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Blog post: Foundations: trusting the oracle

Trojina

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But I still don't understand how you can tell from the Yi if an internal or external matter is being addressed.
And who or what is addressing anything anyway. Is the Yi Jing a separate entity,an "it", external to us, that has a consciousness existing somewhere in the Universe, or is it a means of accessing what lies within us.
You'll generally get an answer in accordance with the question. If I ask about an outer matter such as my car then I could likely expect an answer about that car which might be more outer focused/predictive....whatever. If I ask about something psychological in me I'd read the answer as about that. However as others have said part of the beauty of consulting is we begin to see often these 'inner' and 'outer' matters aren't so clearly delineated anyway. It's part of developing your interpretation skills you get to discern how Yi is answering you.

As to whether you think Yi is a separate entity there is no factual answer of course it is a matter of opinion. Some people seem to go so far as to say everything, Yi also, has no separate existence from them, they think demons, angels all the powers of dark and light are all constructs of their own brains. Some may actually prefer to think that way as it means they remain in control- if everything is in my head I pretty much say what goes.



If it is within us then how can it address external matters, unless we already know the answers to everything already anyway.
It isn't within us we are consulting a wider intelligence.

As I have only ever used the Yi as a method of self development, and regarded it as a mirror of my own subconscious, to bring what is hidden from conscious awareness to the surface,
It's not just a mirror of your subconscious, why would it be. It can show you aspects of your subconscious of course but that doesn't mean that's all it is.

Also be clear the ancient chinese people who consulted Yi were asking about war and crops and rain and marriage all practical outer things. The Yi itself, the trigrams and hexagrams aren't made from shadows of subconscious impulses but from living nature, that's where they are taken from. Do you think ancient chinese people, rulers were wholly concerned with bringing out their subconscious?

Some writers want to virtually gag and bind Yi into little mirrors of themselves and their philosophies. It could be you have a skewed view because of the books you've been reading. Carol Anthony by any chance?

Unless the Yi is a separate conscious entity I am struggling to comprehend how anyone could ask, and receive answers to anything other than internal personal growth matters.
Struggling? Why struggle just try it and see how it works for you. Ask about a practical matter that matters to you for example. Also there's 20 years worth of example in the Shared readings section of other people asking about outer matters. And as Hilary said what is an outer matter and an inner one isn't always so distinct. Relationships are both aren't they. And outer matters aren't separate from inner matters most of the time.

As the context, and comprehension, of a reading would change dramatically, beyond recognition, depending on whether the Yi is something "out there", as an it, or something already inside of us, already known, identifying the reality of the source of the Yi, would appear to be the most basic of questions to be addressed and answered before any other matters relating to uses, and interpretations, could begin to make sense.
I think Hilary answered that. It's the other way around anyway. Just use it and see and then think about whether you think it's inside you or outside of you.
 

moss elk

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Or in other words... yes, you're right, it does appear to be the most basic of questions, but it really isn't.

It's a question that is not necessary to the use or function of Yi, or of being aided or guided thereby.

C. Jung wrote in Wilhelm's book:
The less one thinks about the theory of the I Ching, the more soundly one sleeps.
 

Liselle

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One thing that might help is to try doing daily readings for a while. Just very basic questions, like "What to be aware of today?" or "Guidance for today?" or something.

A day is a nice short time period, which helps for things like this. You'll probably find a whole variety of "how Yi answers."
 

FrankieT

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To get a definitive answer to this question, I think you'd need to locate - with clinical certainty - the dividing line between your inner self and the universal reality. Then you could say 'this answer is from my inner self, which I know for certain to be hermetically sealed and have no connection to the cosmos' or 'that answer is from the outer world, and definitely no part of me at all.'

Yi's answers tell me things I wasn't aware of. Did some part of me already know them? Maybe, maybe not.

Or in other words... yes, you're right, it does appear to be the most basic of questions, but it really isn't.
Hi. Of course the Yi informs of what we are not aware of, there would be little point in consulting something that only told us what we already knew.
The essence of the original question, which precedes and questions of inner or outer, is where is the Yi. Is it out there, an external source that we reach out to, something existing, separate from us, with a consciousness, that we are able to connect to, or, is the Yi a tool to mirror our own internal, but hidden awareness. With all the limitations that would not exist for an external cosmic entity, if that is what the Yi would have to be to be an "it".
Then, and only then can the ramifications of internal or external be addressed, only then can any context be applied the the text of the Yi, only then can any translations be evaluated for relevance, and only then can any interpretations of any readings be considered.
I had always assumed that the Yi was a doorway to my inner world, and yet I find many suggestions in many posts to the Yi be a conscious something, as though "it" were some sort of alien being with infinite knowledge of everything in the universe, and of every future event in the universe.
It clearly cannot be both internal and external as many suggest.

I would have to argue from my experiences that the true inner self s the universal reality, where else could any reality lie. Reality has to be unchanging, nothing on the outside is unchanging, the only reality is what lies within inside of us.

And so it really is the most basic of questions, As without that being addressed there is no way of understanding the context or meaning of a single word of the Yi. And with no context or understanding of the real meanings of the Yi no interpretations could ever be anything other than not reality and only an illusion.
 
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Liselle

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I don't think this is provable, Frankie. How would you prove it?

I imagine most people here have accepted that the I Ching works, but there is a whole variety of ideas about how, and we can't prove how.
 

Trojina

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Then, and only then can the ramifications of internal or external be addressed, only then can any context be applied the the text of the Yi, only then can any translations be evaluated for relevance, and only then can any interpretations of any readings be considered.
You'd better get cracking then on these ramifications and evaluating translations for relevance then Frankie.


Meantime you better close this forum down Hilary. Nothing can go ahead any further, no readings, no interpretations, no thoughts or discussion about Yi, nothing, not until Frankie here gets his internal ramifications sorted and THEN and ONLY THEN when Frankie has got all his ramifications wrapped up and his internals fully separated from his externals for relevance may anyone even think about interpreting any readings.

I would have to argue from my experiences that the true inner self s the universal reality, where else could any reality lie. Reality has to be unchanging, nothing on the outside is unchanging, the only reality is what lies within inside of us.
You seem to have missed a fundamental point here. The I Ching is The Book of Changes not the 'Book of the Unchanging Inner Self in it's Underpants'.

A cat might help in your development with Yi, give you a different fresher more interesting perspective. Constant inner self questions must be dull as ditchwater. Ask about the cat and then consider, if you are able, whether the answer is about your inner self or the cat. And consider, as has been said, that you aren't a hermetically sealed unit you have a relationship with the cat and the cat enters your inner world, you may dream of the cat, the cat might sit on your inner self when you're on the couch.


And so it really is the most basic of questions, As without that being addressed there is no way of understanding the context or meaning of a single word of the Yi. And with no context or understanding of the real meanings of the Yi no interpretations could ever be anything other than not reality and only an illusion.
Currently you are at an impasse, unable seemingly to develop your thinking any further than a simplistic model of there being an inside and outside to you, defined by skin and that what is inside that skin, is, in your mind, utterly impermeable and so Yi is only permitted to refer to what resides in what you define as your 'self' which is currently that which resides within your skin. So the problem is not that your question cannot be answered but that you don't understand the answer or are unable to refine your thinking to the point of subtlety required to appreciate the answer Hilary gave.


Read it again and read the other responses again and maybe you will understand this and the other responses at some point in the future

To get a definitive answer to this question, I think you'd need to locate - with clinical certainty - the dividing line between your inner self and the universal reality. Then you could say 'this answer is from my inner self, which I know for certain to be hermetically sealed and have no connection to the cosmos' or 'that answer is from the outer world, and definitely no part of me at all.'

Yi's answers tell me things I wasn't aware of. Did some part of me already know them? Maybe, maybe not.

Or in other words... yes, you're right, it does appear to be the most basic of questions, but it really isn't.

No point repeating yourself and telling us no further interpretations can go ahead when you haven't read the responses you were given. If you don't read the responses given you are only having a dialogue with yourself here which seems to be how you like it with Yi too. So you only want to talk to yourself basically, with Yi or with forum it's just you and you?
 
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FrankieT

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You'll generally get an answer in accordance with the question. If I ask about an outer matter such as my car then I could likely expect an answer about that car which might be more outer focused/predictive....whatever. If I ask about something psychological in me I'd read the answer as about that. However as others have said part of the beauty of consulting is we begin to see often these 'inner' and 'outer' matters aren't so clearly delineated anyway. It's part of developing your interpretation skills you get to discern how Yi is answering you.

As to whether you think Yi is a separate entity there is no factual answer of course it is a matter of opinion. Some people seem to go so far as to say everything, Yi also, has no separate existence from them, they think demons, angels all the powers of dark and light are all constructs of their own brains. Some may actually prefer to think that way as it means they remain in control- if everything is in my head I pretty much say what goes.




It isn't within us we are consulting a wider intelligence.


It's not just a mirror of your subconscious, why would it be. It can show you aspects of your subconscious of course but that doesn't mean that's all it is.

Also be clear the ancient chinese people who consulted Yi were asking about war and crops and rain and marriage all practical outer things. The Yi itself, the trigrams and hexagrams aren't made from shadows of subconscious impulses but from living nature, that's where they are taken from. Do you think ancient chinese people, rulers were wholly concerned with bringing out their subconscious?

Some writers want to virtually gag and bind Yi into little mirrors of themselves and their philosophies. It could be you have a skewed view because of the books you've been reading. Carol Anthony by any chance?


Struggling? Why struggle just try it and see how it works for you. Ask about a practical matter that matters to you for example. Also there's 20 years worth of example in the Shared readings section of other people asking about outer matters. And as Hilary said what is an outer matter and an inner one isn't always so distinct. Relationships are both aren't they. And outer matters aren't separate from inner matters most of the time.


I think Hilary answered that. It's the other way around anyway. Just use it and see and then think about whether you think it's inside you or outside of you.
Hi Trojina. Thanks for the response.
In response to your first point that the Yi replies to the question. How can that be claimed without clarification on the source of the Yi. Is the Yi an outer cosmic and conscious entity that somehow we connect with, or is it something already "inside" of us.
I dont see anything in the Yi that talks about the outer world, it would be anyway impossible for 64 hexagrams to cover every aspect of the external lives of 6 billion people on the planet, and would be out of date anyway from when the Yi was first written. only if the Yi was a tool of the inner world, and had no correlation with the outer, would it have remained relevant today.

I would have to argue that the outer world, being changeable and not constant in any regard, could never be considered as anything but an illusion, and therefore any reading and interpretation would have to fall into the same illusory nature.
We may wish to believe that our readings of the external make sense, but doesnt that contradict the very nature of the Yi itself and the fact that it has survived for thousands of years despite the enormous changes to the world.

If the fact of whether the Yi is a separate entity, or not, is clearly central to the use of the Yi, and cannot be a matter of opinion. But has to be a matter of fact- or nothing in the Yi would make any sense, except within the illusions of our own imaginations.

If it isn't within us, and we are consulting a wider intelligence, then the most important question, in order to make sense of anything the Yi says, is where and what that "wider" intelligence is. Where does "it" live, what is "its" purpose. Why would we assume that any wider intelligence is benign and not laughing at the games it plays with our awareness. Without knowing the source of the Yi how would we know if the whole purpose of the Yi was to have a laugh out our expense.
But none of them possiblities would apply f the Yi was only a tool for the inner world.

My reading of history informs that the Yi was only one form of divination in China, that every state had different tools of divination, probably tools to fit different purposes, that they were kept secret from one another, that there was no commonality, and that the Yi survived such things as the burning of books, only because it was considered to be a sacred book of the inner world.
The Chinese were very clearly concerned withe the inner world. The religions extending into ancient history, and all the texts on inner development that were so well hidden to survive the onslaughts of various dictators intent on destroying any beliefs divergent to their own,are testimony to that importance of the inner world.

If the Yi could actually be confined to any philosophy that would render the Yi as nothing of importance and the entirety of our discussions would be pointless. It s because the Yi cannot be constrained to any external parameters that surely define it as a tool of the inner world alone.

If outer matters aren't separate form inner ones then they are clearly only inner matters anyway. The external obviously mirrors the inner in those cases. But to ask about a car is clearly nothing but external and nothing but the illusions of the outer world.

Of course I have tried readings about the outer world, they were mostly vague, and required ignoring everything that I knew about almost everything. With only a little imagination most readings of the external could be made to fit most things. Hardly what anyone could call reliable. I read a study somewhere where the researcher had invented various forms of divination and compared them. The more vague the text of the invented form the more the possibility of it appearing to fit. Is not the fact that there is such differences of opinion about reading interpretations a statement that by using the Yi as an external tool we are reducing it to nothing other than an invented fairground fancy.
I most certainly object to such devaluation.
Which is why I am asking if anyone has any evidence as to what the Yi really is. And so the importance of whether it is an outer, or, an outer tool is really important.
Unless we are happy to live in an illusion. But why then would anyone care about anything. Surely it is only because we dont want to be determined by the illusion that we consult the Yi.
 

FrankieT

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I don't think this is provable, Frankie. How would you prove it?

I imagine most people here have accepted that the I Ching works, but there is a whole variety of ideas about how, and we can't prove how.
Hi Liselle.
Rather simply by showing what the Yi is. By knowing in the first instance whether the Yi is an "it", external to us, and some form of cosmic wider intelligence, perhaps even alien, or, a representation of the inner world.
It obviously cannot be both.
Isn't imagination the problem. We can all imagine anything that we care to. take as my reference the works of Neuroscience that show that the external world, that which we consider to be real in our imaginations, is nothing but an illusion at best, and perhaps best described as closer to an hallucination.
It is the very existence of variety that reveals that the question of what the Yi is, where it resides, and therefore whether can be used for the external or the internal, seems to being ignored. That would suggest that the use of the Yi for one, or the other is deliberately being ignored, and would that not suggest the existence of unreality rather than reality.
Of course if no one knows as you suggest that would render any interpretations of any readings completely impossible and pointless and existent only in the imagination.
 

FrankieT

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You'd better get cracking then on these ramifications and evaluating translations for relevance then Frankie.


Meantime you better close this forum down Hilary. Nothing can go ahead any further, no readings, no interpretations, no thoughts or discussion about Yi, nothing, not until Frankie here gets his internal ramifications sorted and THEN and ONLY THEN when Frankie has got all his ramifications wrapped up and his internals fully separated from his externals for relevance may anyone even think about interpreting any readings.


You seem to have missed a fundamental point here. The I Ching is The Book of Changes not the 'Book of the Unchanging Inner Self in it's Underpants'.

A cat might help in your development with Yi, give you a different fresher more interesting perspective. Constant inner self questions must be dull as ditchwater. Ask about the cat and then consider, if you are able, whether the answer is about your inner self or the cat. And consider, as has been said, that you aren't a hermetically sealed unit you have a relationship with the cat and the cat enters your inner world, you may dream of the cat, the cat might sit on your inner self when you're on the couch.



Currently you are at an impasse, unable seemingly to develop your thinking any further than a simplistic model of there being an inside and outside to you, defined by skin and that what is inside that skin, is, in your mind, utterly impermeable and so Yi is only permitted to refer to what resides in what you define as your 'self' which is currently that which resides within your skin. So the problem is not that your question cannot be answered but that you don't understand the answer or are unable to refine your thinking to the point of subtlety required to appreciate the answer Hilary gave.


Read it again and read the other responses again and maybe you will understand this and the other responses at some point in the future



No point repeating yourself and telling us no further interpretations can go ahead when you haven't read the responses you were given. If you don't read the responses given you are only having a dialogue with yourself here which seems to be how you like it with Yi too. So you only want to talk to yourself basically, with Yi or with forum it's just you and you?
Hi Trojina.
PLease dont suggest that the Forum is closed. I havent actually had a response to my actual question yet.
And closing the forum would deny many of what they clearly consider important.
I dont understand the underpants reference unless you are suggesting that the inner world was of no relevance. But that would be denying the very history of China, and with it the very validity of the Yi.
I dont understand the objection to simplicity. Is the Yi not the essence of simplicity in being able to distil so much into just hexagrams.
Unfortunately Hilary didn't actually address the question. Clearly no ones opinion is of no value unless it can be substantiated in some way.
I would love to develop my understanding. Hence joining the forum. But that doesnt mean that I, nor anyone has to take on trust what anyone says, and simply believe an opinion, when it doesnt address the actual question.
If the Yi is an "it", and out there external conscious entity, then that renders a completely different set of interpretations of every reading of the good book.
Without the clarification how would anyone know how to interpret a reading. Are we to take a stream as an actual external waterway, or a metaphor for something within us.
Of course we react and respond to such things as a cat, but surely we all understand that the "inner" means something universal, Some call it the heart, some spirit, whatever, it is differentiated from the outer external.

I have read everything, very carefully. Lots of opinions but no one addressing the actual question. Is the possibility that the Yi might have had its origins as a tool for the inner so horrific.
Have you read my original post and my responses to the kind people who have offered their opinions, even if they did not address the actual relevant matters.

I apologise for assuming that participants of the Yi understood what the meaning of the inner world was.
In accord with the name of the forum let me add some clarity. The external is anything and everything that is subject to change, the inner is that we we search for as peace and contentment, which is unchangeable.
So cats and underpants, and any other such references, have nothing to do with my question.
 

IrfanK

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The less one thinks about the theory of the I Ching, the more soundly one sleeps.
Hehe. You beat me to it! I was just about to quote that one.

I remember someone from the RFO class tell me that he and his sons had a tradition, when the big annual horse races were on, of consulting the Yi to see which horse was going to win, then putting five dollars on it. He admitted that the horse they chose didn't win last time, but he wasn't particularly disappointed, only five bucks, after all. It was just an exercise in associative thinking.

Just play with it and see where it goes.

Personally, I don't get very good results when I ask about horse races or lottery numbers, but you never know your luck.
 

IrfanK

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I dont see anything in the Yi that talks about the outer world, it would be anyway impossible for 64 hexagrams to cover every aspect of the external lives of 6 billion people on the planet, and would be out of date anyway from when the Yi was first written. only if the Yi was a tool of the inner world, and had no correlation with the outer, would it have remained relevant today.
Well, those are all beliefs, not facts. Some people clearly do believe that the 64 hexagrams do indeed cover every aspect of life. Certainly the authors of the Da Zhuan thought so:

The Book of Changes contains the measure of heaven and earth, therefore it enables us to comprehend the tao of heaven and earth and its order.
It's pretty much impossible to prove them right or wrong. It's a belief.

Was it Heidegger who was the Christian existentialist? I think he acknowledged that there was absolutely no way to prove that God existed, but that he decided, as an act of free will and choice, to believe anyway. As an act of conscious, deliberate faith. I think his point was that you do decide what you believe in.

The external is anything and everything that is subject to change, the inner is that we we search for as peace and contentment, which is unchangeable.
Okay, so you've decided what you believe. Cool.
 
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FrankieT

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One thing that might help is to try doing daily readings for a while. Just very basic questions, like "What to be aware of today?" or "Guidance for today?" or something.

A day is a nice short time period, which helps for things like this. You'll probably find a whole variety of "how Yi answers."
Thanks liselle. I think I am at fault in not explaining myself clearly enough.
Firstly the question about where and what the Yi is. Is it an external "it", a something with some sort of awareness that can be consulted on any matter and is in some way special, and perhaps sacred. Or is it a book that allows the penetrations of our own inner workings, along with the limitations that come with to what extent we are conscious of the meanings of life, or not.
Secondly, and clearly dependent on the first is the possibility of the Yi addressing inner or outer matters.
A question is by definition an outer matter, and so ever question goes in the opposite direction of the Yi being a guide to the inner. A question, in order to be useful has to be precise, so that the answer can be precise. The question has to be just as important as the answer they come as a conjoined pair, and one without the other would make no sense to anyone. If there is a greater focus on the answer then the entire context is lost and the interpretation without proper context and could never be considered reliable.
I use the Yi, but without asking questions. I use it as a guide.
I discovered, realised, that there were an almost infinite number of possible questions about external matters. And therefore, as there are only 64 hexagrams, that the same exact reading would apply to literally billions of questions. I also realised that even a single matter could be phrased in literally hundreds of different ways, all resulting in a different reading. And that therefore the question was really important to get spot on. But that unless you already knew the answer a question could never be precisely and accurately framed for any external matter.
These restrictions do not apply to the inner world. In fact some might argue that 64 is rather excessive and over indulgent and it is precisely why the ambiguities and lack of clarity exist, because precise rendering of inner matters only deals with a limited number of inner parameters, and expanding those parameters to cover 64 required a lack of precision.
Personally I would take it that the Yi might possibly serve as a valuable transition and the complexity of 64 might allow some degree of generalised associations with the individuals outward actions.
But before the outward extrapolations could even begin there would clearly have to an understanding of the root.
I have a method whereby I use the Yi as a guide. Often as the guide for the day ahead. That requires no questions at all.
And that is entirely inner, with no outer context.

I suppose what I am enquiring is what exactly is the Yi.
I am sure that it can be "used" for external matters, but given the points detailed above, and when combined with the innate human predeliction for belief over fact, and that there have been shown other tools specifically constructed to deal with specific external matters that have been shown to be reliable under those criteria, the symbolic and imprecise nature of the Yi would seem to render it as n instrument of the inner.
Unless of course someone has evidence to show that the Yi is an "it".
 

IrfanK

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I suppose what I am enquiring is what exactly is the Yi.
Come back and let us all know when you've got the definitive answer to your question. It will be fascinating to have it finally all explained in a single post. There's too much beating around the bush in this place.
 

FrankieT

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Well, those are all beliefs, not facts. Some people clearly do believe that the 64 hexagrams do indeed cover every aspect of life. Certainly the authors of the Da Zhuan thought so:


It's pretty much impossible to prove them right or wrong. It's a belief.

Was it Heidegger who was the Christian existentialist? I think he acknowledged that there was absolutely no way to prove that God existed, but that he decided, as an act of free will and choice, to believe anyway. As an act of conscious, deliberate faith. I think his point was that you do decide what you believe in.


Okay, so you've decided what you believe. Cool.
Hi IrfanK. Thanks for your response.
Let me begin with the end of your post. I obviously haven't decided on what I believe. I am anyway asking for fact as that can be the only parameter that makes any sense. No one would be consulting the Yi if they thought that it didnt reveal truth. Truth is at the essence of both the Yi itself and its use.
As a belief is the absence of truth it obviously has no part of the Yi and we can dispense with all beliefs accordingly.
Asking for evidence to substantiate, and resolve any beliefs into known facts, is not expressing an opinion.

Just because Heidegger had no way to prove God does not mean that proof did not exist. He chose a "belief" because the fact that he was ignorant of the truth was untenable for him and he filled the chasm of his emptiness with a belief.

Obviously those that use the Yi for external matters, whether they are long ago in history or today, are going to "believe" that the Yi can be used in that way. But that doesnt make it true.
There seems to be an insurmountable body of evidence to suggest that the Yi was intended as an instrument of the inner world, and that its appearance to make sense of the external is not based on reality.
I am only asking what the evidence to show if the Yi can be treated as an "it". And if so where does that it reside and what might its function be.
 

Trojina

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Hi Trojina.
PLease dont suggest that the Forum is closed. I havent actually had a response to my actual question yet.
And closing the forum would deny many of what they clearly consider important.
I think it's pretty obvious I was jesting. Sarcasm? Of course Hilary isn't going to close the forum because you say no interpretation can take place. But I think you know I was joking

Which is why I am asking if anyone has any evidence as to what the Yi really is. And so the importance of whether it is an outer, or, an outer tool is really important.
Unless we are happy to live in an illusion. But why then would anyone care about anything. Surely it is only because we dont want to be determined by the illusion that we consult the Yi.

Ever heard of 'jukkodave' Frankie? It's just you remind me of him a great deal, your styles are very similar except he was wholly taken up with probability and often was throttling several threads at once with the same questions whilst not really hearing any responses. It was very trying for forum members who were answering genuinely.

Currently you are posting the same repetitive questions across several threads neither of which are yours. There is this one also



Given the extent of your questioning across 2 threads it would be a good idea to start your very own thread solely for the purpose of your questions. That way it saves other threads being totally overrun by your current preoccupation. If you feel unable to start your own threads and post in that the moderators can make a thread for you.
 

FrankieT

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Come back and let us all know when you've got the definitive answer to your question. It will be fascinating to have it finally all explained in a single post. There's too much beating around the bush in this place.
But thats why I am asking. Because after years of trying to work it out on my own, and only being able to come up with various and divergent possibilities, which are nothing other than beliefs, and discovering that there is a Forum where those with far more education and knowledge of the history might be able to shed light on this matter.
What would be the point of a forum where the only discussions were on known subjects.
I dont know where the Yi originates from, if itvis an external it, a guide to the inner, or what. I only that that my understanding would render it difficult if not impossible to be used as an external tool, that it cant be- reliably- used for external matters, and I was wondering if anyone had any facts to help dispel my lack of knowledge.
Thank you
 

FrankieT

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I think it's pretty obvious I was jesting. Sarcasm? Of course Hilary isn't going to close the forum because you say no interpretation can take place. But I think you know I was joking



Ever heard of 'jukkodave' Frankie? It's just you remind me of him a great deal, your styles are very similar except he was wholly taken up with probability and often was throttling several threads at once with the same questions whilst not really hearing any responses. It was very trying for forum members who were answering genuinely.

Currently you are posting the same repetitive questions across several threads neither of which are yours. There is this one also



Given the extent of your questioning across 2 threads it would be a good idea to start your very own thread solely for the purpose of your questions. That way it saves other threads being totally overrun by your current preoccupation. If you feel unable to start your own threads and post in that the moderators can make a thread for you.
Hi Trojina. Aplologies. Not being used to forums, I dont get out much, I took you literally. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
My only reason for posting on more than one thread is because the particular question of water was paramount in my mind, and that led me to the post about foundations,which seemed to me to be the root of the water question. Just waiting for someone to address the actual questions. At the moment everyone seems to be avoiding direct response at all costs.
If there are similarities with my questions, being new to the forum, how wouldI find the posts for jukkodave, did they address answers to my questions?
Thank you.
 

Trojina

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I think you have been here before Dave haven't you..?

It is Dave isn't it?
 

Trojina

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Just waiting for someone to address the actual questions. At the moment everyone seems to be avoiding direct response at all costs.
I don't think you're waiting for any such thing. You have had full and thoughtful answers across both threads now and it is my view you are wasting people's time, not hearing them, just posting the same question over and over again at length.

I think at this point no answer anyone gives will satisfy you which is why, if you wish to continue, your own dedicated thread is necessary. That way it is clearer what you are asking and you won't be asking under the cloak of wholly unrelated thread topics.

If you genuinely want to go deeply into your questions please start your own thread.
 
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