it, is everything that fire is. The hexagram, as you know, is made of fire over fire. The nature of fire can enhance, illuminate and clarify, but of course fire can also be terribly destructive. Fire doesn't know when to quit itself, until it runs out of fuel.

The trigram fire is the second daughter. She represents beauty and also passion (think Aries). She's the "hot one" of the three daughters, the one all the guys seem to want to date. She is the life of any party, the entertainer, the show off and the opportunist. She?s been known to burn a few bridges and can heat up an argument like no one else. But what would life be like without her?

 

[void]

Mmm yes double fire, lots of brightness, can be destructive, makes more sense thanks Bruce

 

[donato]

Hi Bruce,
I really liked your comments.
You have been wiser than me about that boat?
It seems we must be very careful when we get a single hexagram, and we should dig deeper.
But let me say something more about N?30.
I just read Hilary?s lesson N? 7, Working with a single hexagram, and I tried following her advice to consult nuclear hex and complementary hexagram.
She says:

This only applies in the very specific case where you receive a single hexagram when you asked for a prediction, and you would rather avoid what?s predicted if possible. Naturally, if you asked for advice, then the complementary hexagram would (as is more usual) show you what not to do.

Now, the nuclear hexagrams of 30 are: 28. Ta Kuo / Preponderance of the Great and N?1.

As you know, N? 30, means mainly something too much for your forces ?The load is too heavy for the strength of the supports.? And that fits very well with what happened after I bought the boat.
N? 1, could mean that the situation requires a lot of commitment, (or struggle) on our part.
Which is exactly what I had to do.
Finally, the complementary hexagram is 29. K'an / The Abysmal (Water), and that too is a clear warning that something was not quite all right with that boat.
I wish I had subscribed to Hilary?s course before!

Now, let us see how it works with your response.

The nuclear hexagrams of 61 are: 27 and 2
27. I / Corners of the Mouth (Providing Nourishment), says: ?Pay heed to the providing of nourishment?, (by coincidence you said: ?with house payments and mouth to feed?)?
2. K'un / The Receptive: If the superior man undertakes something and tries to lead, He goes astray; But if he follows, he finds guidance.
The complementary hexagram is:
62. Hsiao Kuo / Preponderance of the Small
Small things may be done; great things should not be done.
The flying bird brings the message:
It is not well to strive upward,
It is well to remain below.

To me it seems all quite coherent, doesn?t it?
So I was right saying that it?s always instructive to revisit (or revising) old answers.

Last: What is Ti Ming?

 

[lightofdarkness]

reading the trigrams of 30, where fire in upper reflects the qualities of fire in lower doubled, we have:

with/from guidance (fire in lower) comes a sense of direction (an ideology ; fire in upper). The fact that that sense of direction could be facism or satanism etc is beside the point.

The spectrum of fire-based hexagrams covers hiding the inner light (no 'likeminded' people around! - 36) to forming loose associations with the like minded ('friendly' competitivness as found in a gang etc and so fellow likeminded - 13)

The emotional element of fire is on issues of acceptance, on being 'one of us' but also on expanding that group, as a fire does, we expand a boundary to turn difference into sameness (as a fire turns all into ash) - from a psychological position we cover personalities focused on organising, planning, mapping, strategists, commanders etc etc.

The binary sequence gives us the fire octet of:

36, 22, 63, 37, 55, 30, 49, 13

These form into pairs reflecting the dichotomy of unconditional/conditional:

36 / 22 (hide light)
63 / 37
55 / 30
49 / 13 (reveal light)

The ordering of the binary sequence also allows us to see pairs derived from 'mirroring', or viewing 'opposites' to give is:

36 - 13 (hide - express)
22 - 49 (cover up - reveal) etc
63 - 30
37 - 55

Dont associate light with the positive, it can burn and so be destructive (as mentioned in reference to pure yang of hex 01) - the overall focus here is on the boundary that moves outwards as compared to water with its focus on issues of rejection/rejecting and a boundary that holds things in/out.

If we zoom-in on 30 and get its spectrum then we have such analogies as:

the 27-ness of 30 is:

101101 (30)
100001 (27)
------
001100 (62)
------

IOW the basic infrastructure covers loyalty issues to the collective (62) that is particularised to issues of acceptance, being one of us, promoting an ideology/path etc.

the 'correct sequence' of 30, its 63-ness, gives us:

101010 (63)
101101 (30)
------
000111 (12)

IOW we stand and defend that ideology, neutralise any attacks upon it and in so doing validate that ideology (or basic relationship)


Chris.

 

[bruce]

Hi Donato,

Yes, there does appear to be coherence in nuclear hexagrams, however I don't use them. Perhaps I should, but I've never felt the need to mine a reading's meaning beyond the primary and relating hexagrams and change lines. Occasionally I'll review the Fan Yao of the lines, but I rely upon the basics to find answers.

Ti Ming is what I fondly call timing.

 

[donato]

Chris,
I don't quite follow you.
What you say may have sense in a general perpective, but how can I fit it to my question?

 

[lightofdarkness]

Your particular question appears to focus on the dynamic of rejection/acceptance and so on water/fire, on a general boundary condition.

Your derivation method (whatever that is) has led to a bias to fire and so to issues of acceptance and so incorporating the boat into your 'world view' as such.

However, from the ICPlus perspective, your focus on 'good' vs 'bad' etc suggests more a base line of yin - a focus on values rather than facts; on a qualitative focus/concern rather than quantitative.

You also show concern with what COULD be.

You are using a lot of energy and so being proactive.

This gives us a base context of mountain where the focus is on issues of self-restraint/block/stop that develops into a focus on quality control, the use of discernment.

Included in this context are such hexagrams as the 31,33 pair with their focus on being enticed. ;-) IOW these are properties of the general 'mountain' context and so must be scrutinised in analysis of the situation. The members of the mountain octet are:

15, 52, 39, 53, 62, 56, 31, 33

scan these to get a full picture of the mountain context and see which one resonates the most - then analyse its spectrum to show the dynamics within the hexagram. This analysis will enable you to choose the best path with some confidence in that you understand what is going on etc., in that the final determinator of what to do is you - the IC covers the context that is pushing your buttons; your consciousness can then mediate as to which buttons it allows to be pushed or what to push-back with, or to leave it alone and move on.

Chris.

 

[bruce]

Chris, I love it when you talk dirty. Especially when I can actually understand it!