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Beginner Problems - The RL Wing Translations

Zimbali

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I have both the Illustrated I Ching and Tao of Power by RL Wing.

I am fairly new to this, and I will appreciate any guidance and or advice.

Firstly in my view I Ching deals with the probabilities concerning human situations. Whereas the Tao deals with human intervention.

Thus with I Ching life or the cosmos was broken down into 64 categories which in broad terms covered situations of human experience. What is then discussed is the optimisation of such situations, their nature and how such corresponds with the other life situations.

The Tao, deals with the more delicate matter of human intervention. Namely how to participate in the optimum manner with a human intervention.

Wing's translations she to differ from a lot of other translations, as it seems Wing has taking the wording and made such more precise for the modern reader.

I note also that Wing has added Confucian texts. Why is that? Is that something that stemmed from the Neo Confucian era in the Song Dynasty?

To my novice mind there seems a very rich array of materials for thought provocation and self reflective analysis.

If one can assess the reality and nature of ones situation there is indeed a wealth of wisdom to be gained.

However, regarding divination, and I understanding the historical issues with bone or shell cracks and so on. However setting that aside there is a clear "science" regarding cause and effect on both books.

One wonders if sages of the past, rather used the "divination" aspect as in some respects a ply to mask their true intentions. As an adept with this technology, and an agenda could certainly steer matters with some bias.

As I have spent some time reading both these specific translations I would welcome any exchange of dialogue in their regard.

Best
Zimbali
 

tuckchang

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In my opinion and for your reference:

The I Ching is a book composed of Zhou Yi + Ten Wings. Ten Wings are commonly regarded as the Confucian commentaries.

I don’t mean that Zhou Yi can’t be paraphrased by the philosophical Tao, although in fact Laozi’s concept of Yin and Yang is somewhat contrary to that of Zhou Yi. In China, fortune telling (incl. divination) is attributed to the religious Tao.

Very roughly speaking, Confucianism is to encourage people to manage the world, while Taoism is to leave everything to Tao.

The hexagram name and the text of Zhou Yi were derived from the phenomenon created by the hexagram. The hexagram is designated for divination; however in China, Zhou Yi paraphrased by Ten Wings is honored as the philosophy of life.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com
 

bradford

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R. L . Wing's book is not a translation, and it's probably best if a beginner starts with a real one.
The books are still with reading, though. I would just get anchored first by studying at least three
highly recommended translations straight from the Chinese.
It is also a mistake to believe that the Yi was structured around Daoist principles - these, including
theories of Yin and Yang, didn't come along until many centuries later. If anything, the Yi led to
the development of some of Daoism's earliest concepts. And what was done to the Yi in the Han Dynasty, when the Ten Wings were added, has led to some of later Daoism's greatest confusion.
 

Zimbali

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How would one describe RL Wing in that case? Is Wing a perception of the concept, or a bias, or an over simplification. I would like to learn and understand this.

To my novice understanding Wing seems pretty clear, and makes a great deal of sense. In have only glanced through some others.

I think because I can't read Chinese I lose out, but not understanding the construct and the syntax.

I have found great value in the trigram attribute images.

Thanks for the leads on the other publications. I shall investigate further.

I understand that Yijing and Tao are different. I'd say Yijing deals with prime situations. Tao deals with possibly prime interventions [or not] thus they a tackling differing aspects of reality.

However what is the case, is that some of the wisdom in Tao is particularly good for considering interventions associated with assessments related to Yijing, as pairing the two [ or at least having Tao in the tool box as it were] allows for yet another important perspective for critical analysis.

Best
Zimbali.
 

bradford

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How would one describe RL Wing in that case? Is Wing a perception of the concept, or a bias, or an over simplification. I would like to learn and understand this.
To my novice understanding Wing seems pretty clear, and makes a great deal of sense. In have only glanced through some others.
I think because I can't read Chinese I lose out, but not understanding the construct and the syntax.

I have found great value in the trigram attribute images.
Thanks for the leads on the other publications. I shall investigate further.
I understand that Yijing and Tao are different. I'd say Yijing deals with prime situations. Tao deals with possibly prime interventions [or not] thus they a tackling differing aspects of reality.
However what is the case, is that some of the wisdom in Tao is particularly good for considering interventions associated with assessments related to Yijing, as pairing the two [ or at least having Tao in the tool box as it were] allows for yet another important perspective for critical analysis.
Best Zimbali.
Wing is simply a commentary, necessarily showing only one point of view or bias. But to a lesser extent, so is a translation. Even the best translations do so because Chinese is so polysemous and ambivalent, from having so few words to cover the world, Knowing Chinese helps a lot, though.
The trigram attribute images, assuming you mean the Da Xiang, the Great or Overall Image, is for me the most lucid part and insightful part of the book, even though it was only included in the Wings.
Yin and Yang belong to Zou Yan and the Yinyang School, contemporary with Laozi. Even Laozi only used the words once, and then put Qi, as breath, between them, making a triad instead of a polarity. The word Dao is used a few times in the Zhouyi, with a less complicated set of meanings. See http://www.hermetica.info/OriginalDao.html
 

Zimbali

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Bradford,

Thank you very much. This is very helpful. I will digest this.

But think it likely I will have to stop from time to time for directions...
 

Zimbali

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Dear Bradford,

I have been working thru you work. It really is outstanding.

The detail is awesome.

I am particularly interested in The Matrix section. Do you have this as a spreadsheet [best] or Word document as that would be very useful.

Further is the Mathew's Chinese English dictionary available online?

I am also most interested on your future work related to Kabbalah.

I have been entertaining a theory regarding the Yijing influences in Kabbalah, which I think is the case. I have also been working with corpus linguistics on Homer searching trigram key words, pairing and studying the relationship to the text, which is highly illuminating. I am happy to share that with you if you are interested.

Perhaps I must write to you via email, as that is starting to stray off topic for here?

I think there are certainly links with the yijing, and the narrative in Homer, also Pindar, but possibly best to start with Homer.

I was interested in "Scales" also. I want to marry up in more detail and expand the range of key words, which I can also do manually.

In the Victorian era a book was published which from memory was "Was Homer Jewish" or "The Jewish Homer".

I think Homer wrote instructional material for the royal courts for training the youth, which is embedded in Homer is coded syntax. I note you posit that Yijing was a training tool for court youth, which I very much agree with.

I think Homer was a travelling merchant who found access to Yijing, and used it, and embedded it into both his known words. Later I think Pindar does the same.

Best
Zimbali
 

bradford

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Hi-
My work is available in PDF only. The original has the Chinese in Big5, not Unicode,
a problem that I don't have time to remedy yet.
Mathews can be bought online but I think it ends there in hard copy.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=mathews+chinese-english&x=57&y=11
As to Yi-Kabbalah connections, I doubt the Yi influenced Kabbalah until the Safed Schools,
when they seem to have adapted the Wujitu and Taijitu diagrams into the Tree of Life.
I doubt it had any influence on the Yetztrah, Bahir, Sha'are Ora or Zohar.
As to other connections, I'm more inclined to look for non-historical connections, by way of the
deeper structures of human cognition (archetypes, etc) with a little pareidolia thrown in.
It's like looking at two very different bushes but noting that both have roots, trunks, branches
and leaves.
I'm afraid you're on your own with Homer. While I disagree with the academic school that holds that the ba gua were non-existent in the minds of the Zhouyi authors, I don't think their meanings were anywhere near as well developed as we see today, or even as we see them in the Shuo Gua section of the Wings.
 

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