Any tips for getting into the correct mood for using yarrow sticks?

[Qiaozhi Yeats]

I have never managed to use yarrow sticks to divine, only coins, and on one rare occasion, tooth picks,

Can anyone share some tips on how to motivate oneself to sit and divine with the appropriate stillness for using yarrow sticks;?;

Thanks

 

[svenrus]

I can't give You an answer just share my experience. I turned over to dies years ago and like with coins it takes no time but to my surprise I now and then, seldom found myself with the sticks of yarrow when the inquiry were special important. So I guess one will find forth the sticks of yarrow when the situation calls for it.....

 

[Qiaozhi Yeats]

I can't give You an answer just share my experience. I turned over to dies years ago and like with coins it takes no time but to my surprise I now and then, seldom found myself with the sticks of yarrow when the inquiry were special important. So I guess one will find forth the sticks of yarrow when the situation calls for it.....

There is a Sufi story about how the Yi Jing lost its voice with the diviners just opening it at random whilst eating, dripping gravy on to it. Dies does sound interesting, I have tried them before with the Kuan Yin oracle, but never for the Yi Jing which sounds more involved. I am thinking that practicing staring at a candle for six minutes a day might help. I will have to try it.

 

[Qiaozhi Yeats]

I assume you are talking about how you might prepare yourself, or 'get into the mood' or gain a correct frame of mind to use the yarrow stalks for divination.

If that's the case, then I'd say keep it simple, whatever works for you is what is 'correct'. Do note however, some Yi authors don't think that getting into a quite place or frame of mind is necessary for using the Yi. See the YouTube video link below, which opens with someone demonstrating the 'proper use' of yarrow stalks. Rules 1 and 2 in the video speak to your question, though the whole video is very good in my opinion.

Also, what's this about a Sufi tale of people using the Yi? That seems to be mixing up times, places, cultures, and traditions quite a lot. Therefore, I'd be interested to know the source of this tale - since the Yi predates Islam and Sufism by maybe 1,500 years.

Regards, D

Thank you for your answer D, the video is worth watching, but not necessarily worth following. Yarrow stick divination has advantages over the coins method for several reasons. One it is slower allowing for a greater meditative approach, and two it has an element of conscious approximation allowing for some use of the ego. I really see it as the best approach in certain circumstances, but suffer from too much ADHD to be able to practice it. This is the root of my question. I do find it interesting that the coin method predates it. That I didn't know. Thank you.

 

[svenrus]

............................... I do find it interesting that the coin method predates it. That I didn't know. Thank you.

The coin-method do not predate the Yarrow-method. It's just that the manual we have today to the use of it are reconstructed.

Wang Bi, AD 226-249, *) thou have a detailled description of it.

*) The classic of changes, Richard John Lynn, Columbia University Press, N.Y. 1994 Commentary Part One / 9. Page 61 this ed.

 

[Gmulii]

I think what is true is that the Yi didn't come with a set of instructions, so we don't know exactly how it was originally used. There are some people who think, for example, that early on a second, resulting, hexagram wasn't constructed, nor consulted. It's also interesting to me that both coin and stalk methods are skewed towards getting more unmoving lines: with these methods we have a 25% probability of getting a moving line, where with a random number generator, it's more like 50%!

That would really depend on the random number generator. : )
Most popular Chinese calculator for 文王卦 that I'm aware of, used to have somewhat more open source then it does, currently and its random number generator was very similar to how coins would be, only it was inverted.
In any calculators I have made, we have simulated throwing coins as well.

In my humble opinion that isn't needed... There are many ways to see that any random number or event can do it, yet since we do need to make it in some way, seems better to use what is accepted.

About the other stuff... When it comes to practical divination, I'm not sure I would agree the oldest possible approach would matter.
What has been developed after thousands of years and hundreds of schools, lineages, taoist monasteries and private practitioners working with the system would make much more sense to work better, then what was used thousand of years ago, by a few people, likely just stumbling on the whole thing and just starting starting to figure out how it all works.

 

[Qiaozhi Yeats]

I see the yarrow method as I know it as simulating democracy, one can read Arrow's theorem, famously proved by the mathematician Kenneth Arrow to know that no form of democracy is perfect algebraically, sometimes there might have to be a recount.

 

[Gmulii]

I think the probabilities that are built into the yarrow and coin method are intentional, and were meant to give us more unmoving lines, and therefore generally fewer moving lines as part of our queries. But that's just speculation on my part.

I think they just used whatever method they could so that an outcome is observed. The observation being the important factor, while the method, even though it had to be somewhat random wasn't the most important factor in it(and nothing is truly random, even the coins will have air pressure, muscle movements and other factors that will decide the outcome if one is aware enough).
In other systems there observation is done without effort to create random event and again hexagram is constructed, although for Plum Blossom/Mei Hua more often then not.

, I think we now have more, and more varied systems, but not necessarily 'better' or more correct ones!

As far as that parts of Asia goes, there are many detailed studies. If I remember correctly, for QMDJ for example(another system used for divination in there), there were schools that mapped out hundreds of cases with both popular approaches there, with the idea they can finally prove with absolute clarity that one is more accurate. And that is challenging with QMDJ, as you can't use a map more often then once every 2 hours, so if you want a hundred cases, you will need minimum of 200 hours.
I know similar studies have been done many times for Feng Shui systems.

So there are ways to show what is more accurate and schools and practitioners are putting the effort to map it out sometimes, although in my humble opinion it doesn't work like that, as it will always end up on their reading skills, no matter what result it would seem to be the right one.

Anyway, I'm sure someone, somewhere(probably many, and many times) have done similar studies for the text with the lines. But even more so there will be up to how they read the text.

 

[Gmulii]

Getting back to the original question, someone asked about how to get into the correct 'mood' for using yarrow stalks, and I suggested that there is no 'correct mood' only whatever works for him. He seems to be saying that he still prefers a more 'meditative' approach ... so be it.

You often refer to these 'systems', which most of here are not familiar with, and even fewer of us use. So, as I said earlier, I don't see the point of what you're getting at here, or how it's addressing the original question?

As for me, I'm completely fine using the casting methods I use, and I not seeking anything more 'perfect' or more 'accurate', regardless of how many studies have been done about it. Studies, just like casting methods, or Asian, or Confusian interpretations of the Yi can all be biased and skewed.

And I strongly suspect that many of these methods and interpretations might be based more on currying favor of whomever was in power at the time, and less on a correct or more perfect interpretation of the Dao.

And as with politics and religion, and the Yi and the Dao, large numbers don't equate to correctness. If so, we should all convert to Christianity and choose to live under toletarian regimes and dictators.

D

We are in forum about divination, someone asked a question about methods for creating hexagrams and I thought methods for creating hexagrams and how that is viewed in the place where the system that you all are using originated have some relevance.
Not mentioning other systems then the text with the lines, is challenging, however, as that is part of how all this is viewed there now(and has been for thousands of years).

I don't remember commenting on what system was more accurate, as that is very long topic and as you said, since most members here aren't familiar with almost none of them will be a waste of time.

 

[Gmulii]

I don't remember commenting on what system was more accurate ....

Aha, I see where the problem originated, my bad. I was talking about study done on two different ways of calculating QMDJ map, one is called Zhi Run, the other Chai Bu. But its both for popular methods in the same systems, study for cross systems I haven't seen and I doubt there will be a lot, since people that have doubts in some of the systems usually won't spend time to learn them, even less so to test them in such detail.

The idea was that there is sometimes studies and the "scientific method" used, I just don't know if someone did for coins vs yarrows.

But on the question... From what people that I learned the most from said, when it comes to that, it just needs the mind/emotions to not get in the way too much. Doing something repetitive like counting the stalks or the coins can help. And in that sense the stalks would be more beneficial as it takes much longer to do, but to be fair most people wouldn't have strong emotion or that many thoughts if they have to create it from coins as well.

In that sense, online calculators that create it instantly would require that the person clicking the button can "empty their mind" on their own. If they don't the answer can become a mess to read, at least for me(not always, but often when its the most important).

That's where creating hexagram from events or from something instant can help, as then you don't have control over the process, but of course its solved by the coins and most other methods as well.

So in that sense, from my point of view, any method is good as long as we can be imperial with it. If we can't do it on our own right away, then online calculators aren't great idea, then would need the coins. If its still too fast and we are affecting the result, then may need slower method. If that still doesn't help then would just need another system where its instant or premade and same for all at that time.