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Big question about Wen Wang Gua and Chinese Lunar Calendar

Delpino

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For those who understand Wen Wen Gua, I have a doubt that I cannot clarify based on what I have read from the different sources (mostly forums and blogs, also books). It is presumed that the True Solar Time should be used for both the different WWG divination methods (BaZi, Liu Yao, Jing Fang, Najia, etc.) since these people claim that the Chinese lunar calendar is inconsistent and has changed over time. I understand that the only way to obtain the 10 heavenly stems and the 12 earthly branches is through the Chinese Lunar Calendar (luni-solar calendar), since these concepts are intrinsic to Chinese astrology. Or I'm wrong?

In addition it is necessary to bear in mind that WWG is related to the theory of the five elements, and lunar calendar is the reference for it.

Normally the sequence to calculate the data in WWG consists of:
1. Take the data of the local solar date: year, month, day and time of the moment in which the query is made (local solar time)
2. Calculate True Solar Time.
2. Calculate solar date in China (adapt the Local solar time to Chinese time)
3. Search for the lunar data corresponding to the Chinese solar date obtained: stem and branch of year, stem and branch of month, stem and branch of day. (and in some cases branch of time).

Then if we need the Chinese lunar calendar and these experts say that this calendar is inconsistent, are the results obtained in the consultation reliable or not??? I am very confused about it.
 

hmesker

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A few weeks ago I wrote this on the fivearts.info forum (https://fivearts.info/fivearts/index.php?topic=18523.0):

I know there are practitioners that use the lunar-solar calendar for Liu Yao divination while other use the solar calendar. In practice I think it doesn't really matter which calendar you use - since the method uses randomness, synchronicity or whatever you want to call it I think/believe your choice for the calendar will be incorporated in the answer. Personally I use the solar calendar. Not because it is more accurate but simply because Liu Yao/Wenwang Gua divination is based on the Bagong 八宮 system as described by Jing Fang in his Yizhuan 易傳. At the last hexagram Jing Fang says:

立春正月,節在寅,《坎》卦初六,立秋同用。雨水正月中在丑,《巽》卦初六,處暑同用。驚蟄二月節在子,《震》卦初九,白露同用。春分二月中在亥,《兌》卦九四,春秋分同用。清明三月節在戌,《艮》卦六四,寒露同用。穀雨三月中在酉,《離》卦九四,霜降同用。立夏四月節在申,《坎》卦六四,立冬同用。小滿四月中在未,《巽》卦六四,小雪同用。芒種五月節在午,《乾》宮九四,大雪同用。夏至五月中在巳,《兌》宮初九,冬至同用。小暑六月節在辰,《艮》宮初六,小寒同用。大暑六月中在卯,《離》宮初九,大寒同用。

When Jing Fang mentions the first month (正月) he explicitly refers to the solar calendar. If the solar calendar is the foundation for Liu Yao/WWG I think I should also use the solar calendar for the determination of the bazi for the day of casting.
Jing Fang refers to the solar months in his Yizhuan. But in practice I don't think it makes any difference which calendar you use since the hexagram is still obtained by a random token generator, synchronicity or whatever you want to call it. Your choice for the calendar will be incorporated in the answer from the Yi. Personally I would not convert the time to the Chinese timezone, that sounds ridiculous to me. Tibet has the same time as Shanghai and that doesn't make any sense to me with regard to time specific systems like bazi. I know some refer to it as 'Beijing time' because that is the location that decides the time for the whole of China but I don't live in Beijing so that doesn't make sense to me.
 

Gmulii

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For those who understand Wen Wen Gua, I have a doubt that I cannot clarify based on what I have read from the different sources (mostly forums and blogs, also books). It is presumed that the True Solar Time should be used for both the different WWG divination methods (BaZi, Liu Yao, Jing Fang, Najia, etc.) since these people claim that the Chinese lunar calendar is inconsistent and has changed over time. I understand that the only way to obtain the 10 heavenly stems and the 12 earthly branches is through the Chinese Lunar Calendar (luni-solar calendar), since these concepts are intrinsic to Chinese astrology. Or I'm wrong?

In addition it is necessary to bear in mind that WWG is related to the theory of the five elements, and lunar calendar is the reference for it.

Normally the sequence to calculate the data in WWG consists of:
1. Take the data of the local solar date: year, month, day and time of the moment in which the query is made (local solar time)
2. Calculate True Solar Time.
2. Calculate solar date in China (adapt the Local solar time to Chinese time)
3. Search for the lunar data corresponding to the Chinese solar date obtained: stem and branch of year, stem and branch of month, stem and branch of day. (and in some cases branch of time).

Then if we need the Chinese lunar calendar and these experts say that this calendar is inconsistent, are the results obtained in the consultation reliable or not??? I am very confused about it.
Hi.
As hmesker post covers nicely the calendars, I will try to explain the Solar Time aspect. And that can be very complex.

Good news is for WWG it isn't as important as for other systems.
As the hour pillar isn't used in WWG much, the hour would be a problem only if it brings change in the day and month.
So if you think logically about it, that(True Solar Time) would be a problem only around midnight or in rare cases when time adjustment will change the whole month. Since after adjustment it may also move the Day Pillar to the other day.

Some schools in China advice to not ask questions around midnight(1 hour around), to avoid confusion there. But lets try to see why and what we can do about that.

Now, to get what Solar Time is, we have to look at the branches. Basically, True Solar Time is positioning Wu Fire branch(peak of fire) at the 12:00 or noon. In that way Wu Horse Fire branch shows the moment when the Sun is highest in the sky, while Zi Rat Water branch shows midnight(and we align with 00:00).
So the hour pillar just follows the light.

We may think that is the case anyway, but it isn't really true. As the Time Zones are made to align stuff the Sun time(position in the sky) often won't fully align with the clock time. And that is where "solar time" comes in.

So adjusting for True Solar Time is just compensating for that and is usually less then 1 hour(2 with Daylight Saving) difference from the clock time, except in China and other places that doesn't use Time Zones in the same way. Parts of France would be more as well, but in general wouldn't be that much difference.

So far we have the idea that in WWG, difference will either be once every 28-30 days(month change) and that is rare, or it will be in the time around midnight.

I have commented on my reasons for using True Solar Time with WWG in Jlims forums here, it was part of another topic that got split:

http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=605.0

Very good translations and comments on wild crane book there in English as well(if you check around).

I have to clarify here, while I do have very good reasons to use it, there are many, many schools and practitioners out there that do not use Solar Time. Very few of the ones I like use China time, but many use clock time. Including some people I learned a lot from.
In that sense while I do use it, I can't fully recommend it, as we can see for other people other approaches work better.

At the end of the day when it comes to time will have to figure out what works for yourself in my humble opinion.
But as long as you don't ask around midnight it doesn't matter that much, as most of the stuff will be exactly the same. So if you are not sure, just don't ask 1 hour around midnight and there is no difference.
)
When it comes to calendar would recommend to use Solar as already explained.
 

Delpino

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And in the case that one decides to use solar time, how are we supposed to assign Heavenly stems and Earthly branchs to each year, month and day?

The luni-solar calendar (Sexagenary cycle = ganzhi) associates for each year, month and day a heavenly stem and a earthly branch. I follow the Chinese Farmer's Almanac calendar (Tung Shing or Tung Shu). Some applications and software are wrong in the calculations of Stem/branch pair. I use this: https://www.yourchineseastrology.com/calendar/

Ex. today 08/24/2019 is
Lunar date: July 24, Ji Hai (Pig) Year (2019)
stem and branch of day: Gui Si
stem and branch of the month: Ren Shen
stem and branch of the year: Ji Hai

If we do not take into account the lunar calendar and follow the solar calendar, what stem/branch pair should we assign to year, month and day corresponding to 08/24/2019? :confused:

Celestial Stems
1. jiǎ,
2. yǐ,
3. bǐng,
4. dīng
5. wù
6. jǐ
7. gēng
8. xīn
9. rén
10. guǐ

Earthly Branchs
1. zǐ
2. chǒu
3. yín
4. mǎo
5. chén
6. sì
7. wǔ
8. wèi
9. shēn
10. yǒu
11. xū
12. hài
 

hmesker

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And in the case that one decides to use solar time, how are we supposed to assign Heavenly stems and Earthly branchs to each year, month and day?
Ehrm...by using a solar calendar? https://www.yjcn.nl/wp/download/2610/

The luni-solar calendar (Sexagenary cycle = ganzhi) associates for each year, month and day a heavenly stem and a earthly branch.
That is not different from the solar calendar but because the months are determined in a different way there will be differences.

I follow the Chinese Farmer's Almanac calendar (Tung Shing or Tung Shu). Some applications and software are wrong in the calculations of Stem/branch pair. I use this: https://www.yourchineseastrology.com/calendar/
A site that describes a lunar date as 'July 24, Ji Hai (Pig) Year (2019)' sounds unreliable to me. What the site means of course is that it is the 7th lunar month.

Ex. today 08/24/2019 is
Lunar date: July 24, Ji Hai (Pig) Year (2019)
stem and branch of day: Gui Si
stem and branch of the month: Ren Shen
stem and branch of the year: Ji Hai

If we do not take into account the lunar calendar and follow the solar calendar, what stem/branch pair should we assign to year, month and day corresponding to 08/24/2019? :confused:
See Gmuli's calculator https://www.bright-hall.net/WWG/WWGCalc.html . It tells you every you need to know when you deal with a WWG hexagram. But I have the impression you are making it way more complicated then necessary. First, don't use the lunar calendar. Second, use a good solar calendar. Problem solved :)
 

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