Asking a permission to go on with your question and cast a hexagram.

[diamanda]

Dear Diamanda:
I have the impression that in this forum few people have read «The Tao of I Ching». I believe that before judging in a hurry is a good practice to hear what a person has to say.

Hi Charly,
Yes it's very obvious that very few people here have read that, including myself. Thanks so much for providing the link. You have always been a great source of learning on this forum, I've learned so much from you over the years. Please keep up the good work! I'm hoping that others who are open-minded and eager to learn will benefit from these threads in the future. For anyone interested, the part describing the practice that the original poster mentioned is on page 65 of the linked PDF.

If you have time, please, read chapter 2.2 and share with us your conclusions.
I cannot be objective with Jou Tsung Hwa.
Maybe reason has nothing to do here but emotion. Consulting the Changes is far for being a scientific approach to problem solving. It requires maybe an inner attitude close to meditation, which is not consistent, accurate and well developped rational speech. Neither talking with oneself neither with one's imaginary friends. Only free flow of feelings with the practic goal of getting a little of insight.

I didn't know master Jou before, so as I mentioned I'm grateful for the link. I had a quick look at his bio. This guy was born in 1917 in a small Chinese rural town. He was very learned, became a professor of mathematics, "wrote over 30 math textbooks and was revered for his forward thinking and teaching abilities" (and that was just at the very beginning of his career). I'm not really concerned with how he chose to spend his free time I haven't read the whole 2.2 chapter yet but I'll get back to you when I do. I might start a new thread on that.

 

[diamanda]

Jou Tsung Hwa had the habit of mixing different traditions. He incorporated material from the Duanyi Tianji in his book which is a completely different way of using the Yijing, and without knowing its origin and usage you might be left to wonder why Hwa's book is so different from other books. He also uses Meihua Yishu (Plumblossom Numerology) in a way that it is not the 'normal' practice. That he refers to the usage of moon blocks (shenggao è�–ç*¶ in his book; normally called jiaobei ç*Šæ�¯) when consulting the Yijing fits this pattern: they are only used with temple or household oracles and serve no function in traditional Yi usage.

Still, he was a Chinese person writing about Chinese traditions. China is a vast country, so it would be impossible for anyone to document every single tradition in all areas in detail. So what you wrote actually means that he was "mixing different existing documented traditions". We simply cannot know all of them, because we did not grow up in that country. This is why it's invaluable to read a lot: because it's only by people writing about their country's traditions that we can learn about traditions. The fact that you or I have never heard of a particular tradition so far does not mean that that tradition does not exist.

 

[charly]

Hi, Diamanda:

I did suspect from the begining that Master Jou initiated his own, no less respectable, tradition. But everything has its roots and Jou had many entangled roots.

Nobody's perfect!

Your grateful,
Charly

P.D.:
Scrolling up, thank you for so much praise, I feel a little ashamed!
Ch.

 

[charly]

...
I think many of us agree too that if Mmvvdd80 feels it helps in doing a reading, then go for it. But the proof is always in the pudding and I don't think someone should do or not do something just because someone else - even a 'master' - says they should. Even the Buddha said, in essence, "don't believe me or blindly do what I say, but check it for yourself, to see if it's true or not."
Kindly, David

Hi, David:

Of course, I know what is the majority's opinion. When I saw the thread I was surprised that someone mentioned the practice of previously surveying the convenience for proceeding or not to a divination.

Then I remembered that it was among the ritual recommended in the book of Jou Tsung Hwa.

I did neved use nor it neither any kind of atmosphere or ritual. Even when I began learning with a dear friend who did use both.

I always used a pretty rationalist, non mystical approach and the authority of title was never a good reason for me. And, as you can see, Hou did not use «Master» in his books.

Possibly people like you would enjoy reading "The Tao of I Ching: Way to Divination" where he wrote things like these:

«The third point, and perhaps the more important thing, I can make about the I Ching is that you will understand nothing unless you spend time researching the meaning of the I Ching by yourself.

In addition, you will gain nothing if you do not like to exercise your judgement and imaginatiion; that is, if you always expect someone else to tell you what is right and how to do things.

The person who has some insight and is willing to take personal initiative can use the I Ching to make work more effective and enjoy life more fully.»

The Tao of I Ching. Way to Divination, by Jou Tsung Hwa, page 9/10.

Trust me, if you don't have already the book, it worths getting it while available.

Best wishes,

Charly

 

[hmesker]

So what you wrote actually means that he was "mixing different existing documented traditions".

That is a strange assumption. Why would what I wrote mean that he was 'mixing different existing documented traditions'? If that is true I would like to see where it is 'documented' that the usage of moon blocks with the Yijing is a 'tradition'. I know it is not. I have read my fair share of old Yijing books and practices. I am sure it is not a 'tradition.'

We simply cannot know all of them, because we did not grow up in that country.

That would assume that those who did grow up in 'that country' would know 'all of them' and that is not true either. The traditions of Yi usage in China are well documented and using moon blocks with the Yijing is not one of them.

This is why it's invaluable to read a lot: because it's only by people writing about their country's traditions that we can learn about traditions. The fact that you or I have never heard of a particular tradition so far does not mean that that tradition does not exist.

I beg to differ. I know pretty well what in the world of Yixue can be considered 'tradition' and what is a usage that is not 'tradition'. In the more than 35 years that I have been studying the Yijing, with the last 20 years a focus on the history and usage of the Yijing in China, I have never seen any mention of moon blocks in all the old Yijing literature that I have read so far.

But of course I might be wrong. I'll ask my friends from China.

 

[diamanda]

I would like to see where it is 'documented' that the usage of moon blocks with the Yijing is a 'tradition'. I know it is not.

By the looks of it, it is documented in Jou's book.

That would assume that those who did grow up in 'that country' would know 'all of them' and that is not true either.

My use of the word 'because' was syntactically wrong in that sentence indeed.

That he refers to the usage of moon blocks (shenggao è�–ç*¶ in his book; normally called jiaobei ç*Šæ�¯) when consulting the Yijing fits this pattern: they are only used with temple or household oracles and serve no function in traditional Yi usage.

Jou says that this practice can be used with Yi usage if desired by the querent, and you say it can't. He refers to it as a tradition, you say that he mixed traditions. So there's definitely tradition(s) involved here. The fact that you believe that 'moon blocks' serve no function in Yi usage, as far as you know, cannot discredit what he wrote. If you have evidence which categorically states that moon blocks have never been used, and can never be used in Yi usage, and serve no function in it, please share so that I can give it further thought.

 

[hmesker]

By the looks of it, it is documented in Jou's book.

That fact that he mentions the usage of moon blocks with the Yijing does not make it a ' tradition'.

Anyway, I have asked my friend from Taiwan. He says (after a lengthy explanation of what moon blocks are and when and how they are used):

Jou says that this practice can be used with Yi usage if desired by the querent, and you say it can't.

I did not say that. I said that moon blocks 'serve no function in traditional Yi usage.'

He refers to it as a tradition, you say that he mixed traditions. So there's definitely tradition(s) involved here.

Yes. The tradition of moon blocks practice mixed with the tradition of Yi divination practice. But moon blocks are commonly not used with the Yijing and as my friend from Taiwan pointed out this is probably a ' personal invention.'

The fact that you believe that 'moon blocks' serve no function in Yi usage, as far as you know, cannot discredit what he wrote.

It is not a 'belief'. And I never said they can't be used with the Yi. All I said is that it is not a tradition - it is not common practice.

If you have evidence which categorically states that moon blocks have never been used, and can never be used in Yi usage, please enlighten us.

The fact that Jou describes it in his book shows that at least one person combined moon blocks with the Yijing. But that does not show that it is common practice in China, and especially it does not show that it is a 'tradition'. Cambridge Dictionary defines 'tradition' as "a belief, principle, or way of acting that people in a particular society or group have continued to follow for a long time, or all of these beliefs, etc. in a particular society or group." And this is not the case with what Jou describes about moon blocks & Yijing.

 

[diamanda]

Great to know that a friend of yours in Taiwan already knew that "there are people who will use moon blocks when they consult the Yijing". So for sure Jou didn't just come up with this out of thin air.

To call it a "personal invention" doesn't make sense though. That would mean that each of those people independently of each other simply invented this practice. Not because they heard it or saw it somewhere, but just personally invented it, each on their own. It also implies that your friend knows for a fact that all those people each personally invented it. A very odd thing to say.

 

[Gmulii]

There was very nice example of a tornado in that book... : )
Permissions... Professionally isn't used, traditionally isn't used... Doesn't mean people can't use it, if it works for them.
If someone starts to ask a lot, it may become more a burden then something that will help...

One of the reasons it can't be used professionally, people good at this are payed a lot in Asia, so if for every second(50%) client they have to refuse reading would suggest severe problems with the system and the way they are utilizing it.

If someone is using it for themselves, awesome, if it helps...

 

[diamanda]

Hi Gmulii,

I personally don't use this, and it doesn't appeal to me. You're right that professionally it would be a mini disaster. I also agree that if it helps the querent, then yes great for them to use it.

My point is that if someone wrote about it in a book and referred to it as a tradition, a random friend of someone in Taiwan readily confirmed that some people do use this practice over there, and an unrelated forum member here posts and asks about it, then we can't just file it as a one-off personal invention of a particular someone who just came up with it by themselves.

 

[Gmulii]

If that is for this moon blocks:
https://exemplore.com/fortune-divination/chinese-jiaobei-or-moon-blocks-divination
From the article I get the impression they are used often enough.

However, I think that seems to be mentioned in the post itself:

they are only used with temple or household oracles and serve no function in traditional Yi usage.

So they are used in temples(I assume Taoist temples) and household oracles(I assume by people, but not professionals) and that means they aren't part of traditional Yi usage...

I'm not sure I agree here, reversing the last part seems to make more sense, no matter how we define traditional Yi usage, excluding taoist temples and household practitioners seems a bad idea.

However, with small change it can fit, we just replace traditional with professional.

This I very much agree with(I think we all do, so far), there are forums where we have professional practitioners from Singapore, Taiwan and many other places where Five Arts are respected and practiced, and where access to the net is free, enough.

And I have never seen in there moon blocks mentioned even though we had topics about every detail of trowing the coins one can think of... (example - what do you do if you are doing this professionally, you ask the person to trow and a coin falls to ground, and stand in the middle without a site up or down).

So we can just say they aren't used professionally, while they are used traditionally,I think we all agree here and we can move on . Otherwise we may have to get to why Taoist temples aren't part of traditional Yi usage and that may be tricky... ; )

 

[diamanda]

Thanks for the informative link, and info about Asian forums Gmulii. I always find it refreshing to learn something new.

For anyone who would like to read more about this apparently widespread Chinese divination tool, here's another link I found.

 

[Trojina]

Hi Gmulii,

I personally don't use this, and it doesn't appeal to me. You're right that professionally it would be a mini disaster. I also agree that if it helps the querent, then yes great for them to use it.

My point is that if someone wrote about it in a book and referred to it as a tradition, a random friend of someone in Taiwan readily confirmed that some people do use this practice over there, and an unrelated forum member here posts and asks about it, then we can't just file it as a one-off personal invention of a particular someone who just came up with it by themselves.

Yes we are perfectly well qualified to give our views on this idea as we were asked regardless of whether or not it is a tradition. And surely it scarcely looks like an ancient tradition does it. Indeed it is not an ancient tradition it seems.

Even if it were some ancient radition doesn't mean it's worth continuing. Foot binding of young girls was a tradition. I think it was a cruel practise. Are you going to claim I have no right to give a view on it because it's ancient Chinese tradition ?


Carol Anthony has some kind of method whereby a person can verify whether the interpretation they have come to is the 'right' one by tossing coins after the Yi cast. I have no time to look it up so details may be wrong but this was her invention and quite a misguided one IMO.

So yes I feel am at liberty to say it's not a great idea just as I am at liberty to say what I think of this practise. I don't think your objections are valid but rather repressive.

If someone asks an opinion here those who choose to reply have every right to give their opinion.

 

[diamanda]

The link is here:
http://www.labirintoermetico.com/09iching/Tsung_Hwa_Jou_The_Tao_Of_I_Ching.pdf
If you have time, please, read chapter 2.2 and share with us your conclusions.

Maybe reason has nothing to do here but emotion. Consulting the Changes is far for being a scientific approach to problem solving. It requires maybe an inner attitude close to meditation, which is not consistent, accurate and well developped rational speech. Neither talking with oneself neither with one's imaginary friends. Only free flow of feelings with the practic goal of getting a little of insight.

Don't you believe so?

Hi Charly,

The chapter describes a very elaborate ritual of preparation before consulting the Yijing. In my opinion this is a very personal matter, and each person chooses how to do this according to their inner nature. As you said in your other post, you don't really use any ritual, and your friend used many. I personally use only very few. I don't know what standard rituals are followed by the majority of Chinese people nowadays, but I suspect that they are more bound by tradition than we are. Then again, it's still down to the nature and judgement of a person how much tradition they decide to abide by or not. My conclusion is that following rituals and traditions is a very personal matter.

As about Yijing divination being reason, or emotion, or scientific approach, or meditation, or free flow, and so on, that's a massive discussion which would deserve its own thread (most probably there are many such threads here already). I believe each person has their own definition, according to their nature. I'm personally not that concerned about what the source of divination is, what interests me is that it works.

 

[Freedda]

Possibly people like you would enjoy reading "The Tao of I Ching: Way to Divination" ...., if you don't have already the book, it worths getting it while available

Charly, this thread is about one aspect of I Ching practice, while your posts are about Jou's book and method.

I suggests then that you might want to post about it in the I Ching News forum where you can then focus on Jou, his book and method.

 

[diamanda]

David I'm afraid you've misunderstood. Charly wrote exactly about what this thread is about, and he referenced a precise section in that book, which refers to precisely what this thread is about.

Adding an extra sentence to say you'd probably enjoy that book is no big deal. Or if it is, nobody should be allowed to mention a single sentence off-topic on any given thread. Which is of course impossible.

 

[Freedda]

David I'm afraid you've misunderstood. Charly wrote exactly about what this thread is about, ....

That is not my impression, and I don't think I misunderstood. Chariy did write some direct responses about the thread, but also wrote at length about Jou's book and about him being a master, and that we should respect the master ... and again about the benefits of the book ....

It seems appropriate then for him (I think he's a he?) to start a new thread if he wants to focus on Juo and the book ... And its seems quite appropriate for me to suggest it.

 

[charly]

That is not my impression, and I don't think I misunderstood. Chariy did write some direct responses about the thread, but also wrote at length about Jou's book and about him being a master, and that we should respect the master ... and again about the benefits of the book ....

It seems appropriate then for him (I think he's a he?) to start a new thread if he wants to focus on Juo and the book ... And its seems quite appropriate for me to suggest it.

Hi, David:

I did speak of Jou because it was maybe the only source, where the practice of the so called «asking for permision» is described, at least in english. People interested in I Ching don't use to read his book, being that Jou is better known for the work on Tai Chi Chuan.

I believed that some people might be interested in reading «The Tao of I Ching» in order to get an idea of the reasons why the practice can be adviced. (**)

I've read Jou's book many years ago but didn't use it. I have the impression, maybe wrong, that can serve two goals:

1) For beginers that eventually accepted the norm, it would reduce in 50% the frecuency of asking that often lead to little accuracy in the consults and poor deepening in the answers.

2) For experts, be amateurs, prefessionals or masters, a means for stenghtening the character, a self-imposed discipline that taken with patience cannot do much harm. (*)​

I think that Jou Tsung Hwa was in the thread from the very begining, other sources remained unsaid. What's the wrong in encouraging to read the book?

About the idea of another thread is maybe good, there must be anothers more qualified in the matter to begin.

All the best,

Charly

____________________________
(*) consulting for others, like clients or friends, it does little sense, I believe.
(**) better said «could»
Ch.

 

[charly]

...
As about Yijing divination being reason, or emotion, or scientific approach, or meditation, or free flow, and so on, that's a massive discussion which would deserve its own thread (most probably there are many such threads here already). I believe each person has their own definition, according to their nature. I'm personally not that concerned about what the source of divination is, what interests me is that it works.

Dear Diamanda:

I cannot agree more with you. That said, may I tell you how I see the problem of rituals? I believe that approaching rituals from the rational side leads necessarily to discourage its use and, maybe, even the practice of divination. It doesn't allow us to understand why for some people it is so important.

The RATIONALIST APPROACH is propper of TEACHERS that provide tested information and reasonings for the benefit of STUDENTS. Teachers and students meet to give or receive instruction. Both conducts try to mobilize the MIND ignoring the BODY. But people are body AND mind. The bonds between teachers and students are so to speak, «pasteurized», always trying to sterilize the body.

There is another approach, more HOLISTIC, based on the bonds between MASTER and DISCIPLE (1).

Masters don't try to appeal only the mind of disciples providing information. The masters usually resort to direct action on the disciples, they try not only to instruct them but also to condition them for the acceptance of the practices and ideas the masters advocate.

Such a relationship has more commitment, affects both the mind and the body, mobilizes ideas and emotions. That's why, for understanding ritual, I believe we must take on account the point of view of masters and disciples even if we have little charismatic tendency.

And here comes Jou... but that's another story.

All the best,

Charly
_____________________________
(1) For better understanding tihink on ZEN masters an disciples.
Ch.