Asking the Oracle " What is a Universal Truth "? > Gua 13

[jerryd]

Gua 13 no lines changing. From Stephen Karcher's interpertation in "Total I Ching/ Myths For Change", I find there is a possibility that one exixts but not in todays or yesterdays social climate.

1.Reasoning, people in harmony with each other or the whole of humanity, or in harmony with the origin of man may find a universal truth within like communities of like minded people.

2.Reasoning, universal truth can exist only within like minded cultures or within cultures which like mindedness is recognized.

3.Reasoning, a universal truth is not avilable in a world divided by conflicting social and religious differences but only in worlds which think like mindedly,

My Conclusion is, it is not likely in this world today a Universal Truth can be found or agreed upon or exist using these criteria, it may only exist as a limited truth agreed upon if you are a part of a like mindedness within a groupe or society!

Any discussion on this is open and encouraged.

I plan to post another 3 questions along this line of thinking in the future useing different material for my source readings.

 

[hilary]

Interesting question...

What would you say a universal truth was? Isn't the whole idea that it would be true at all times and in all cultures, no matter what anyone believed?

That's what I'd have thought, anyway, and from that perspective it sounds like Yi is being ironic. A 'universal truth' is just whatever everyone can agree on.

 

[aleyn]

I would say truth is something that can be verified (shown to be the case) by observation, insight, or experience. Truth has predictive power. If something is true in one situation, then it will also be true in similar situations.

I don't think truth has anything to do with popular agreement. Truth is true no matter what people think or believe.

A true statement: "The sun rises in the morning, sets in the evening." Nothing we can say or do will make this statement more or less true.

So - in a sense - all truth is universal. By definition.

The problem is that the universe of things that can be verified or shown to be true every time in every situation is quite small and limited in scope. Many of the ideas and beliefs we hold dearest cannot be validated or verified (proven) in any satisfactory way. Are they true? Maybe, maybe not.

But this much we know: the sun also rises.

 

[lightofdarkness]

What is a universal truth?

and you get the answer - likemindedness (13) ;-) how true ;-)

Fire as a base trigram has its focus on GUIDANCE which is what truths do - they guide. In this context is heaven reflecting SINGLEMINDEDNESS (one over many ;-))

Its interesting that the beginnings of 13 are described by analogy to 33 - being drawn-in to something, (but it also covers even being tricked ;-)) The completion of 13 is 101000 - 35, the drawing-in becomes bringing 'something' into the light, to one's attention (such as a 'truth').

The skeletal form of 13 is 31 - a focus on cooperative enticement (33 is competitive in its enticement).

There are three forms of truths:

(1) personal truths
(2) cultural truths
(3) species truths

the latter are 'universal' in that anything outside of that realm will be interpreted from within that realm and so appear as possible paradox if it IS 'outside'.

E=MC^2 is a universal truth from (3).

universals truths of (2) can elicit paradox that is only resolved through reference to (3). Universal truths of (1) elicit pardox that is only resolved by reference to (2) etc.

IOW we are dealing with hierarchy.

 

[lightofdarkness]

BTW - to understand the answer to the question in its fullest form, see the question through EACH hexagram for the WHOLE of the IC is applicable to any moment. Jerryd's particular moment put 13 'first' but all of the others follow.

Thus we have (a) a question of "what is a universal truth?" and we have (b) 64 answers, each of which have 64 aspects (that form the spectrum of the hexagram - e.g. 35, 31, 33 etc above referenced three of these aspects in hex 13).

From those general answers comes more details derived from our reflections.... and all of the details then become applicable so 'some moment' where context will collapse the set of possibles into an actual.


Chris.

 

[lightofdarkness]

BTW - the logic operator at work is IMP (implies). if we move from general to particular, so we end up with a sequence of Z <= Y <= X.

A personal truth (Z) is less than or equal to a cultural truth (Y) that is less than or equal to a species truth (X). A true universal thus forms as Z = Y = X (IOW there are no distinctions other than the universal - X does NOT infer Y as Y does NOT infers Z = BUT given Z I can infer Y and X, given Y I can infer X)

 

[jte]

I'm with Hilary on this one, although I'm not sure whether Yi was being ironic, or just, well, truthful.

Funny, too, Aleyn. Even something so seemingly incontrivertible as the sun rising turns out to be just an illusion based on our particular position and perspective vis-a-vis the actual sun. The earth spins and we perceive its "rise" from our particular spot. But our sensory experience turns out to have little to do with the actual facts, more like a byproduct of them. Even the word "rise" is incorrect, just a metaphor based on our perception.

Kinda makes you wonder how much else that we "know" is just partial/contexutalized understanding like this. So then, "truth" suddenly becomes real sticky, let alone the universal part. Are the facts, in fact, facts?!? =)

In its own way it's a wonderfully informative reading. We'll have to point it out to Dobro when he gets back so he can chastise Jerryd for asking questions he has no business knowing about. ;-)

- Jeff

 

[martin]

Hex 13 is about the kind of union that is found in the remote districts of the country.
Perhaps this suggests that relatively unsophisticated people are in some ways closer to the universal truth than the learned and cultivated?

I guess they are, they live it. While the learned, well, they talk about it.

 

[micheline]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I don't think truth has anything to do with popular agreement. Truth is true no matter what people think or believe. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I am wholly with Aleyn here...

therein lies our comfort.we can talk about it, and anything, all we want but the truth is indestructible. It resonates universally. rather like a smile. or a twinkle in the eye ; )

the diamond may be multifaceted ,
and described differently by different people,
but it is still a diamond. It doesnt really need to be described. and what's more, every one of us is a facet of the diamond.

a little off the subject, but since jerryd started by referring to Total I ching Myths of Change.....does anyone know if it is completely out of print? I cant seem to get one, and everytime I order a used copy from amazon, my order gets cancelled, because it was "just sold." NO book stores can order it for me.

 

[jerryd]

An aside to all who have contributed to this thread to this point, you all are correct in thinking in a personal way about this question. A universal truth will always presume what the answer to a given question may be. As there is not specific indication posed in asking what is a universal, then all may be correct answers. Hillary is spot on and Lightofdarkness thanks for your clear accessment it is enlightening. Ty.

 

[hester]

"I decline to accept the end of man. It is easy enough to say that man is immortal simply because he will endure: that when the last ding-dong of doom has clanged and faded from the last worthless rock hanging tideless in the last red and dying evening, that even then there will still be one more sound: that of his puny inexhaustible voice, still talking. I refuse to accept this. I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance."

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/williamfaulknernobelprizeaddress.htm

 

[heylise]

The noble one classifies the clans and reads the trails of creatures
(or according to Wilhelm: Thus the superior man organises the clans. And makes distinctions between things).

The character bi?n means distinguish, differentiate. It is composed of three parts: 2 criminals and a knife. The original character did not have the knife, and the criminals looked quite different then... It has the same meaning as another bian, which looks very similar, but is obsolete now, "Picture of an animal's track" --Karlgren. "The steps of a wild beast... The examination of the trail indicating the kind of animal, hence the extended meaning, to discriminate, to part, to sort out. The excreta giving the same indication, bi?n means dung in fen. ?Wieger.

I think 13 is about the ?tracks? of humanity. I never buy so much into those rather social meanings of 13, everybody being so nice to each other. I think it is about collective traits, basic to all of humanity. They are the reason one can recognize one?s fellow human being. The reason why it is at all possible to live together, to verdragen, to love.
A blueprint, which is in turn part of the blueprint of all life on earth, and earth itself, and that again part of the blueprint of universe.
For universal truth I think you have to look to those things which are common to all men ? beings - life. Sounds to me like a very good definition of universal truth..

In ?discussion? was a thread ?Hypothetical 13 alone??
A post from Wolverine, July 14, 2004 - 10:45 am:
Would it also be an injunction to consider your place as a human in terms of the larger world...?
More easily imaginable if you were on a desert island. Maybe your role would be to yield to your place in among the flaura, fauna and environment ... to experience yourself as a human led by (to an extent), or at least defined by the purposes and directions of these other factors. To join with your environment .. but also to recognise how you weren't defining it- but that it was defining you.
If you'd just got 7 on this desert island, you'd start making a shelter and organising wildlife...making it "yours"
while with 13 you're being advised to belong to it.

(Cannot resist: the Lotus grows in the mud.. might universal truth grow in the dung?)

LiSe

 

[heylise]

(forgot to change the Dutch word.. verdragen means to endure)
LiSe

 

[lightofdarkness]

Yes, The generic focus is singlemindedness (heaven top) in a context of guidance (fire bottom).

The fire part covers guidance (and so a path) within which is operating singlemindedness. In IDM the fire trigram reflects expansive bounding, the pushing out of a boudary.

If we map in emotions then to fire is the emotion of acceptance - of being 'in' my gang etc and so there is the sense of 'gang' competitiveness here where acceptance reflects the sense of 'us' vs 'them' and so of a BORDER and so of distinction making - the main point being that this border expands, moves outward with the aim of converting all difference (outside the border) to sameness (the ash inside the border) - and so includes a notion of conquest.

The opposite of fire is of a border that hold things IN - water (containment/control as compared to fire that is guidance/direction-setting (an ideology))

if you are 'in' a gang, all niceness is within the boundary, but is 'aggressive' in its expanding of that boundary - IOW being 'likeminded' is not a positive term, it also reflects a negative when viewed from outside the border/boundary. - Within the octet of fire-based hexagrams, 13 is an exaggeration of 36 where we no longer need to 'hide the light', we are with the 'likeminded' - we share the 'light' ;-)

Guidance doubled = direction-setting, promotion of an ideology regardless of it being positive/negative.

The opposite of 13, 7, is not interested in mind, it is interested in uniformity. How you think is 'personal' and done in your own time, the four minutes you get out of 24 hours ;-) all the rest of the time one's behaviour is in the form of 'standing orders' - you do things the Army way. Here any 'filtering' is acquired from outside (represented in the devotion to another in top (earth) operating in a context of contaimment))

Heaven on top reflects five-phase metal(exchange) and so a mediation dynamic overall.

As such, in water and 07, there is no alternative ideology as can be in 13-fire, there is only one ideology that is not recognised as such since no other distinctions are made!.

Water as base deals with containment - doubled it is control. When we map in emotions it covers issues of rejection, keep some out, keep some in (protect).

The exaggeration of 07 is 06 - compromise but strongly asserted as such, no surrender, meet halfway, no more, no less.

13 can thus represent a group of Buddhist priests, a chess club, a political group, or the SS. INSIDE that boundary all is 'friendly', if at times competitive ;-) But the 'burning' nature of that boundary as it move outwards can do damage as it can bring 'enlightenment' in the form of some ideology.

As mentioned before, the 24-ness of 13 is described by analogy to 33 - to be drawn in to something (i.e. 'my gang' etc)

The completion, 63-ness, is described through 35 which reflects bringing an ideology into the 'light' etc etc.

Chris.

 

[jerryd]

A great amount of insight and wisdom flows in this thread. Thank you all.

Martin,
as to the Yi being an ancient speaking to what we today see as ancients, their interpertation could only cover situations as their cultures would allow them to see.I am not a scolar of ancient Chinese nor will I ever pretend to be, there are adepts on this and other posts well versed in the ancients. I do believe we as students need to think in a progressive ways in our interpertations and apply what we can to fit with modernizing these type of questions and the replies. Perhaps if the Orical were to speak to an adept today about what a new up dated Yi might read there would be new words but the content would be the same? The focus may well be changed also for the new adept?

Aleyn,
Truth is as you say something which can be verified and accepted. It is also an individual choice as to what one is willing to accept as proof of its being verified by a method. Truth is a fleeting evaluation of a long standing theory which can fall in a matter of seconds or years. The longer a theory stands the more it ganes in its acceotance as a truth.

Jeff,
Irony can be seen as " a signifiant utterence that at that time it's signifiance is not precieved." So at at later time its signifiance is seen and may becone a truth? Will this allow it to be both and called an Ironic truth, after the fact so to speak?

Micheline,
I purchased my book here in Australia from a Democks Book store, all be it the last one on the shelf. If this is any help, it was only a couple of months ago?

Lise;
Many of my ancient and noble friends from my past would have no problem accepting you theory of "truth in dung" finding its way into popular belief systems. smiles. 1960 to 1980's inclusive