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Anyone working with "The Medical I Ching " by Miki Shima?

RindaR

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if so, what do you think of it?
 

diamanda

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I haven't read it, but your question made me curious. It would be good to hear from anyone here who has read it. This is what a couple of people say about it in the comments/reviews on amazon:

As a licensed practitioner of Chinese Medicine, I found the book to be accurate in Chinese terms, but far too limited and superficial. The language of Chinese Medicine is used here, and will be difficult for a layperson to understand unless they have done a fair bit of reading on the subject prior. The translation of Chinese Medical conditions into Western terms invariably proves inaccurate. The book is great idea from someone who I'm certain understands the topic, but somehow it doesn't really succeed.
it turned out to be very confusing in technics, and awful depressive in explanation
 

bradford

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meh.
The translation used isn't horrible, but I didn't see much relationship between text and prognosis.
 

jukkodave

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It is fundamentally flawed I think. The San Jiao divides the human into 3 and the use of Trigrams in the Hexagrams, as a means of definitions, diverts away from the principles of the San Jiao.
There is no obvious and natural or consistent way of dividing the body in two, that makes sesnse in terms of the Zang Fu.

The "terms" of the Trigrams have no clear correlations with any medical considerations. However I have found that it might possibly gove an insight into the psychological state, which is hardly surrprising if the Yi is a way to access the subconscious.

But as far as any use in a "medical" context it doesnt work in theory or practice.

Though perhaps if there was an understanding of the underlying principles, such that we might have a rational and coherent way of connecting 5, 8 and 12, the perhaps there might be medical possibilities. But it seems that until there is that knowledge and understanding that there isno way to properly "connect the two disciples in a resonant way.

Dave
 

legume

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haven't read it but i looked inside... i wouldn't recommend it. i'd think using the internet for self-diagnosis to get oneself scared of death or own symptoms is equally handy as the types of prognosis in the book. can't see how it can be useful in any TCM practice, to be honest.

the author uses fair prognosis vs poor prognosis, very poor prognosis and grave prognosis, mentioning possible death few times throughout the book, along with randomly throwing in: brain tumors, anorexia, aphasia, cancer, contagious respiratory illness with fever, inherited diseases, etc. and connecting them in some inexplicable way with the lines of hexagrams.
 

jukkodave

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and connecting them in some inexplicable way with the lines of hexagrams.
I think that is one of the central reasons as to why the contents of the book dont work, There are no rational, coherent or logical reasons or explanations,
 

Gmulii

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I liked it. But in practice only thing I still consider from there is that "returning spirit" can show a patient will die, while "wondering spirit" can show them falling in coma. The rest... There are parts of WWG(returning and wondering spirit for example, even though everyone can use them as "types of hexagrams" to actually understand them we need knowledge of the Palaces in WWG). But it isn't WWG really as he isn't actually using the lines, while if we want to use the text with the lines there are also translations that I like more.

So can't recommend the whole book, but parts of it are interesting.
 

jukkodave

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I liked it. But in practice only thing I still consider from there is that "returning spirit" can show a patient will die, while "wondering spirit" can show them falling in coma. The rest... There are parts of WWG(returning and wondering spirit for example, even though everyone can use them as "types of hexagrams" to actually understand them we need knowledge of the Palaces in WWG). But it isn't WWG really as he isn't actually using the lines, while if we want to use the text with the lines there are also translations that I like more.

So can't recommend the whole book, but parts of it are interesting.
HI Gmulii,

Intersting concepts "returining spirit" and "wandering spirit" , but not used in any form of Chinese Medicine that has been evaluated to work.

You dont say how the parts are "interesting". Is it because isolated parts agrgee with your conceptual framework and you consider they validate what you believe, or is is that they make you think, question and examine what you think.

As WWG is vbased on Trigrams and no one seems able to justify anything about them at all, not even in connection with the Yi let alone how they might correlate with Chinese Medicine I cant see how the two are connected, either positively or negatively, to make any comments on the book itself.
Unless I misunderstand you. But it seems that you are saying WWG is relevant to Chinese Medicine but the book doesnt really use it.

Perhaps a separate thread on WWG might be suitable and then we can go onto a detailed discussion on the merits, or lack of merits, of WWG. As that might be a good way of examining the concepts and beliefs of Trigrams in some detail, that might be rather useful.

Dave
 

Gmulii

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HI Gmulii,

Intersting concepts "returining spirit" and "wandering spirit" , but not used in any form of Chinese Medicine that has been evaluated to work.
From what I remember the author was practicing medicine in a hospital in China and was making Hexagrams for each patient and case. I think we had the info in the Five Arts forums somewhere...

So it more then covers the evaluation I would need to be interested in a material.
But that is me. Now, what you believe in is entirely your business and I don't really care much about that. : )
 
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jukkodave

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From what I remember the author was practicing medicine in a hospital in China and was making Hexagrams for each patient and case. I think we had the info in the Five Arts forums somewhere...

So it more then covers the evaluation I would need to be interested in a material.
But that is me. Now, what you believe in is entirely your business and I don't really care much about that. : )
It doesnt where or what he was doing if it makes no sense, it makes no sense.
The "evaluation of the material"- you havent detailed what that is nor explained it.
It is not what I believe, I am referencing the lack of rational and coherent, or even any logic to the arguments you present.

But I nitice that you dont actually respond the the specific points that I make. So I assume that you have no way of responding to those points, no answers or arguments that could support any aspect of anything that uses 5E, or anything else that you use.

I think it is the other way around. What you "believe" is entirely your business. As there seems to be nothing but belief or you would be able to respond in detail to the specifics of what I am raising, instead of avoiding the details that might expose the holes and contradictions, the inconsistencies, the lack of rational or coherent argument to justofy what you are presenting.

You even quote particular things which validates the questins and points I am raising and then ignore the very things that you have said yourself.
But if that is what you wish to believe!

I would remond you that a "discussion" is not just the repitition of what you believe, it is a two way conversation on particular points. If you keep ignoring the specific points all the time and not responding to them that is not a discussion.

All the best Dave
 

Gmulii

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But I nitice that you dont actually respond the the specific points that I make.
And as I already said, if you want response on a specific point feel free to formulate it in one short sentence and response may come.
I'm not digging into that much text to find out what exactly you expected response on...
 

jukkodave

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Jukkodave said"But I notice that you dont actually respond the the specific points that I make."

And as I already said, if you want response on a specific point feel free to formulate it in one short sentence and response may come.
I'm not digging into that much text to find out what exactly you expected response on...
That really is a rather selective requirement. Are you suggesting that only one point at a time in each post should be made, even though they are inter related/

But you either managed to "dig" into that much text to be able to respond in the way you wanted to, by ignoring the specifics. or you havent been reading my posts and only picking bits that you thought you might be able to justify in some way.

But why then, if the vlome concerns you have you responded extensively when it suited you and why have not not resonded to single points as they came along. Even if you only dealt with a couple at a time, by now you might have covered quite a few if not most of them.

If you think that fundamentals and underlying principles can be discussed in short sentences, when everyone seems to be finding any language or comprehension of them anyway, then they arent likely to be fundamentals.

Setting up a Catch 22 of your own making doesnt work at all.

Repeatedly ignoring specific points and not responding in detail to the actual points is hardly involving yourself in a dscussion, and now you expect me to list each and eeryp point that you have aready ignored. If you werent going to be able address them the first time around,as nothing has changed you arent going to magically find new information that is going to enable you to address them if I was to list them in short sentences, even if it was possible to do that for fundamental underlying principles and contradictins and discrepancies, that you clearly would have responded to if you had any way of doing that.

Dave
 

Gmulii

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is hardly involving yourself in a dscussion
Imagine you are standing on a hill and in the distance you see an endless army, all angry and mean, kicking trees and eating raw parts of other trees.
And as soon as they charge towards you yelling like crazy, you see somewhat bored looking person that yells in your ear, through the battle cries of the incoming horde - "now, fight these guys and if you win I will start to brush my teeth every day".

Now, if it was me, while there may be a few seconds confusion, actually deciding if I should yell at him that he should be brushing his teeth anyway, at the end of it I would just gather my stuff and run in the opposite direction quietly as fast as I can.
And in that time if the person yells after me "Why aren't you staying, don't you care about my teeth?!", I will just keep running without looking back...

Now, that may give the impression I think brushing our teeth often, is not good or I lack information to prove it is. But it isn't the case. To be fair information can probably be found easy enough, however that isn't the issue.
I do believe brushing our teeth often is a good thing, but the question is how much effort I'm willing to spend in convincing someone in that. And the answer(as we can see) is not much.

So on the specific topic... I don't respond to most of what is brought up not because of lack of information, but because what you believe is "rational and coherent" doesn't change much for me or most people on the Earth... I know this systems work since I've been using them for years and have been in environment where people have been using them for most of their life.
in that way there isn't anything for me in this conversation really. I know what I know, I don't care much if you believe in them or not, as you aren't practicing them anyway, so its not like that will change anything... Making the whole thing not worth much effort.
 

jukkodave

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Imagine you are standing on a hill and in the distance you see an endless army, all angry and mean, kicking trees and eating raw parts of other trees.
And as soon as they charge towards you yelling like crazy, you see somewhat bored looking person that yells in your ear, through the battle cries of the incoming horde - "now, fight these guys and if you win I will start to brush my teeth every day".

Now, if it was me, while there may be a few seconds confusion, actually deciding if I should yell at him that he should be brushing his teeth anyway, at the end of it I would just gather my stuff and run in the opposite direction quietly as fast as I can.
And in that time if the person yells after me "Why aren't you staying, don't you care about my teeth?!", I will just keep running without looking back...

Now, that may give the impression I think brushing our teeth often, is not good or I lack information to prove it is. But it isn't the case. To be fair information can probably be found easy enough, however that isn't the issue.
I do believe brushing our teeth often is a good thing, but the question is how much effort I'm willing to spend in convincing someone in that. And the answer(as we can see) is not much.

So on the specific topic... I don't respond to most of what is brought up not because of lack of information, but because what you believe is "rational and coherent" doesn't change much for me or most people on the Earth... I know this systems work since I've been using them for years and have been in environment where people have been using them for most of their life.
in that way there isn't anything for me in this conversation really. I know what I know, I don't care much if you believe in them or not, as you aren't practicing them anyway, so its not like that will change anything... Making the whole thing not worth much effort.
A discussion is hardly a battle, so no need to run away from anything.

But why are you talking about "convincing" when you havent made any effort at all to dispel any of the contradictions or discreapancies or to address any of the specific points I have raised.
But I havent said that I "beleive " in anything rational and coherent or otherwise, so you cannot be reading my posts or must be ignoring the contents. I originally asked questions about 5E which decided to respond to, though you didnt respond to any points I raised and only presented what you already beleived in .
I appreciate that you believe that it works. But the question in such things that can be taught and learnt is that there must be a way of explaining "why" it works. Given that the "world" knows that humans are capable of believing anything and there is a mountain of evience that shows that many practicis dont stand up to scrutiny when all the data is considered I would have expected a bit more of an attempt to explain and validate why it works as you think it does.

If you wish to believe it does and it works for you then that is fine for you, but I dont understand why you resoinded to my posts if you didnt intend to "discuss" anything.

Dave
 

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