Archetypal Qualities of Hexagrams

[Tihia Viatar]

As an afterthought to post#28:
Thinking about it some more,

1) There are no such things as errors or mistakes, just "happy little accidents". Thank you, Bob Ross. RIP
2) I'm certain there are many insights into archetypal and shadow energies when pre-heaven concepts are added to the equation, especially when the influence of pre-heaven onto post heaven experience is taken into consideration.

This could well bring forward deeper connection and insight into the subject matter for this thread. For me, right now, I am looking to focus on staying afloat in the waves of this post heaven ocean we all swim in.

Well, we will need to define very well early and later heaven first, don't we...
And I view it same way as Hans_K said.
Early haven - before its manifested. Later - after its manifested.
As far as geometry goes, seems to be different axis, but that is still too unclear to go there.

Archetypes... I think its too broad to pinpoint without specific Images to it. Can come from all over the place, but in general in Early Heaven I would assume either above(Qian) or below(Kun). So either coming from the Sun and future plans and outside or coming from the Earth and the past.

The others can bring Images, but not carry anything entirely new I think, at least in Early Heaven. Yet that Images can be called archetype as well... So it needs perfect definition of Archetypes in relation to the Five Arts as well, in my humble view.
As many of the terminology contains parts from all over the places.

 

[my_key]

That is a good broad brush way to define them.

I would say that everything being 'pre-form' (process) in Early Heaven, and everything in Post Heaven as 'form' or perhaps equating to Hans' definition of them both as being imaginal and matter.

There is another way of looking at the pre-heaven and post-heaven.
Pre-heaven is the world of the mind.
Post-heaven is the world of the experience.

Early Heaven has I feel a sense of the nebulous about it an the only two 'solid' archetypal constructs might be Heaven and Earth. The rest, may be a bridge too far to accurately define in this netherworld.

Chris Lofting titled his book on I Ching, based in Post Heaven context, " The Language of the Vague" so there may well be little chance to hit the nail on the head for Early Heaven if everything in Post Heaven is already blurry. The deeper the journey into Pre-Heaven one takes, the closer the journey will take towards the Unity of Tao, which as we all know is beyond naming. The Law of Diminishing Returns will most surly foul a venture into this ethereal landscape, whether it is the ever changing imaginations of the mind or the nebulous world of pre-manifestation.

So my curiosity has always pointed towards exploration of Post Heaven archetypal qualities. The one thing that we can be assured of in this dimension of reality is that nothing is perfect, Perfect definition is a rare thing that exists more in matter. A cow is a cow and a door is a door, until it is a jar , that is. (Old UK joke - word play on ajar).

Archetypal energy resides more in the land of the vague, and while names can be assigned - Hero, Mother, Rebel etc - defining them perfectly sounds a difficult task. Additionally, as they may well reside in both worlds there may lie uncertainty ahead and even failure. You or @Hans_K might be able to make a more informed view than I can about the images and symbology that they each represent in relation to the Five Arts. Finding true correspondence is rarely an exact art and the best we can do to match things up, is to give it a whirl, see how close we might get, and make sure we have a bit of fun along the way.

Han, started the fun part earlier in the thread, and I added to the fun by beginning to put together a short list of possible correspondences. Who knows if it is to become more extensive or more clearer?

 

[Hans_K]

You or @Hans_K might be able to make a more informed view than I can about the images and symbology that they each represent in relation to the Five Arts.

To be clear, by the Five Arts do you mean the 5 Phases or Elements (Wood Fire, Earth, Metal and Water)?

 

[Hans_K]

Early Heaven has I feel a sense of the nebulous about it an the only two 'solid' archetypal constructs might be Heaven and Earth. The rest, may be a bridge too far to accurately define in this netherworld.

Yet I do not think that is what is meant by the pre-Heavenly state.
The pre-Heavenly state is essentially the state where everything is in balance, each trigram faces its opposite so there is balance.
The arrangement on the main axes Heaven-Earth and Water and Fire, are the drivers of change (see thread All Change: Headless Dragons and Perseveringly Upright.)
From Chinese metaphysics, these are the 8 primal forces that make up everything, originating in Heaven and Earth and from this point of view there is nothing nebulous about it (which of course does not mean that you cannot experience it as nebulous).
As the pre-Heavenly state is the origin, the post Heavenly state is the effect or as Thia Viatar puts it in a previous post

Early haven - before its manifested. Later - after its manifested.

 

[Tihia Viatar]

To be clear, by the Five Arts do you mean the 5 Phases or Elements (Wood Fire, Earth, Metal and Water)?

In China and countries around it I Ching is kinda intertwined with other parts of life. Geomacy, martial arts(inner or outer), medicine(believe it or not but Traditional Chinese Medicine, what we know as acupuncture and herbal remedies actually use same elements, trigrams and ideas) and other stuff. Even cooking sometimes. All that is called Five Arts.
All Arts and systems there use Trigrams and Elements I think, but some use more.

But that is a little outside of the main idea here, but in the other topic that was where the period change come from. Was like a little more then a century ago found/developed by practitioners and systems that practice other parts of the Arts, very close in principle but in application there are additions and adjustments.

The idea is to not go too much in there here, I respect that, but I think from time to time we should mention it, as if a western I Ching practitioner/enthusiasts stumble on the ocean of knowledge there, its really nice thing for all.

 

[my_key]

Yet I do not think that is what is meant by the pre-Heavenly state.
The pre-Heavenly state is essentially the state where everything is in balance, each trigram faces its opposite so there is balance.

I get that Hans. Pre-Heaven is sometimes called Ideal. Here, in this word, I've seen the concept being carried of what is existing is existing only in the imagination and perhaps this is where things are at that place of desirable or perfect balance.

Once we step into Post Heaven, Chaos is the default mode and Balance is what we all strive for as we battle away against the darkness in the myriad beings and the doom carried by some of the archetypes in this dimension.

The arrangement on the main axes Heaven-Earth and Water and Fire, are the drivers of change (see thread All Change: Headless Dragons and Perseveringly Upright.)
From Chinese metaphysics, these are the 8 primal forces that make up everything, originating in Heaven and Earth and from this point of view there is nothing nebulous about it (which of course does not mean that you cannot experience it as nebulous).
As the pre-Heavenly state is the origin, the post Heavenly state is the effect or as Thia Viatar puts it in a previous post

I may not always come at these things from a purely Chinese metaphysics perspective. However, I do love to sit with the concepts, and alternative perspectives that are at play here.

Many traditions carry ideas of an ethereal world and a world of manifestation. Part of my perspective of 'Ideal Heaven' does lie in the idea that what resides there is pre any conditioning of this lifetime (although perhaps laden somewhat in ancestral shenanigans), primal if you like, and the origin of the contract that we make before we step firmly amongst the consequences that the contract will unleash upon us i.e. the conditioning we undergo and the chill and bitter winds that endeavour to combine in keep us off balance.

Both Heaven and Earth will play a part either contributing to primal directives, or in combining in infinite ways to help in addressing the consequences (or not). The nebulousness of Pre-Heaven is perhaps not only the unknown quality it holds in its distinct and unique sense of perfection, but also the lack of clear manifestation that potential holds.

Pre Heaven and Post Heaven perhaps sit a pressure or a power difference apart - between perfect and imperfect. The potential in that difference is to be made of what we will in this reality. This potential is in itself, then wholly nebulous until a part of it is released and realised and it attains a form.

 

[Hans_K]

Once we step into Post Heaven, Chaos is the default mode and Balance is what we all strive for as we battle away against the darkness in the myriad beings and the doom carried by some of the archetypes in this dimension.

This is one way of looking at it, another way is to see Post Heaven not as Chaos but as Change. After all, the King Wen arrangement of the trigrams indicates the cyclical rise and fall of Chi, the life force. So Change then becomes the default mode. When we can move with the rhythm of Change then balance is inherent. Only when we resist the rhythm of Change do things get out of balance.
So, instead of fighting against, it might be better to let go of the resistance and embrace all aspects. The Yin-Yang symbol shows that the dark and the light together create unity.

 

[my_key]

This is one way of looking at it, another way is to see Post Heaven not as Chaos but as Change.

I agree that's also a way look at the nature of Post Heaven. Chaos and Change can be seen as having an equivalence. All Change can be viewed as a disturbance to an existing Comfort Zone. At the first instance of Change the Comfort Zone is thrown into Chaos. How centred or grounded we are relates to how much of an impact the Change has on us. Regaining an equilibrium may be an simple, quick process or there may be a life changing magnitude to how impactful the chaos of disturbance remains for us.

After all, the King Wen arrangement of the trigrams indicates the cyclical rise and fall of Chi, the life force. So Change then becomes the default mode. When we can move with the rhythm of Change then balance is inherent. Only when we resist the rhythm of Change do things get out of balance.

I agree, at the end of the Change process there will be a new balance. The circulation of life-force Chi during the process, though, seems to provide opportunities for many qualities of itself to be experienced.

As The Borg said "resistance is futile" (one for the Trekkie fans) and the sooner that the waves of chaos can be accepted into our life rhythm the sooner is a new balance established. It is perhaps a growing acceptance of the nature of Change that the speed at which the new energies are adsorbed and eventually absorbed that we reach a place of beneficial synergy more swiftly as our own maturation processes show their development.

The Hexagrams, as archetypes, evoke an initial disturbance into a situation. If, for the querent, the new hexagram energy only sticks to the surface it is likely to be rubbed off, however if it is allowed to get under the skin then the junzi attains a new position of balance.

Once the Hero has displayed courage and fought a brave fight there is no turning back. The chaos that resided in his old un-Hero guided state of being is no more; it has changed. The Rebel Archetype that relies on nonconformity, rebellion, and revolution embodies the passion of Change. The rhythm of this form relies on the introduction of varying levels of Chaos to challenge the status quo that is held firm within the Comfort Zone.

So, instead of fighting against, it might be better to let go of the resistance and embrace all aspects. The Yin-Yang symbol shows that the dark and the light together create unity.

Indeed it would be. People, sometimes chose to pick a fight with their resistance, which is never a good plan. It's important to remember that Stilling, itself evokes a process that is laden with degrees of turbulence and chaos (52.2, 52.3). The energy required by different people in different life circumstances, requires that light and dark are both used in differing amounts and for different spans of time in order for the resistance to be let go of. Sometimes it may be required for the letting go to be assisted by the prudent use of a set of bolt cutters to release the chains for a full embrace to become truly expressed.

Walking in Unity. Now we have it now we don't! Or maybe we never get it at all. The typical roller-coaster tightrope walking challenge of life.