Anybody in?

[bruce_g]

Forgive me, I am but an Egg and new to this Community...I have been taught by I-Ching for many years and i thank the I-Ching for that. i have reconciled my view of what the interconnectedness of the Universe is, as a big Rubics Cube...as each thing moves, so does everything else. The Question becomes part of the Dance, and therefore the umbilical cord to the Answer. The Answer is always out there...it is the Right Question that is difficult to find.

Hi Pooka,

The Rubik’s Cube is an interesting example to illustrate the universe. Is the universal cube ever complete? I think it’s always in motion. Perhaps it’s possible that the physical universe, as we know it, may at some point stop; each block and color perfectly made into an organized box. That, in effect, will be the end of the world. But I don’t believe in ends. Every end leads to a new beginning, the seed of the beginning is contained in the end. So in that sense, the even bigger Rubik’s Cube is never finished.

 

[toganm]

Actually, this saying is incorrect. A bird doesn’t sing because it has a song. Birds sing for many reasons, all life-becoming: to greet each other, to define their territories, to let their parents know they're hungry, to attract a mate, to warn each other of approaching danger and to tell each other about good feeding spots.

Well that makes it correct in my point of view as the bird uses the song to express the feelings, messages and for all the reasons you have given, accros. She does not sing because she has the answer. One does not have to give an answer for every event that is happening around himself/herself. The beauty is being able to enjoy the moment and life. Hence the singing to me explains joy, grief, excitement,sadness, anger, fear are all part of the natural events and being with these emotions in a timely manner, not too short or not too long the bird will sing a song for every occasion and that will not be for an intellectual reason.

Togan

 

[autumn]

I asked the I-ching, "Who do we speak to when we divine?"

34 unchanging.

 

[my_key]

I asked the I-ching, "Who do we speak to when we divine?"

34 unchanging.

Hhum. The power of teh great . The divine that is within us all and seeks to answer our every question.......
To fearlessly go where many men (and particularly ladies) have gone before. One small step for man one hugh leap for mankind. !!!

Love and light

Mike

 

[autumn]

Thanks ( a lot)

 

[bruce_g]

I asked the I-ching, "Who do we speak to when we divine?"

34 unchanging.

Hi Autumn.

Interesting that your question wasn’t limited to the Yi but to divination in general. I wouldn’t have expected this answer, but it’s the answer you got, so let’s see what it might be saying.

First thing I notice are the trigrams, thunder over (or in) heaven. That could signify the “voice of God” (call it whatever suits you). Another metaphor might be the ‘energy of heaven’.

LiSe:
Thunder up in Heaven: great vigour
The noble one will not tread a path without ritual

Interesting, this idea of ritual as preparing the way for the oracle to speak. We ponder, throw coins, contemplate the image, engage our creativity, and from that our answer comes.

I wonder, how much of this answer has to with your relationship to the Yi? 34 is something firm, solidified, focused and determined. 34 stands alone on its own merit. Might this reflect how you see yourself, or that part of your Self? If so, then it makes sense that that is who the oracle is to you.

 

[autumn]

Hi, Bruce. I appreciate your response- that's an insightful description of 34.

It's interesting that you associate 34 with me as an individual, instead of as an answer that flows into the discussion for everyone. I don't know whether it describes my relationship with the oracle, or if it was answered as I intended to ask the question, in a "truth seeking" (assuming this is valid) kind of way. I don't see myself as a "34" kind of person, and I wouldn't have expected this answer for how I see the oracle, either.

 

[bruce_g]

Hi, Bruce. I appreciate your response- that's an insightful description of 34.

It's interesting that you associate 34 with me as an individual, instead of as an answer that flows into the discussion for everyone. I don't know whether it describes my relationship with the oracle, or if it was answered as I intended to ask the question, in a "truth seeking" (assuming this is valid) kind of way. I don't see myself as a "34" kind of person, and I wouldn't have expected this answer for how I see the oracle, either.

The reason I made that association with you is to consider the possibility that Yi speaks to each one individually, on a subjective level. There’s the mirror concept to consider, even though you phrased the question with “we”.

hmm, maybe the Yi is ‘stone-walling’ you from knowing? Yi seems p r e t t y secretive about that sort of stuff. I always get the impression of 34 as having stubbornly folded arms.

 

[hilary]

That was a very interesting way of phrasing the question. Who we speak to - not necessarily the same thing as who speaks to us?

 

[hilary]

By the way, I can't think of 34 without thinking of tree-strength - the kind you become aware of if you lean back against an old tree and look up.

 

[autumn]

The reason I made that association with you is to consider the possibility that Yi speaks to each one individually, on a subjective level. There’s the mirror concept to consider, even though you phrased the question with “we”.
hmm, maybe the Yi is ‘stone-walling’ you from knowing? Yi seems p r e t t y secretive about that sort of stuff. I always get the impression of 34 as having stubbornly folded arms.

Hmmm.. I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. It was probably just turning the question back around on me- by giving me this picture, for example,

By the way, I can't think of 34 without thinking of tree-strength - the kind you become aware of if you lean back against an old tree and look up.

That's definitely what I am looking for and seeking when I ask a question. "Please represent inner strength for me". I didn't think much about how I phrased the question, but if you think about the question meaning, "who am I seeking?", maybe 34 was a perfect answer.

 

[bruce_g]

Ok, I just asked the same question: Who do we speak to when we utilize the oracle?
A: 12, line 1 to 25.

It’s ain’t tellin’.. well, it is, but not the answer we were seeking, lol.

 

[bruce_g]

Still, line 1 gives pause:

"Uproot Mao-grass, interlaced roots. Gather them together. Determination: auspicious for expansion. ~ LiSe

"Pulling up thatch grass roots
And with this, another cluster
Persistence is promising and satisfying ~ Bradford

Going back to the subjective quality of my question, I can relate to this answer. It moves a standstill into the creative natural order, without pretense. Which amounts to seeking and then seeing something as it is.

But I have to say that, here is where Chris' ideas make me think, because I believe I could make a useful answer to this question, regardless of which hexagrams/lines I received.

 

[martin]

Perhaps different people don't speak to the same X when they consult the Yi?
I just asked who I (instead of we) speak to and the answer was, yes, 34 again. But with line 2 and 4 changing, the second hexagram is 36.

 

[autumn]

It’s ain’t tellin’..

It appears so. That's odd. But what is even more odd is that consulting an oracle is such a natural, ancient process for most people. It's quite irrational, but it's more fundamental, from a historical perspective, than any ritual in ancient religion to ask the universe to speak to you. So there is something very natural and fundamental to our beings in being primitive, irrational beings Something about a fundamental drive to merge with the universe like a newborn baby merges with its mother and erase the perception of being separated from the world.

And, from the reductionist biological perspective, *they* just say, well that's the limbic system of the brain trying to re-create its infant and womb experiences, or something like that. And of course you can read it that way, it's one perspective of what anything in the universe really is. But unlike those who partake of this perspective, I don't agree that simply because you can explain something one way, that means that is the only way to look at it.

But, I do wonder what those here who follow a clear religious path think about who we speak with, and why they would say the oracle won't answer.

 

[autumn]

Perhaps different people don't speak to the same X when they consult the Yi?
I just asked who I (instead of we) speak to and the answer was, yes, 34 again. But with line 2 and 4 changing, the second hexagram is 36.

36, covering, hiding.

This follows a pattern I have often gotten after receiving an answer with an unchanging hexagram, and then asking the same question a second time for clarity. Most of the time I get the same hexagram again, but the second time with moving lines. I have to admit, my latent skepticism caused me to question if this wasn't a feature of the seed program in the random number generation program. But, here that can't be the answer.

 

[autumn]

Second thought-
Actually, I've always considered 12.1 to mean leaving a place, taken from Wilhelm's commentary on the line describing someone who retires. So, in this context, I would interpret the answer, "one who has left this place, or is separated from you". And 34<36 as a hidden source of power- which says a little bit more than, "not telling".
Just a thought.

 

[martin]

Hmm, perhaps it's a feature of the oracle? Or of the Universal Random Number Generator? And that is God, right? Or?

 

[martin]

My guess is that the oracle tells it all. But we, well, can we understand what it says?

 

[nicky_p]

Who do we speak to when we utilize the oracle?
A: 12, line 1 to 25.

Could be saying the dead and the undead all interlinked? As in those that have passed and those that may come.

Actuallly just seen before I've gone to post that Autumn has said a similar thing - lol

 

[martin]

What I find interesting is that 36 is typically alone (possibly isolated) and I changed the question from 'we' to 'I' ...
Yet I get the same answer as Autumn, 34. I wonder if the Yi is saying here that we are all speaking to the same when we use the Yi, or perhaps that this I-you difference is irrelevant on its level, that it's all 'we' there?
12.1 also speaks of interconnectedness.

 

[autumn]

What I find interesting is that 36 is typically alone (possibly isolated)

It's also a candle burning in the darkness, a light hiding beneath a cover. Lines 2 says power is successful when it remains in balance, in eqilibrium, and its transitional hex is 55, abundance, choice. Line 4 says "the hedge opens with no entanglements", (conjures up an image of hexagram 25-a lack of sin? without generating unuseful karma?) and its transitional hex is 11, peace.

You are speaking to the power within you to make balanced, natural, choices.

 

[denis_m]

I asked the I-ching, "Who do we speak to when we divine?"
34 unchanging.

My personal nickname for #34 is The Power of the Will. I define #34 this way for a few reasons. One is the contrast with #33; another is the lines that talk of butting and testing the envelope. I've long believed that the I CHING has a way to talk about any fundamental issue. The problem of personal will is a big one, and perhaps this is the I CHING's focal point for it.

I think #34 is an fine answer to Autumn's question, because divination at some level must be an expression of one's Will, or a way of understanding one's own will. Perhaps divination points to a far-reaching will, and the continuum of our personal, more narrow will with that.

Autumn also said: "...consulting an oracle is such a natural, ancient process for most people....Something about a fundamental drive to merge with the universe like a newborn baby merges with its mother and erase the perception of being separated from the world." This is a need or drive that operates in people, regardless of how it is judged. Again, a matter of will.

It's uncanny that Martin got #34.2.4 > #36. It starts with probing into one's will, both the more personal, and the kind that is more attuned (so the hedge opens)! This lands us at #36 because often the answer is an insight we must hold within the heart. Keep it to ourselves, turning it over in our thoughts. Not something to tell co-workers about, but it informs what we do, like an ecstatic secret. But also feeling like light buried under a bushel sometimes.

Bruce's reading of 12.1> 25 speaks to another side of divination---people turning to it because they want to move on but may feel stuck. What it shows them is the moment of pure possibility that is #25---not a substitute for dogged work (#25 has not yet proven whether it is a true beginning or a transient flash), but a chance to see things anew.

Denis

 

[lightofreason]

Perhaps different people don't speak to the same X when they consult the Yi?
I just asked who I (instead of we) speak to and the answer was, yes, 34 again. But with line 2 and 4 changing, the second hexagram is 36.

The 'truth' is that ALL of the IC applies to the question - showing the width/depth of meaning we are trying to deal with. EACH hexagra, offers a valid perspective to the question but LOCAL CONTEXT will 'favour' a sorting og the hexagrams into the best-fit/worst-fit orderings - and tossing coins etc does not guarantee the 'best fit' every time. Furthermore the generality, the universality of the question favours the 'all 64' apply equally - get more local and the sequence of hexagrams from best-to-worst is strengthed, biased, by local context.

Thus to aske the original question then requires review of all hexagrams and how each contributes to the answer.

Chris.

 

[heylise]

I love all answers a lot. And I agree with Chris: this question is so wide, that every hexagram can apply. It is when I ask that question for me personally, that I get a 'better fit'. Although I guess that is not along Chris' line of thinking.

Autumn: 34, Thunder high in Heaven. That thundering voice high up there, were the spirits live and God and gods and whatever one chooses to name it. Thunder is not tangible, but it can hit you, through the lightning bolt or the earthquake, harder than most tangible things. The voice of the dragon.

Bruce: 12.1 to 25. Heaven above Earth. Heaven who imposes his will, and his laws are very severe. Earth simply has to listen, no way to object... And 12.1: I have for that "When life-energy stagnates and nothing interests you anymore, then start digging", very much the way I feel often when I decide to throw the coins. But even for a small question, the reason is always, that I have no answer (yet) myself, and have to dig.

Martin: 34 to 36. Hexagrams 35 and 36 are to me day and night. Daylight is all those things you need for making a life/living. Breeding a multitude of horses. The 'light' of night is 36, "The noble one governs the masses using darkness and also brightness". Darkness is not just a lack of light, it is another way of seeing things. Yi gives this kind of sight, the complementary to daylight. The judgment says: Harvest: a determination about difficulties. Determination is not just perseverance (Wilhelm) but also consulting the oracle, and following the advice it gives to you.

So I asked too, what do "I" speak to, when I divine. Not just the/any oracle, but all divining. Including whatever else which can be called divining.
Hex.1, unchanging...

LiSe

 

[martin]

It's also a candle burning in the darkness

I like that image I think of 36 basically as 'inner light'. Or 'inner seeing', to see with the inner eye (or more in general, to perceive with the inner senses). As LiSe says:

Darkness is not just a lack of light, it is another way of seeing things. Yi gives this kind of sight, the complementary to daylight.

Perhaps divination points to a far-reaching will, and the continuum of our personal, more narrow will with that.

Makes a lot of sense to me in this context. The personal will (thunder) aligns with the universal will (heaven), or in traditional christian speak 'the will of God'. As in the Lord's Prayer: 'thy will be done'.
The same trigams - thunder and heaven - in the second hexagram (25) of Bruce's answer .. but LiSe has only heaven. The personal will is dissolved into the universal?

 

[bruce_g]

I’ve been chewing on this since yesterday, and have semi-concluded a couple of things.

Regarding my reading of 12.1-25, it did/does reflect the time I’m in, what Wilhelm calls “benumbed”, and distant, separated, etc. Funny that my horoscope says the same thing. This gave rise to the thought that who I/we speak to is a condition of the time or cycle. So all hexagrams apply to this broad question, but the specific applies to the moment.

This goes back to what I was digging for with Autumn: the subjective qualities involved with the person asking, and also the qualities of the moment the question is asked. Yi is “all that”.

 

[martin]

Perhaps the answer I got also reflects the time I'm in. I felt kind of imprisoned (36?) due to health problems and lately I use quite a lot of force and will (34) to break out.
It goes well, horns not entangled (yet).

 

[rosada]

Visualizing you whole and hearty, martin.

 

[rosada]

Nicky, your idea that we are speaking to the dead and undead all interlinked makes alot of sence. Consider 11 is Peace, and when we are at Peace all is known, no secrets are hid, all of man's knowledge from past and present is available to everyone psychically. But The Future is not in the Universal memory bank yet as it has never been experienced. All we have is the past and the present and that is not the future, but perhaps this is what is discribed by 12.1 - taking everything known and hoping this will some how connect us to The Unknown, 25. The Unexpected. So by consulting the I Ching we are asking to move beyond the past and present and speak to The Future?