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Blog post: Hexagram 53 musings

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sooo

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It’s interesting to compare this to the hexagram of betrothal: 31, Influence. It also talks of marriage, but from the male perspective

Maybe the Marrying Madman? :rofl:

Seriously, I've enjoyed this blog a great deal. You covered a lot of ground for thought, in a short space.

Let me add another association through these trigram images.

31 - a stable young man makes a place for an impressionable young woman. 'taking that maiden to wife brings good fortune'

53 - a mature woman nurtures a young man, or even a child. 'endurance is dignified'

54 - an elder man tenders a young woman. 'make plans for her future'

Fortune or misfortune can be given a jump start by these beginnings, but life and nature have an amazing ability to adapt (54), and abide in what endures (53).
 

mythili

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The sense I get with 54, in love-relationship readings in today's world, is that it can refer, not just to a soft spot that two people might have for each other, but also to a very deep emotional connection. Thats whats happening on the "inside". On the outside, there is no "contract" to seal this connection. So, although one of the two parties is in a secondary role, the feelings of both parties are real. Whats confusing is whats transitory and whats going to be long-lasting. Perhaps the transitory situation is the present situation, where a formal marriage is not possible, but one must keep the "eternal" in mind as you go through the process of ups and downs - in today's world, a relationship that proceeds in fits and starts, sometimes closeness, sometimes distance. Looking at the optimistic side of 54, and coming back to Anemos' thought about the heroic nature of the people in 54 - I think that both the man and woman might need to be heroic here, not just the woman - perhaps that heroism is whats going to be needed to convert the 54 situation to a 53 situation - and a real grit and determination to stick it out for the long term until the situation turns favorable for both people, and converts the secondary wife to the primary one.

Wilhelm refers to this situation as one that is beyond beginnings and endings, which I sometimes interpret (I dont know if this is correct) to include the pessimistic side of 54 - the side that says it will be limited to the eternal soft spot between the two people, as they go through their own paths in life, with no hope of a formal marriage between them. Line 5 has sometimes been interpreted to mean that this is as far as its going to get - something akin to a very close friendship/affection/love, but nothing more. Even there theres always that tantalizing carrot on a stick - the moon that is nearly full, which means that if you stick it out, it will grow into something wonderful. Its easy to give up in this situation, I suppose one can wait years for a resolution, and perhaps thats why 54 does not usually result in a formal marriage - is there any real life evidence that it does? But theres the "not yet" aspect of it - always the hope. Shucks!
 

mythili

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I think 54.5 can also sometimes be speaking directly to the woman in the secondary role - you may not have the status of the first wife, but retain your dignity! Or, there's no need to sell yourself short just because you're not the primary wife.
 

mythili

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54.5 - Says Yi to the not-yet-married maiden - hang in there, this guy you're so interested in actually prefers you to his wife, AND you have Tang the Completer's blessing. Says the not-yet-married maiden to Yi - then whats taking so long? Yi: Well, Tang the Completer of course, he does things when HE sees fit, and only HE know when THAT will be. (as in 11.5).
 

mythili

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And the other aspect of 54 - where the immature girl (line 1) has to herself grow into the mature woman (line 5) in order to realize the possibilities that do exist in this situation.
 

mythili

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Oh I think I am on a roll now, perhaps it'll crash.
54.5 again - perhaps what that line is saying is that for Tang the completer to make IT happen, the little girl with no real sense of her importance in the relationship has to grow into the mature woman by accepting that she really does mean something to the man - (using traditional roles just as an example) and in so doing develop an internal assurance, instead of remaining helpless - the assurance will most likely show itself in the relationship, which could well turn things around, because the man is question is then less likely to continue treating her as "secondary". I once got this line when I asked what I was doing WRONG in a situation, and it took me a long time to figure it out.
Also, Brad''s take on 54.4 - at hermetica/his book - I thought was a really interesting one. Line 4 is the transition line into the upper trigram - in 54 I think one can read it as the point when the helplessness of the marrying maiden, lines 1-3, can change into her being more in charge of her own destiny. He says at 54.4 that she "appears" (to the man, I think), to not be taking an interest in marriage, but she hasnt yet said a clear no, which is confusing the man, but which also gives the situation hope (I'm hopefully not gigantically misinterpreting this) - and so I wonder if a lot of the delay in 54.4 is due to HER not taking a clear stand but continuing to remain helpless. So perhaps once one gets to the upper trigram in 54, the secondary person IS in a position of creating her own destiny, in this case taking things forward, and a lot of this will occur by her becoming a responsible adult instead of remaining a helpless child. Tang the Completer needs help to bring this to a good conclusion!
 

rodaki

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Maybe for you, but I doubt for me. To see you is a joy.

Are you thinking in something like this... ?

http://www.animationarchive.org/pics/blondie12-big.jpg
(Slow for loading but good to see)

I always remember Blondie, if not my first love, surely one of them.

Sometimes I even feel myself like Dagwood!


All the best,


Charly


P.D.:
H.54, among other things, is on pregnancy as requisite for marriage:

The bride is already pregnant.

Ch.

hmm, Charly, this comic strip can have plenty of meanings . . maybe Blondie is the 'little wife' but it's Dagwood that conforms to her demands . . you might want to rethink this . .

sometimes I think that 54 creates as much discomfort as 44 . . it's certainly a hexagram that causes strong reactions but I feel big part of it is getting lost in the cracks. For example, I see 54 as that period in time when we were newborns: little bundles of sensations and emotions, totally dependent on the mature woman to take care of us, slowly and painfully entering the world of mindful existence . . think about how newborns cry, birth, entering the big reality must be a shocking, uncomfortable experience -at first at least . .

or, a different point, for sometime now I think of myself as 54 when I use the IC -and I don't mean tht I think that I'm selling myself short, but I am admitting that yes, I turn to IC because my inner truth is not as strong or prominent on a specific issue, my critical eye gets blurry, I feel I need something to help me walk a bit more straight so I turn to an ancestress (my grandma let's say) as a girl that needs her larger point of view . . it's a humbling and tender experience at once

having said that, I do see many negative aspects of the hexagram as well and agree with most of what's been said about it already, but I wanted to post something on a positive spin, just for the sake of balance :)
 

charly

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hmm, Charly, this comic strip can have plenty of meanings . . maybe Blondie is the 'little wife' but it's Dagwood that conforms to her demands . . you might want to rethink this . .
... my inner truth is not as strong or prominent on a specific issue, my critical eye gets blurry, I feel I need something to help me walk a bit more straight so I turn to an ancestress (my grandma let's say) as a girl that needs her larger point of view ...
Hi, Dora:

Of course, the little wife is the strongest part, I know.

And you're strong you're. If not in a specific issue (I don't know, but I don't trust it), in the general sense that you're a woman and have a grandma that granted you the special strength that all women enjoy.

I have to read more H.53 and H.54. But things are not what they seem, dont trust in women that sell theirselves. All along the history women have been sold by another persons, sometimes bandits, evil people, even fathers and husbands. Of course, the thuth is always disconfortable, almost tabu.

I don't like traditional interpretations, Legge, Wilhelm, but they knew, they knew...

All the best,


Charly
(Must I say Dagwood?)
 

rodaki

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Hi, Dora:

Of course, the little wife is the strongest part, I know.


ehmm, no, I wouldn't say so . . for me when 54 situations come to who's stronger it's a lose-lose situation . .
 

Trojina

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The sense I get with 54, in love-relationship readings in today's world, is that it can refer, not just to a soft spot that two people might have for each other, but also to a very deep emotional connection. Thats whats happening on the "inside". On the outside, there is no "contract" to seal this connection. So, although one of the two parties is in a secondary role, the feelings of both parties are real. Whats confusing is whats transitory and whats going to be long-lasting. Perhaps the transitory situation is the present situation, where a formal marriage is not possible, but one must keep the "eternal" in mind as you go through the process of ups and downs - in today's world, a relationship that proceeds in fits and starts, sometimes closeness, sometimes distance. Looking at the optimistic side of 54, and coming back to Anemos' thought about the heroic nature of the people in 54 - I think that both the man and woman might need to be heroic here, not just the woman - perhaps that heroism is whats going to be needed to convert the 54 situation to a 53 situation - and a real grit and determination to stick it out for the long term until the situation turns favorable for both people, and converts the secondary wife to the primary one.

Wilhelm refers to this situation as one that is beyond beginnings and endings, which I sometimes interpret (I dont know if this is correct) to include the pessimistic side of 54 - the side that says it will be limited to the eternal soft spot between the two people, as they go through their own paths in life, with no hope of a formal marriage between them. Line 5 has sometimes been interpreted to mean that this is as far as its going to get - something akin to a very close friendship/affection/love, but nothing more. Even there theres always that tantalizing carrot on a stick - the moon that is nearly full, which means that if you stick it out, it will grow into something wonderful. Its easy to give up in this situation, I suppose one can wait years for a resolution, and perhaps thats why 54 does not usually result in a formal marriage - is there any real life evidence that it does? But theres the "not yet" aspect of it - always the hope. Shucks!

But one can be in a 54 situation whilst in a 'formal marriage'. I think 54 is not just about the outer status of a relationship. In an emotional question theres generally an inner mismatch about the importance of the relationship, one person valuing it more than the other...with variations in the lines as you said of course. But in the final line, line 6, when there is a contract, well a ceremony anyway, theres absolutely no real feeling.

Would one want to transform a 54 scenario into a 53 one ?...Each is as it is isn't it. One isn't better or more 'positive' than the other IMO its just a matter of standing in one place rather than another in relation to the question you asked. Admittedly some places feel alot better to know you are standing in than others... but the main point of asking Yi is to know where you are so getting a 54 re a relationship isn't a final pronouncement on the relationship...just telling you where you are now.

The main point/question I wanted to bring up in my earlier post was that I don't see Hilarys idea of 'joining something larger than oneself' in the text of the Yi for 53 or 54. She explained she saw marriage as 'joining with something larger than oneself'...so her post ran along with her perception (naturally). I was only saying 'where ?' in the text is the idea in 53 and 54 marriage is joining you to something larger than yourself....is it not just a contract, (and I have gotten 53 numerous times re contractual things and not got any larger ;)) Its just nit picking really, but its a particular nit I've come across a few times before so I thought I'd voice it. Historically for most societies wasn't the purpose of marriage all about properties and heirs and all the pragmatic reasons rather than emotional fulfillment/personal expansion ? I think it was...am assuming it probably was in ancient China though i don't know. So my point was when Hilary was saying 'larger than oneself' did she mean in an ontological sense or just the physical as in 'I share my money property with your family in marriage so become larger'

Of course in becoming part of the family and combining wealth etc the young girl would as likley get smaller (in her being) rather than larger. If joining institutions through contracts like marriage makes one become larger...in what sense ?
 
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Trojina

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I think one of the difficulties in discussing 54 is, like 44, people get sidetracked by the role of actual women in marriages/realtionships etc etc in our time whereas surely what we really need to know is what marriage signified for women at the time the Yi was created not our ideas about it now...which is why I was questioning Hilarys idea of what marriage meant.
 
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Trojina

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‘Gradual advance. The woman marries.
Good fortune.
Constancy bears fruit.’

Hexagrams 53 and 54, Gradual Advance and the Marrying Maiden, are what Stephen Karcher calls ‘The Great Marriages’. So what does ‘marriage’ mean?

To a large extent, that depends on your perspective: in old China, marriage for the man means opening his home to a newcomer and all the change she will bring, while marriage for the woman (as in this hexagram pair) means coming home into a new place. Those are two quite different experiences that work quite differently as images in readings. But in the most general terms, marriage means joining, becoming part of something larger than you are, to some extent merging your identity into it, so that your growth and its growth coincide.


Enough musings for now. Thoughts?

I guess in a nutshell thats the statement I question. Is there a big difference in how H means marriage and how its meant in the text of 54 in the Yi
 

hilary

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It´s LOVE that leads to marriage and not marriage that leads to love.
I wouldn't bet on that. Both from what little I've heard of arranged marriages, and from the direction of 53, especially its 6th line.

I'm reading this and wondering what is the difference of this to a positive spin of 54? accepting that we are the little wife in the face of a larger scheme?
That's how I see 54, at least in the version with positive spin. There's nothing bad about being a small element in something larger than we are... we're always part of something larger than we are. Only in 54, positive spin or not, you get reminded of that rather more forcibly than is comfortable.
I have got stuck on your idea of this before. "joining, becoming part of something larger than you are " ? Depends how you are defining the 'you' here. We can sit alone and meditate and merge and become part of something 'larger', we don't need a contract for that.
Yes... but I think to grow into it takes time, goes gradually, step by step. After you've meditated and merged in the moment, you'll still need to get up and put the bin out for collection. To be 'merged' or still in the process merging while you put the bin out, iron the dinner and cook the laundry... that probably does require a kind of contract, a long term commitment.
For me 54 is all about a contract one is basically drawn to either through necessity or desire. Why else would anyone sell themselves short ? One will be sold short in 54, Wilhelm says "Undertakings bring misfortune, nothing that would further.". Desire plays a big part in 54 which is what I link Wilhelms 54 Image to "Thus the superior man Understands the transitory In the light of the eternity of the end"

I take it as 'desire is temporary don't enter into a contract for the sake of this'. Necessity though can give one no choice other than to subjugate and shrink oneself in order to accomodate the will of another. If we want something/someone we will do that accomodating, if we need them we will do that...but it is hardly a path of spiritual transcendence. 'Joining with something larger' implies to me a loftier goal, more spritual values etc etc so I'm saying I don't see the contract in 54 as promoting that. I see 53 as also about a contract...but one it pays one to stick with, to go through all the slow motions of the progress.

OK, I don't see 54 quite like Wilhelm does. I don't find the juvenile desire and self-gratification and stuff. 'Undertakings' are also known as 'setting out' and trying to fix things and assert control, like sending out the army to civilise the borders and introduce them to your way of doing things. So that's not all undertakings, but a particular kind that involve fixing people and things according to your way of seeing. Not going to work.

As for selling yourself short... that's the negative experience of 54. You're becoming part of something where you'll be a small, junior, lesser part. The question is what size the 'something' is.

I agree that very often it's tiny, inadequate, and you get things like that classic 54 scenario of a woman making all her happiness dependent on some man for whom she comes a very, very distant second. But once in a while it can be something bigger - you can get line 5, for instance. Second wife might give birth to the heir after all. I've seen lots of depressing 54 situations and the occasional life-expanding one.

...I think of 53 as the phrase "terms and conditions apply" the endless spheel at the end of any contract you sign ( that people never read). 53 takes a long time because the metaphorical 'terms and conditions' are there to get through. Matters re 54 readings can be very quick, no terms and conditions to wade through. Its like the difference between employing virtual slave labour for minimum pay...easy come easy go for the employer, no protection for the employee, quick turnover possible (hex 54) and a employing someone in a long term position where they are guaranteed certain securities...buthave to go through long drawn out form filling and interviews and signing of terms and conditions to get there.
Wow, how depressing. Surely marriage can mean a bit more than that?

(*leaping about waving hands in air and pointing to line 6*)
Neither of these scenarios to me really mean joining/merging with something larger than oneself as one isn't merging ones self just making a contract.
Well, yes, you could be. Usual problem with going for the big metaphysical stuff in a hexagram: next time you see it it will be telling you about postal delays or something. But... well, I just think marriage means a merging-expanding of identity.

But then I'm not clear how you are using this idea of merging with something larger than oneself. In what sense ? To answer that you'd have to say what you meant by 'oneself'. As I said earlier to transcend limits of what you might see as ones little ego self then no contract/marriage would really be needed for that.....indeed most often it would seem an impediment to it lol
I suppose I'm being a bit less enlightened/transcendent... thinking just of how x becomes part of the great clan of y. In that nice, simple sense x just became part of something bigger. All the more so if she goes on to bear children who maybe renew the mandate of heaven and found a dynasty along the way. From the point of view of a society resting on ancestor worship, connected to heaven via a chain of ancestral spirits, being someone's mother is an expansive thing to do. Staying in your parents' home as someone's daughter is not.

Fortunately all these things are fun to translate into metaphors.

The joining-merging-expanding idea of marriage probably came together out of a bunch of lines... hard to find its roots... 38.6 is one of them, certainly, and 11.5, and things that Wu Jing Nuan says about hexagram 3... erm, all thoroughly amorphous and woolly.
 

Trojina

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OK, I don't see 54 quite like Wilhelm does. I don't find the juvenile desire and self-gratification and stuff. 'Undertakings' are also known as 'setting out' and trying to fix things and assert control, like sending out the army to civilise the borders and introduce them to your way of doing things. So that's not all undertakings, but a particular kind that involve fixing people and things according to your way of seeing. Not going to work.

oh...its just i notice how often 54 will come up over purchases in readings (not just my own)..maybe the larger thing one is seeking to be part of there is a sold image/capitalism..or something but I've never much associated 54 coming up with the wish to bring order


As for selling yourself short... that's the negative experience of 54. You're becoming part of something where you'll be a small, junior, lesser part. The question is what size the 'something' is.

I agree that very often it's tiny, inadequate, and you get things like that classic 54 scenario of a woman making all her happiness dependent on some man for whom she comes a very, very distant second. But once in a while it can be something bigger - you can get line 5, for instance. Second wife might give birth to the heir after all. I've seen lots of depressing 54 situations and the occasional life-expanding one.

Yes the 'size' can be the size of your usefulness to someone/something else which serves nothing bigger than their convenience. Which isn't to say it never serves anything bigger though I can't recall seeing any readings where it does. I shall be looking out for 54.5 eagerly.

Wow, how depressing. Surely marriage can mean a bit more than that?

(*leaping about waving hands in air and pointing to line 6*)

I don't think I was talking about marriage in the quote you are referring to...just using contracts as one example of how differences in 53 and 54 might look.

Well, yes, you could be. Usual problem with going for the big metaphysical stuff in a hexagram: next time you see it it will be telling you about postal delays or something. But... well, I just think marriage means a merging-expanding of identity.[/

Ah well I see, its your personal view not something you get from Yi. Well agreed obviously expanding a dynasty is desirable in Yi terms but to me thats quite a different thing from merging in a personal sense of expanding identity which is how you seem to be putting it. Expanding dynasties is about politics and possessions and power rather than expansion of personal identity in the terms we might think of it if we coming from our 21st century psycho/spiritual angle. Expanding identity and expanding status aren't the same. Infact the Taoist view of marriage wouldn't be much to do with merging identity either would it ? No idea, out of my depth there but I thought Taoism was based on following natural order and the 'merging' bit sounded a bit too mystical for Taoism.... thats why i was questioning it. yet turns out you never meant it in a mystical sense in the first place, more of a practical one....possibly

I suppose I'm being a bit less enlightened/transcendent... thinking just of how x becomes part of the great clan of y. In that nice, simple sense x just became part of something bigger. All the more so if she goes on to bear children who maybe renew the mandate of heaven and found a dynasty along the way. From the point of view of a society resting on ancestor worship, connected to heaven via a chain of ancestral spirits, being someone's mother is an expansive thing to do. Staying in your parents' home as someone's daughter is not.

Fortunately all these things are fun to translate into metaphors.

The joining-merging-expanding idea of marriage probably came together out of a bunch of lines... hard to find its roots... 38.6 is one of them, certainly, and 11.5, and things that Wu Jing Nuan says about hexagram 3... erm, all thoroughly amorphous and woolly.

its not how many people feel about their inlaws...or their clans :rofl: thank goodness for 56, the young maiden...and the young man can drop the basket in 54.6 and hit the road again and leave someone else to merge with the inlaws...if it all gets too much.

Of course as the ancient chinese didn't celebrate xmas they may probably have had less trouble with that kind of merging than we do
 
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heylise

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Some first-hand experience: 45 years ago I became part of something bigger than me. The most inferior part. Slowly I climbed up, higher than I could ever have climbed on my own.
 

mythili

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Was just talking to a colleague who told me that a fellow scientist from the UK was now spending a lot of time in the US, with his now girlfriend - a woman scientist who he has known for 15 years, but with whom he took up only two years ago after leaving his wife. He waited till his children had grown up and left home before getting the divorce. His girlfriend is actually slightly older than him. This must have been a 54 situation, for both him and his girlfriend, and 54.5 might probably have come up often had they cast the IChing. Now probably, and hopefully, they are in the 53 state. S my friend commented, "you cant help whom you love".
 

charly

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[Originally Posted by charly View Post
It´s LOVE that leads to marriage and not marriage that leads to love. ]

I wouldn't bet on that. Both from what little I've heard of arranged marriages, and from the direction of 53, especially its 6th line.
Hi, Hilary:

Of course, every ancient chinese knew wahat was the position of women in marriage. That decissions were taken by the parents looking for family interests, even dynastic interest when kings or nobles.

But why to write the Changes for telling what even illiterate people knew?

For these matters there were texts of philosophy or laws.

Think at the supply of tombs:

* Kings had skulls, servants, concubines, horses, charriots, weapons, jewels, clothes.

* Important people had figurines, jewels, clothes, almanacks.

* Only maybe a philosopher would prefer the YI together with the DAO DE JING, books of medicine and bedchamber arts.

That people have another interests, another things to say, another things to write.

The Shi Jing, althoug edited and expurged, complained bitterly against kings and nobles while all people knew what dangerous they were.

I BELIEVE THAT THE RECEIVED TEXT NEEDS NO RECONSTRUCTION, LITTLE HISTORICAL OR CULTURAL CONTEXTUALIZATION BUT A CAREFUL READING.

READING BETWEEN LINES, SENSITIVE WITH METAPHORS, PARALLELLISMS AND COMPARISONS, WITHOUT BEING TOO SYMBOLICAL.

The YI has survived until our time because he don't tells you what the customs command, what the low or the stablishment expects of you. There are other books for it. The YI don't tells you that must be submissive with your parents or your husband. Don't tells you that the powerful is always good.

But during centuries cohorts of commentarist tells people that sort of things, sometimes willingly sometimes not.

First of all we need to close our ears to that whispering voices and open our eyes and read WHAT IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN IN THE TEXT THAT WE CAN READ.

Dangerous, of course.

When Fray Luis de León applied similar principles to his translation of the Song of Songs, payed his sin with years of prison.


If you don't bet on love and freedom instead of on war and oppesion, who would go to do it?

Idealization is to lie oneself, too different from to hold ideals. I don't like idealizations, I like the right of reading by our own eyes.

If we commit mistakes, nobody's perfect, we will pay for it.

But if not, we will pay for the lies that we would have believed.


Yours,

Charly


P.D.
I agree with you in almost all that you said before.
Ch.
 
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bamboo

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Charlie, the "nitty-gritty" is when you get down to the harsh realities of a situation, iow, when the honeymoon is over...

"Picture a little love-nest
Down where the roses cling,
Picture that same sweet love-nest
Think what a year can bring..
He's washing dishes
And baby clothes
He's so ambitious
He even sews
So don't forget, folks
THat's what you get folks
FOr makin' whoopee..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TULYBRHBAs

except in the song scenario, the man is in the 54 position;)
 
S

sooo

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Obviously the maiden doesn't always refer to a female, any more than the great man only refers to a male. It refers to the maiden nature of all the stuff that's been mentioned, in ones own sphere.

What I rarely get from 53 is a sense of alone-ness or loneliness, exception being line 4, where the webbed footed transient withdraws in a safe and hidden spot. If that same loose goose were to be given or find dry shelter and some food, even though out of his element (54), he'd get by .

I've noticed that when I was in a 54 state of mind or actual circumstance, it was usually when I've retreated from the flock: be it a company, club, religious group or family.

The fallen one, or prodigal's son, pops into mind. I associate my 54's probably more with losing streaks, in contrast with 53's optimism of making it as a team, which means flying as one. So even in 53 there is 54. A single feather must hold its own weight, given a helpful breeze. But if it finally falls alone, maybe it can be used for a nest or pillow.

Eternity in the hands of Dao; nothing with or without purpose.
 

rodaki

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I

That's how I see 54, at least in the version with positive spin. There's nothing bad about being a small element in something larger than we are... we're always part of something larger than we are. Only in 54, positive spin or not, you get reminded of that rather more forcibly than is comfortable.


true, but it depends on how bound I am to my comfort . . the more I try to enforce it the more I get uncomfortable . . the way I see it, 54 feels most uncomfortable when, as you mentioned, we hold on too much on having one's way (which usually happens because we already feel threatened and potentially overpowered). I don't think it's surprising that one of 54's worst lines has to do with handling power (3rd)

it happens a lot in the classroom too: if I try to enforce the schedule I have in mind despite the class atmosphere, then I'm bound to become 54 just because kids will find it to be a contest of sorts and no matter how hard I try I cannot overpower a group of 20 kids . . if I respect and allow their needs to be expressed too, we might not do all I wanted but things will not be thwarted either . . In general, I find that 54 is where you can't have the cake and eat it too . . something's got to give on both sides; being ready to make the concession saves one from further trouble and helps towards 54.5. What's more, in the end one might find that what was given up was nothing that serious or grave after all, more of a childish game or a false perception of sorts (6th line)


Another related positive aspect of 54 that I can find is that of being a host: doing so means that one has to withstand a lack of control and take the back or supporting seat for the sake of their guests. In this case, the host's comfort will be directly dependent to the character of the guests and there will always be a risk of serious trouble with new people, but it's the risk one takes in full awareness and for good reasons

I think it's good to see that 54 is not always such a heavy situation: as any other hexagram it is neither negative nor positive on its own . . it's likely that in most cases, it is we that turn it into a hard place just by being too ready to feel attacked
 

charly

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Charlie, the "nitty-gritty" is when you get down to the harsh realities of a situation, iow, when the honeymoon is over...
...
except in the song scenario, the man is in the 54 position;)

Thanks, Barbara.

But in what position do you see the man in H.54?

I remember better H.53: each line begins with the same three characters:

hong2: eastern bean goose / great, large goose // swan /
jian4: to soak / to wet / to imbue / to impregnate / (1)
yu2: at / to / into /

I see in each line a GANDER making «JIAN» in different places and maybe POSITIONS.

Of course, if the GANDER is making JIAN there have to be also a GOOSE.

This guy, the gander, is for chinese a model of husband, he is monogamous!

In what position was the gander and in what position was the goose in ancient China?


Yours,


Charly

_______________________
(1) These weere the earlier meanings of JIAN, as can be seen in the Book of Odes, where I believe that Legge translated it as WETTING. Also in Schuessler. The sense of gradually going forward was acquired maybe from the Great Treatise, but even there is clear the sense of MAKING PREGNANT.
 

charly

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I wouldn't bet on that. Both from what little I've heard of arranged marriages, and from the direction of 53, especially its 6th line.
...
Hi, Hilary:

What happens with 53.6?

It begins whith the gander making JIAN over the land:
like in ancient agrarian rites.

hong2: big goose / gander
jian4: soaking / imbuing / impregnating
yu2: at / in / into
lu4: land / shore

It follows speking not about human beings, but about the same gander, I believe:

qi2: its
yu3: feather
ke3: can / may / able / suitable
yong4: to use / to apply
wei2: to serve as / to become
yi2: rite / cremony

GANDER SOAKING AT [THE] LAND
The guy is soaking over the ground.

[Time passess ... ]

IT'S FEATHERS CAN BE USED TO SERVE AS CEREMONIAL
His feathers [only?] suitable for ritual uses.

After making JIAN, the gander will COME USELESS for any profitable work,
his feathers only for ceremonial [decorative] use.

MAYBE THE GANDER WAS PERFORMING A GREAT SACRIFICE!

Something to do with marriage?
Of course, if one is willing to call MARRIAGE this performance. (1)

Geese are monogamous and hyerarchical but do they marry?

Yours,


Charly

______________________
(1) joining and merging indeed.
 

lasublime

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I have got stuck on your idea of this before. "joining, becoming part of something larger than you are " ? Depends how you are defining the 'you' here. We can sit alone and meditate and merge and become part of something 'larger', we don't need a contract for that. For me 54 is all about a contract one is basically drawn to either through necessity or desire. Why else would anyone sell themselves short ? One will be sold short in 54, Wilhelm says "Undertakings bring misfortune, nothing that would further.". Desire plays a big part in 54 which is what I link Wilhelms 54 Image to "Thus the superior man Understands the transitory In the light of the eternity of the end"

I take it as 'desire is temporary don't enter into a contract for the sake of this'. Necessity though can give one no choice other than to subjugate and shrink oneself in order to accomodate the will of another. If we want something/someone we will do that accomodating, if we need them we will do that...but it is hardly a path of spiritual transcendence. 'Joining with something larger' implies to me a loftier goal, more spritual values etc etc so I'm saying I don't see the contract in 54 as promoting that. I see 53 as also about a contract...but one it pays one to stick with, to go through all the slow motions of the progress.




Same thought arises for me re 54. I've never known it to indicate something one isn't 'ready for and must 'grow into'. This is a contract where by its nature there won't be much room for your growth. What you are saying abut 54 doesn't tie in with all the 54 readings I've ever seen....to date.

53, another contract but one you can enter into without lopping bits of self off for the convenience of the contract.....I think of 53 as the phrase "terms and conditions apply" the endless spheel at the end of any contract you sign ( that people never read). 53 takes a long time because the metaphorical 'terms and conditions' are there to get through. Matters re 54 readings can be very quick, no terms and conditions to wade through. Its like the difference between employing virtual slave labour for minimum pay...easy come easy go for the employer, no protection for the employee, quick turnover possible (hex 54) and a employing someone in a long term position where they are guaranteed certain securities...buthave to go through long drawn out form filling and interviews and signing of terms and conditions to get there.

Neither of these scenarios to me really mean joining/merging with something larger than oneself as one isn't merging ones self just making a contract. But then I'm not clear how you are using this idea of merging with something larger than oneself. In what sense ? To answer that you'd have to say what you meant by 'oneself'. As I said earlier to transcend limits of what you might see as ones little ego self then no contract/marriage would really be needed for that.....indeed most often it would seem an impediment to it lol
Yes, that idea about joining or becoming a part of something bigger than “you” gives me pause. What is bigger than me? I find this idea negating. Rather I would think it is about réalisation, an understanding that indeed you are already big.
 

Trojina

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The post you quoted of mine is 11 years old, from 2010 ! The thread is from 2010 !
 

Trojina

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But ir means rereading the thread to know what the comment is about and I don't want to have to reread what I wrote 11 years ago. It would have been infantile babble, I was only 50 years old then.
 

my_key

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But ir means rereading the thread to know what the comment is about and I don't want to have to reread what I wrote 11 years ago. It would have been infantile babble, I was only 50 years old then.
It may have been 'infantile babble' but perhaps it it has become more like a fine wine. Becoming richer and taking on other qualities as it has been sitting in it's barrel undisturbed for 10 years.
 

Trojina

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I wouldn't know I can't stand to look at my old posts. And who wants to go back to an 11 year old conversation if it means rereading the whole to find out what you said and what you meant.

Imagine if it were like that in real life, imagine if someone could pick up something you uttered 12 years ago and just continue the conversation from where it was up to then. You'd have to go back and re hear the entire conversation and then you might think 'what kind of fool said that' and then you might find it was you and you'd have to 'remount' the conversation as if you'd been jousting 12 years ago, fell asleep then someone poked you with a bayonet or a spear and you had to remember the whole game/jousting match and what part you played in it. I imagine reincarnation may be something like that except you don't remember what was said you just end up mid conversation.
 
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my_key

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I wouldn't know I can't stand to look at my old posts. And who wants to go back to an 11 year old conversation if it means rereading the whole to find out what you said and what you meant.
Maybe it's just enough to recognise that someone else has found that comment inspiring enough to make a comment, without having to resurrect the whole conversation.
Imagine if it were like that in real life, imagine if someone could pick up something you uttered 12 years ago and just continue the conversation from where it was up to then.
Isn't life just one long conversation? Where does one conversation end and the next begin - I wonder?

You'd have to go back and re hear the entire conversation and then you might think 'what kind of fool said that' and then you might find it was you and you'd have to 'remount' the conversation as if you'd been jousting 12 years ago, fell asleep then someone poked you with a bayonet or a spear and you had to remember the whole game/jousting match and what part you played in it.
I'm not so sure it is about remounting but more a case of getting on a new mount. And what's more we have had a major internal and external refit. This upgraded version is also now adorned in a different suit of armour.

How cool is that !!!!

I imagine reincarnation may be something like that except you don't remember what was said you just end up mid conversation.
Does anything really just end up mid conversation? Maybe everything just flows from peak to trough, from then to now and perhaps even onwards to then and beyond.

@ Hilary makes a good point around 'having conversations slowly' after all ' How long is a piece of string?'

...or it may be nothing like that at all.
 

dfreed

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Hilary makes a good point around 'having conversations slowly' after all ' How long is a piece of string?'
I suppose there is no one answer to how long a piece of string is - maybe a few microns long, like in a virus or maybe it's like 'string theory' (or what I imagine that might be) which is thought to "describe an enormous landscape of possible universes".

But I can imagine conversations or musing about 53 lasting at least a few thousand years. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall and seen (or heard) those old threads and postings! I'm sure those early diviners and shamans had lots of insightful things to share with us! Or maybe some or all of them were rank beginners at some point, and made lots of mistakes and bad interpretations .... just like some people we may know (when we look in the mirror)?

And, I can see the t-shirt:

"I tried to imagine what the early diviners said, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt with 'Hexagram 53' written on it!"
 
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