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- Thread starter AnitaS
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No, I don't think this is advised anywhere in the Yi...not even hex 8. Not as far as I know anyway.
tiziano
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Neither do I, and this is what I personally think about that, or at least my current status of knowledge.
Hexagram 8 (especially when unchanging) is traditionally considered to advise a further divination. This is because of the sentence in the Judgement saying "原筮元永貞，無咎。", which in Wilhelm/Baynes is translated as: "Inquire of the oracle once again / Whether you possess sublimity, constancy, and perseverance; / Then there is no blame." As far as I know, this has always been understood as a single divination.
Now, the phrase "whether you possess" in the translation has been interpolated: the chinese text literally states: "original/manipulate stalks/grand/prolonged/determination/no/misfortune" (Kunst). Modernists actually read 元亨 (sublime success) instead of 元 (sublimity), and split the sentence in two halves: the reconstructed meaning is "(In a) first divination (this means): supreme [offering]. (In a) long range augury: no misfortune" (Rutt, after Kunst; text in round brackets is mine). So according to them no further divination is suggested.
Modern translators prefer to be more literal and to leave the ultimate decision about the meaning to the consultant himself. So they generally take 原 as meaning "to examine from the roots, to go back to the beginning". For instance, Huang has: "Examine the divination: / Sublimely persevering, steadfast and upright. / No fault."; Karcher: "Trace the oracle to its wellspring. Trial: an ever-flowing Source. This is not a mistake."; Hilary: "At the origin of oracle consultation, / From the source, ever-flowing constancy. / No mistake."; Javary: "Examine again using yarrow stalks. / Fundamentally durable omen. / No fault."; Bradford Hatcher finds a compromise with modernists: "For a first consultation, supreme and enduring commitment / Not a mistake".
Tuck Chang, who is a traditionalist but also has a respectful eye for some of the modern conceptions, translates: "To divine twice (or to divine very prudently), it must possess origination (i.e. the spring of goodness) and be everlasting as well as persist (in righteousness); no fault (or calamity)."
I think that the question here is about both prudence and depth. Hex 8 is about the so-called (and today very popular) "law of attraction", which is something you can't control directly because it happens spontaneously; you can cultivate yourself to attract what really helps you to grow (i.e. what your greater and inner self wants), but then it just happens or doesn't happen. It is also a question of correct timing, because arriving too late means misfortune and failure. Therefore the greatest prudence is required. You have to be sure that your question was the right one and need to go in depth into it, so if you receive 8 unchanging you should "go back to the source of (your) consultation", examining its deepest motives, and possibly individuating a question that was behind the one you asked.
So IMO it's not about asking two times the same question. Rather, if you think about hex 4 and its "if he asks two or three times, it is importunity", this is kind of the opposite. Hex 4 says: "don't ask again -- you don't need to know anything else, just try to understand what I've already told you!"; while hex 8 says: "there's something deeper that you need to know -- track back your motives and then ask again!"
Hexagram 8 (especially when unchanging) is traditionally considered to advise a further divination. This is because of the sentence in the Judgement saying "原筮元永貞，無咎。", which in Wilhelm/Baynes is translated as: "Inquire of the oracle once again / Whether you possess sublimity, constancy, and perseverance; / Then there is no blame." As far as I know, this has always been understood as a single divination.
Now, the phrase "whether you possess" in the translation has been interpolated: the chinese text literally states: "original/manipulate stalks/grand/prolonged/determination/no/misfortune" (Kunst). Modernists actually read 元亨 (sublime success) instead of 元 (sublimity), and split the sentence in two halves: the reconstructed meaning is "(In a) first divination (this means): supreme [offering]. (In a) long range augury: no misfortune" (Rutt, after Kunst; text in round brackets is mine). So according to them no further divination is suggested.
Modern translators prefer to be more literal and to leave the ultimate decision about the meaning to the consultant himself. So they generally take 原 as meaning "to examine from the roots, to go back to the beginning". For instance, Huang has: "Examine the divination: / Sublimely persevering, steadfast and upright. / No fault."; Karcher: "Trace the oracle to its wellspring. Trial: an ever-flowing Source. This is not a mistake."; Hilary: "At the origin of oracle consultation, / From the source, ever-flowing constancy. / No mistake."; Javary: "Examine again using yarrow stalks. / Fundamentally durable omen. / No fault."; Bradford Hatcher finds a compromise with modernists: "For a first consultation, supreme and enduring commitment / Not a mistake".
Tuck Chang, who is a traditionalist but also has a respectful eye for some of the modern conceptions, translates: "To divine twice (or to divine very prudently), it must possess origination (i.e. the spring of goodness) and be everlasting as well as persist (in righteousness); no fault (or calamity)."
I think that the question here is about both prudence and depth. Hex 8 is about the so-called (and today very popular) "law of attraction", which is something you can't control directly because it happens spontaneously; you can cultivate yourself to attract what really helps you to grow (i.e. what your greater and inner self wants), but then it just happens or doesn't happen. It is also a question of correct timing, because arriving too late means misfortune and failure. Therefore the greatest prudence is required. You have to be sure that your question was the right one and need to go in depth into it, so if you receive 8 unchanging you should "go back to the source of (your) consultation", examining its deepest motives, and possibly individuating a question that was behind the one you asked.
So IMO it's not about asking two times the same question. Rather, if you think about hex 4 and its "if he asks two or three times, it is importunity", this is kind of the opposite. Hex 4 says: "don't ask again -- you don't need to know anything else, just try to understand what I've already told you!"; while hex 8 says: "there's something deeper that you need to know -- track back your motives and then ask again!"
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Gua 04, as I read it, says
The first consultation informs
The second and third show disrespect
Disrespect deserves no information
Too many lack the ability to slow down and truly ponder an answer.
When nothing jumps out at them they go skittering off on this or that tangent.
Better I think to go slowly and deep than broad and shallow.
The first consultation informs
The second and third show disrespect
Disrespect deserves no information
Too many lack the ability to slow down and truly ponder an answer.
When nothing jumps out at them they go skittering off on this or that tangent.
Better I think to go slowly and deep than broad and shallow.
S
sooo
Guest
To stand by the source, even of divination - is how I interpret 8.
In practical terms it means keep it together, whatever "it" happens to be. The Upanishads dialogues argue endlessly to define "it", and people remain divided on it even today. But whatever "it" is, is the source, even of divination. That's how I interpret it.
Once, twice, thrice, I don't read where the Yi says to not continue on questioning, so long as you give respect to the first answer, and its source. As well the second, and so forth. A conversation and lesson doesn't always end when the first question is answered, but to go on asking the same question, even with different words, is foolish. I think most people walk away from someone who does that. Then it's too late to hold with them. They go on together without you.
I'm of the opinion that that's not always a bad thing. It just depends who and/or what you've come to hold onto. Is it the source?
In practical terms it means keep it together, whatever "it" happens to be. The Upanishads dialogues argue endlessly to define "it", and people remain divided on it even today. But whatever "it" is, is the source, even of divination. That's how I interpret it.
Once, twice, thrice, I don't read where the Yi says to not continue on questioning, so long as you give respect to the first answer, and its source. As well the second, and so forth. A conversation and lesson doesn't always end when the first question is answered, but to go on asking the same question, even with different words, is foolish. I think most people walk away from someone who does that. Then it's too late to hold with them. They go on together without you.
I'm of the opinion that that's not always a bad thing. It just depends who and/or what you've come to hold onto. Is it the source?