Belittlement by a friend/mentor 21>27

[goddessliss]

I met a woman some years ago and at first she was my mentor but over time she has also become my friend.
One minute she can be very supportive and encouraging and the next she can be quite belittling and hurtful questioning some things that I have very little control over but do the best I can with the circumstances surrounding me.
When we first met I struggled with my self esteem, my marriage had just broken up and I was trying to readjust to what all this meant and life circumstances it threw at me. Her mentoring helped me see life in a different positive way and now I have so much more in my life on many levels particularly my self confidence and self esteem.
She has everything I feel I lost with the end of my marriage and I don't begrudge her in anyway. She is an older woman with a much younger husband who still goes out to work and supports her financially and lovingly in many ways. He earns enough and between them they are asset rich so she has been denied a government pension. I do not have this in any shape or form and mostly rely on welfare to meet my needs of rent, food and clothing. I don't have a car anymore to save money to enable me to look after myself in the best possible way I can.
However she will ask me why I feel comfortable taking welfare but then when I find an avenue that may attract clients for my business, she starts questioning that.

Why does M attempt to belittle me at times?

Hexagram 21.4>27


All I can understand from that is that she wants to be the one that 'nourishes' me in the way she thinks fit and that Hex 21 suggests I may be finding 'Gold' and she for some reason doesn't like it or something I don't really know to be honest.

thanks
Liss

 

[ginnie]

The commentary by John Blofeld may be helpful on this one: The situation appears more gloomy than it is. You bite into the dry meat and find the golden arrow; that is, the truth that she sometimes belittles you. Good fortune is promised but has not appeared yet. I think the line is saying not to blow it out of proportion. Sometimes she says things that hurt your feelings, and that is a bad habit of hers.

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks Ginnie. In saying that's a bad habit of hers I'm wondering if you think maybe it an intentional habit?
A thought came to mind as I was writing this just now, she does say things to others so that 'they bite' as she doesn't mind stirring things up but I wonder if she realises just how much it can hurt other people who are really doing their best in life. - Liss

 

[precision grace]

Biting through what is disagreeable to arrive at nourishment - line 4 - bites on dried meat, receives metal arrows.


Some people are just habitually devil advocates and don't even realise they are causing a great hurt to the others with their words. Perhaps you could try and not take it personally, cultivate belief that what other people think doesn't matter, doesn't define you etc.? (It would be nice if we could rely on our friends and family to never hurt us, but seen as they are only human too, that's very unlikely, so perhaps it's always best to work on the one thing we have control over - that is, ourselves. )

 

[goddessliss]

Of course Grace that goes without saying - the hurt isn't so much what she says it's more that she says such things looking for a 'rise'. Why would you do that, what on earth would she get out of that? Gosh I've so much to learn about people, no wonder I spend so much time on my own. - Liss

 

[Trojina]

I've said this before and don't think you agree with me but IMO what you really need to know here is how to be with this. What her motives are aren't your concern. I think Yi is addressing your own concern about how you are being treated and 21.4 shows you biting through to find the truth.

I think her comment about you taking welfare was outrageous ! It was a smug judgmental question. How dare she ! It was a very personal dig


This isn't something to go on with unaddressed is it ? So I would say the metal arrow is what you learn by biting through to the truth of what she is up to. A smug silly woman supported by a man, making out she is a mentor or whatever when she couldn't even make a living herself without the mans input. You are in a position of greater independence than she is. You are doing what she can't do in getting through life by yourself. Doesn't matter that you take welfare you are still more independent than she is. Maybe she is jealous.

21 tells you not to let things go by but deal with them. I think it may be advising you to have it out with her. You may then get a better understanding. One thing I don't think the answer advises is to sit by yourself with this wondering why she said it. She said it and she shouldn't have and now you need to know how to deal with someone being so insulting. Yi advises biting through. Do you think you could bring it up with her ?

Also you said one moment she is lovely and supportive, the next moment hurtful. Be aware this is a common pattern. She keeps you there by being nice and then throws in the barbs. Maybe she helped you once but I can't see anything much worse than her asking you, from her position of comfort and ease, if you are okay with welfare ! It's a cheek, a liberty, and also it really is not any of her business.

In a nutshell I think the answer suggests a chat about these things she says. Tell her you find it upsetting. Maybe you can work it out although I don't like the sound of it.

Also when she was your mentor did you pay her ? That would be even worse ! You paid her to help and she abuses the relationship by now judging you.

Pah !

 

[Trojina]

Of course Grace that goes without saying - the hurt isn't so much what she says it's more that she says such things looking for a 'rise'. Why would you do that, what on earth would she get out of that? Gosh I've so much to learn about people, no wonder I spend so much time on my own. - Liss

I just wanted to say bear in mind it is still a sexist world and that affects everything. Women still have things thrown at them that a man in similar situation would not even have to think about. Women are often judged quite differently by men and women and although you may not always be able to put your finger on what is happening, some of what you experience with others might be down to the fact that the world can make it quite uncomfortable for a woman living by herself. Just as an experiment imagine if these things or other things would be said to you if you were male. There can be a undercurrent of undermining and devaluing that is so much part of our culture we don't even see it. I only mention this so that you don't take some of the difficulties you have too personally. I mean one time you said male neighbours acted suspicious of you and I think that maybe at the back of their tiny minds they somehow didn't feel right or treated you oddly because you were female and alone with no visible family around. I don't want to make you paranoid...these kinds of attitudes vary hugely depending on where you are in the world....OTOH it is important to remember you are not mad or weird or dumb. Your own son said you had imagined being harassed....but geez how many centuries have we had to put up with it all being imagined, not real....that it is our perceptions that must be wrong and so on and so on. It all seeps in to create a kind of bewilderment which is what I am hearing in your posts lately.

Maybe this is not relevant to you right now, I just thought it might be a factor to bear in mind sometimes so as not to internalise too much the difficulties you face.

 

[kafuka]

(21.4) She told you something that is tough and hard for you to chew and digest like when one bites on dried meat. I read once that 21 is like peeling an onion one layer at a time untill you finally get to the core. Doing so you receive yellow gold.
I kind of also see it like when you want to say something but feel like you shouldn't for whatever reason and bite your forearm instead so you prevent yourself from the urge to speak; it's like you have a barrier in your mouth. But I think that if one frees their mouth and their mouth is no longer with any barrier it'll nourish them (27). Maybe?...

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks Trojina - yes since this morning and posting this thread I've been thinking more along the lines you suggest here. It's not the first time she's said such an outrageous belittling thing about the welfare and other areas of my life. No I never paid her to be my mentor I just saw her that way for a long time until I gained my confidence and self esteem back, it's been a slow, laborious journey as you know and thank you for recognising that I'm an independent woman regardless of needing assistance from the government.
I could definitely bring it up with her but she would say something along the lines of well it's not problem how you feel about what I say - it's yours. So I thought instead of saying that I might say 'Oh thank you so much for reminding me that you see me as nothing but a dole bludger' and see how she responds to that!
It's only just been in recent months that I've recognised how judgmental her (and her husband) are.
Thanks for your support through taking the time to respond. - Liss

 

[dancingfox]

Hey Liss

I didn't really take a good look at the reading itself, but on a more personal note I've had a similar experience with a dear friend in my life.

I love my friend to bits, but she has a habit of throwing opinions like a stick between herself and the people around her. Honest to the bone, regardless of how it may affect loved ones or others, she will say what she believes must be said.
She is an extremely intelligent, sharp observer and I don't think she realises how much she hurts the ones she's close to when she speaks her mind. Problem is, despite her sharp mind, she is often too quick in her judgement of others, and therefore she is as often wrong as she is right.

I talked to her about it, but when I tried to explain to her how hurtful she can sometimes be she shot back this enormous list of small annoyances she had about me. Very belittling -_-

Anyway, I explained her, with different examples, that she can be really hurtful at times, to me and towards others. It didn't help at all, we didn't have any words over it, she seemed to listen and accept my words, but I couldn't help the feeling that my words never actually sunk in.

I suspect she is such a hard critic about others because she isn't ready to face some unprocessed issues herself. So she projects her frustration onto others, then she doesn' t have to deal with the real source of frustration within her.

As for your reading;
Maybe you friend belittles you because it provides her with nourishment, making her feel better about herself?

Or maybe the reading is merely saying that by biting through the dried meat (her belittlement) you arrive at your own true source of nourishment, which is your self-respect. If you are connected to your true self other peoples judgement becomes irrelevant.

Does that make sense at all?

 

[dancingfox]

Hey Liss

I didn't really take a good look at the reading itself, but on a more personal note I've has a similar experience with a dear friend in my life.

I love my friend to bits, but she has a habit of throwing opinions like a stick between herself and the people around her. Honest to the bone, regardless of how it may affect loved ones or others, she will say what she believes must be said.
She is an extremely intelligent, sharp observer and I don't think she realises how much she hurts the ones she's close to when she speaks her mind. Problem is, despite her sharp mind, she is often too quick in her judgement of others, and therefore she is as often wrong as she is right.

I talked to her about it, but when I tried to explain to her how hurtful she can sometimes be, she shot back this enormous list of small annoyances she had about me. Very belittling -_-

Anyway, I explained her, with different examples, that she can be really hurtful at times, to me and towards others. It didn't help at all, we didn't have any words over it, she seemed to listen and accept my words, but I couldn't help the feeling that my words never actually sunk in.

I suspect she is such a hard critic about others because she isn't ready to face some unprocessed issues herself. So she projects her frustration onto others, then she doesn' t have to deal with the real source of frustration within her.

As for your reading;
Maybe you friend belittles you because it provides her with nourishment, making her feel better about herself?
Does that make sense at all?

 

[goddessliss]

I few posts seemed to cross at the same time with mine. Thank you kafuka, yes there a many times I feel it's better to say nothing because I don't like the conflict it causes because then it just turns into a major thing but perhaps i should speak up at times.
I've come to realise by not speaking up in the times that I should I don't resolve things and most of the time I just end the relationship with whoever it is because that's better than having conflict with them.
In terms of this woman in particular I feel that dancingfox's story resonates completely with my scenario - I would just be wasting my breath by saying anything about her behaviour.
To be honest, lately, the more others judge my situation the more I realise I've been judging myself and have learned (still learning) to stop judging myself and the more I do that the more empowered I feel.
Oh yes dancingfox as you pointed out she has her own issues but lives in total denial that she has any issues at all that need facing and I would never say anything about them because I don't have the need to haha I'm too busy looking about my own sh...!

 

[goddessliss]

Yes Trojina you are right they have been in my posts a lot lately. I obviously am needing to sort this out and the Yi and this forum helps me so much to do that so when something happens I ask Yi and post it on here.
The problem is I do have very little support system and have to rely on my own judgments and perceptions to try and get through life. I read a lot from books from the library as they are my source of learning too, to know that others understand and have been through similar experiences.
Living with my oldest son was an absolute nightmare especially when the near assault happened. Living with my youngest son however has been incredibly easy and I've managed to sort some more things in myself not because he's particularly supportive but perhaps because he's a typical teenager and quite self absorbed just doing his own thing so I've had to become self absorbed too and this makes for a household of no expectations from each other. We talk a lot about things that needed to be resolved from the past but there's no dramas just acceptance that it needed to be resolved.
I feel it's time for me to let go and move on but I sorta have this worry that I won't be very good at it because of what's happened for me and how I've dealt with things in the past.

 

[moss elk]

Bite through Judge Liss, and see the truth of the matter,
About the words that she puts in her mouth.
It is part of her character/makeup and has nothing to do with you.

It's not your job to fix her or get entangled in an argument with her to seek justice.
Just see the truth of the way things are and make the best decisions for your self.

A friend reminded me last night that "hurt people hurt"
Crap rolls downhill. Keep this in mind to maintain compassion for her,
But not at the expense of being crapped on.

 

[Grandma]

I agree with the other posters TrojinA and the others who said the biting through is your understanding the truth of what she is doing which is undermining your self confidence.
The conundrum is this that as you grow in self confidence you become aware of and are able to shed people who seemingly were being supportive and who did help you get to your present state but are actually not acting in your best interest.
You are biting through to the truth, you don't have to confront her.

 

[sooo]

My advice to you, as a friendly acquaintance, and only because you've asked, is to reconsider this person's true role in your life. Are they really your mentor, your life coach, or are they a charismatic friend with strong opinions, some which may be helpful, and some which may not. But don't judge them based on their politeness or dainty footsteps, nor by the power of their jaws alone, but whether they themselves demonstrate everything that they try to feed to you.

 

[goddessliss]

Thankyou everyone this helps me so much. You've all said something useful and helpful for me.

Moss Elk - well said!!

Sooo - yes I need to redefine my description of a mentor, I guess she was just a bright shining star at that moment but as Susan and most of you have said she's now trying to undermine my confidence.

- Liss

 

[goddessliss]

Since I started this thread I haven't spoken to her except to say I'm a bit busy in the mornings to chat and I haven't heard from her either. - Liss

 

[becalm]

Funny reading this now. We resumed our friendship that went on until the beginning of 2019 and she continued in the same way until I realised how passive/aggressive she is and I just stopped communicating with her. I haven't communicated with her since and never will. Potentially she could have died as she was in her 80's.
Around the same time I also ended another friendship with someone with whom I'd been friends with for nearly 10 years as she said something so awful to me about a trauma I had suffered as a young girl.

Perhaps I just grew up!!

 

[moss elk]

I lived through a 21.4 experience last year.

I can describe it as doing something very difficult, something that tested my 'mettle'.
An exhausting three day ordeal,
I succeeded and was rewarded with money and a reputation of
'he accomplishes things'
Knowing this about 21.4 now,

I have to say that what she was trying to do, however awkward the attempt, however misguided her technique was,
She was trying to get you 'toughen up' and summon the resolve of a warrior to face your problem.
She cared about you.

 

[becalm]

I have to say that what she was trying to do, however awkward the attempt, however misguided her technique was,
She was trying to get you 'toughen up' and summon the resolve of a warrior to face your problem.
She cared about you.

Yes I guess that could be right and she was successful in the end - even if it did take a long time.
I don't miss her at all and she's never attempted to contact me either since.

 

[becalm]

Bite through Judge Liss, and see the truth of the matter,
About the words that she puts in her mouth.
It is part of her character/makeup and has nothing to do with you.

It's not your job to fix her or get entangled in an argument with her to seek justice.
Just see the truth of the way things are and make the best decisions for your self.

A friend reminded me last night that "hurt people hurt"
Crap rolls downhill. Keep this in mind to maintain compassion for her,
But not at the expense of being crapped on.

Funny that you said this at the time and to be honest I think this is more in keeping with what was going on.
I came across this thread because I'm very reserved about going for a job trial.
Sounds to me it could go either way which you proved by both of your posts.

 

[moss elk]

Funny that you said this at the time and to be honest I think this is more in keeping with what was going on.

Well, I do stand by the general things I said six years ago, but now, having had experience with the line,
I am very confident about what it means.

That's why I felt the need to post today.

 

[ZeroPoint]

Thanks Trojina - yes since this morning and posting this thread I've been thinking more along the lines you suggest here. It's not the first time she's said such an outrageous belittling thing about the welfare and other areas of my life. No I never paid her to be my mentor I just saw her that way for a long time until I gained my confidence and self esteem back, it's been a slow, laborious journey as you know and thank you for recognising that I'm an independent woman regardless of needing assistance from the government.
I could definitely bring it up with her but she would say something along the lines of well it's not problem how you feel about what I say - it's yours. So I thought instead of saying that I might say 'Oh thank you so much for reminding me that you see me as nothing but a dole bludger' and see how she responds to that!
It's only just been in recent months that I've recognised how judgmental her (and her husband) are.
Thanks for your support through taking the time to respond. - Liss

 

[ZeroPoint]

I am dealing with a similar problem. My friend does this because he gets positive 'nourishment' in the form of energy from knowing he's outcompeted me and can make a drama about it.

This stunned me because he comes from money but earned his own comfortable living. He's smarter and better educated than I.

That's not the point. He finally admitted that yes he knows he's a narcissist, but look at all the times he's "supported" me.

It's the very definition of gaslighting.

I have not decided what I am going to do about this relationship. I do suggest you don't assume your friend is nourishing you without getting her needs met first.

 

[becalm]

It’s a pretty old post ZeroPoint so the relationship is done and dusted and I don’t regret moving on from her.
I came across it this morning when I asked about a potential boss who appears flakey but I have a feeling she’s Gaslighting as well.
At this point I’m 95% sure I’m going to give the job opportunity a miss. I don’t need the feeling of Uncertainty that my interaction with her has started to give me.

 

[becalm]

It’s a pretty old post ZeroPoint so the relationship is done and dusted and I don’t regret moving on from her.
I came across it this morning when I asked about a potential boss who appears flakey but I have a feeling she’s Gaslighting as well.
At this point I’m 95% sure I’m going to give the job opportunity a miss. I don’t need the feeling of Uncertainty that my interaction with her has started to give me.

I did in fact go forward with this opportunity but it proved to be a crappy job and I was only there for 2 months.

A couple of weeks ago I was in the area where the woman I originally started this post about lives. I wondered if I'd see her but I didn't. When I got back I just happened to log on to an old facebook page I had and she'd actually sent me a message in February this year when this Thread was 'resurrected'

 

[ontheroad]

Oh gosh funny seeing this now too - I said I'd never speak to her again but as it turns out we have resumed our friendship. Since December 2022 and we are great friends.
She went through a very big trauma and nearly lost her home because of floods. She has changed significantly and I actually made a point of going to her visit her a few weeks ago when I was passing through where she lives.
We've never mentioned the time we didn't talk. Maybe she figured it out herself or maybe the trauma made her sort out her BS.